| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/15/2010 06:09:44 AM · #876 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
You've wrongly assumed I'm a Christian. I am, in fact, an atheist, as stated here and elsewhere :)
I specifically asked about Santa for a reason. As I've noted, Shannon (and I'm not singling him out here, I've heard plenty of other people do the same) has compared the Christian God to Santa Claus. I'm making an assumption here that he doesn't teach his children to be Christians, but what about Santa? |
It is my understanding (and I could be mistaken) that Shannon's kids go to a Catholic or other Christian school. At least I seem to remember him explaining that in another thread quite awhile back. By now he may have found a reputable atheist school for them. ;-)
I love scanning through this thread. Who knew atheists could be so entertaining? Carry on. and on. and on. :) |
|
|
|
12/15/2010 09:06:30 AM · #877 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
You've wrongly assumed I'm a Christian. I am, in fact, an atheist, as stated here and elsewhere :)
I specifically asked about Santa for a reason. As I've noted, Shannon (and I'm not singling him out here, I've heard plenty of other people do the same) has compared the Christian God to Santa Claus. I'm making an assumption here that he doesn't teach his children to be Christians, but what about Santa? |
Given that santa is pretty harmless (though don't get me started on reindeer rights) I suspect that most normal people would embrace santa regardless of their attitude to gods.
Teaching a child that if they do not believe in Jesus and/or comply with a number of arbitrary and unachievable rules that they will go to hell for eternity, and pretending that it is a fact rather than unsubstantiated belief, and sustaining that position throughout their childhood, is tantamount to child abuse.
My other question remains for any christians: Do you include Santa, Christmas trees, Yule logs, mistletoe and other pagan elements in your Christmas celebrations, and how do you reconcile that with monotheism and a strict obligation not to use idols in the worship of god? Are they worth the risk of eternal damnation?
|
|
|
|
12/15/2010 09:23:11 AM · #878 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Kelli's post gets the friendly eye roll for the day.
Ray, I think you are actually right about Mousie's word. "Most faithful". That makes sense. But I like my definition better and I think I've just coined a new word for y'all... |
At least it was friendly. ;D
In case you haven't realized I really don't take any of this seriously. Everyone believes something different and that will never change. |
|
|
|
12/15/2010 12:08:17 PM · #879 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
My other question remains for any christians: Do you include Santa, Christmas trees, Yule logs, mistletoe and other pagan elements in your Christmas celebrations, and how do you reconcile that with monotheism and a strict obligation not to use idols in the worship of god? Are they worth the risk of eternal damnation? |
No more than the last time you uttered "Oh my God!" or "Egads" or "Gosh" conflicted with own stated beliefs. The origin of something is often unimportant if it's been absorbed into something else. |
|
|
|
12/15/2010 01:39:09 PM · #880 |
I used fatheist in this sense:
1. (noun) Any person who believes in a supernatural super-being (like a god or gods) that supposedly created or had a hand in creating the universe, despite the lack of evidence for the existence of any such being. (Faitheists, Faitheism, Faitheistic)
2. The opposite of "atheist".
On to the question!
My family celebrates Christmas, the secular family, food, and gift giving holiday. It's like Easter, the secular egg hunt and candy basket holiday. Personally, I switched to celebrating Xmas years ago, the gen-X secular family, food, and gift-giving holiday.
I do listen to and have a fondness for some Jesus-themed Xmas music, but prefer music like Sufjan Steven's 'Songs For Christmas' which, while having a religions bent, includes 'secular' tracks like "Christmas In July", "Sister Winter", and "The Winter Solstice". Then there's my mother's favorite "A Calypso Christmas"!
Does it surprise people that an athiest can like Xmas? It shouldn't... Christians like Xmas trees, yule logs, mistletoe, wreathes, and all sorts of other pagan crap.
|
|
|
|
12/15/2010 01:45:33 PM · #881 |
Faitheist
3. (noun) Any person who rejects the belief in a supernatural being and feels compelled to spread the "good news" about their rejection. See Hitchens, Christopher.
:D
EDIT: Fixed spelling per Robert!
Message edited by author 2010-12-15 16:26:55. |
|
|
|
12/15/2010 03:25:08 PM · #882 |
| Actually, he's spreading the bad news that religion is toxic. A kind of fair warning to the intellectually honest. |
|
|
|
12/15/2010 03:57:34 PM · #883 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Actually, he's spreading the bad news that religion is toxic. A kind of fair warning to the intellectually honest. |
Keep your proselytizing opinions to yourself, Faitheist!
:D Nice! It works! LOL. (I'm so kidding in this post! Just had to say this for the obtuse.)
Message edited by author 2010-12-15 16:26:36. |
|
|
|
12/15/2010 04:15:07 PM · #884 |
Let's distinguish between "faitheist" (opposite of atheist etc) and "faithiest" (most faithy of the group), guys :-)
As you were!
R. |
|
|
|
12/15/2010 07:04:15 PM · #885 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Louis:
Actually, he's spreading the bad news that religion is toxic. A kind of fair warning to the intellectually honest. |
Keep your proselytizing opinions to yourself, Faitheist!
:D Nice! It works! LOL. (I'm so kidding in this post! Just had to say this for the obtuse.) |
Be quiet fakeist!
Don't bother looking it up Doc. Unlike your newly adopted catch-phrase, mine wasn't found on the net. :þ
I did find this though.
Fakeism;
the opposite of realism in drawing.
I'd say the italicized part describes your beliefs quite well, no? :0 |
|
|
|
12/15/2010 08:24:52 PM · #886 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Louis:
Actually, he's spreading the bad news that religion is toxic. A kind of fair warning to the intellectually honest. |
Keep your proselytizing opinions to yourself, Faitheist!
:D Nice! It works! LOL. (I'm so kidding in this post! Just had to say this for the obtuse.) |
Be quiet fakeist!
Don't bother looking it up Doc. Unlike your newly adopted catch-phrase, mine wasn't found on the net. :þ
I did find this though.
Fakeism;
the opposite of realism in drawing.
I'd say the italicized part describes your beliefs quite well, no? :0 |
Does the emboldened part describe your beliefs? Just curious...
People keep doing that so I thought I'd give it a try :O |
|
|
|
12/20/2010 11:15:59 PM · #887 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
My other question remains for any christians: Do you include Santa, Christmas trees, Yule logs, mistletoe and other pagan elements in your Christmas celebrations, and how do you reconcile that with monotheism and a strict obligation not to use idols in the worship of god? Are they worth the risk of eternal damnation? |
Santa: No, don't need to start believing in something that isn't real. But we do celebrate Saint Nicholas' feast day on Dec 6th.
Christmas Tree: Yes, but it's really a plastic. I can't bring myself to cut down a tree every year and throw it away.
Yule Logs: Nope. Never got into that tradition.
Mistletoe: If some kid is selling it when we go looking at Christmas Lights.
How do I reconcile these with a monotheistic religion? Simple, I don't think Saint Nicholas, a tree, a log nor mistletoe are gods to give worship to. If you did think mistletoe was a god, then that would be something else.
There are plenty of pagan elements in the world and I'm sure some of them overlap. Here's other thing Christians do that pagans also do:
Light Candles
Celebrate Feast days
Read from books
Sing and dance
|
|
|
|
12/20/2010 11:42:19 PM · #888 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
There are plenty of pagan elements in the world and I'm sure some of them overlap. |
You will find that a great many Christian traditions were adopted from pagan rituals.
Ray |
|
|
|
12/21/2010 07:25:56 AM · #889 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
How do I reconcile these with a monotheistic religion? Simple, I don't think Saint Nicholas, a tree, a log nor mistletoe are gods to give worship to. If you did think mistletoe was a god, then that would be something else. |
It was the principle, not the specifics that I was arguing. *You* don't think that carrying out rituals with a pagan origin is problematic, but then as we've discussed many times, there's no reliable indicator of the relative importance of this to the Christian god.
I consistently find amazing the doublethink required to be a Christian (or most other religions for that matter). If you *really* believed that you faced eternal damnation for failure to implement every aspect of the biblical requirement, then surely you would take absolutely no chances whatsoever? Instead, we get a steady stream of people saying "I think that as long as I do A B or C then doing X Y or Z (which might conceivably cause god to damn me to eternal hell) is probably okay".
Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that puritanism and extremism isn't more prevalent. But it just astonishes me that people claim to believe wholeheartedly and yet introduce pagan paraphernalia into their homes, or have enough cash to buy expensive cameras when they have neighbours who are more needy.
|
|
|
|
12/21/2010 03:04:17 PM · #890 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
But it just astonishes me that people ... have enough cash to buy expensive cameras when they have neighbours who are more needy. |
I've always found it odd that there is no great Christian crusade to do away with capitalism, a system which has as its core precept the idea that the best motivator for "progress" is personal greed, and which has as its ultimate goal the acquisition of great individual wealth. |
|
|
|
12/21/2010 03:07:48 PM · #891 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by Matthew:
My other question remains for any christians: Do you include Santa, Christmas trees, Yule logs, mistletoe and other pagan elements in your Christmas celebrations, and how do you reconcile that with monotheism and a strict obligation not to use idols in the worship of god? Are they worth the risk of eternal damnation? |
Santa: No, don't need to start believing in something that isn't real. But we do celebrate Saint Nicholas' feast day on Dec 6th.
Christmas Tree: Yes, but it's really a plastic. I can't bring myself to cut down a tree every year and throw it away.
Yule Logs: Nope. Never got into that tradition.
Mistletoe: If some kid is selling it when we go looking at Christmas Lights.
How do I reconcile these with a monotheistic religion? Simple, I don't think Saint Nicholas, a tree, a log nor mistletoe are gods to give worship to. If you did think mistletoe was a god, then that would be something else.
There are plenty of pagan elements in the world and I'm sure some of them overlap. Here's other thing Christians do that pagans also do:
Light Candles
Celebrate Feast days
Read from books
Sing and dance |
Oh, the irony. :D |
|
|
|
12/21/2010 06:26:34 PM · #892 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by Nullix:
How do I reconcile these with a monotheistic religion? Simple, I don't think Saint Nicholas, a tree, a log nor mistletoe are gods to give worship to. If you did think mistletoe was a god, then that would be something else. |
It was the principle, not the specifics that I was arguing. *You* don't think that carrying out rituals with a pagan origin is problematic, but then as we've discussed many times, there's no reliable indicator of the relative importance of this to the Christian god.
I consistently find amazing the doublethink required to be a Christian (or most other religions for that matter). If you *really* believed that you faced eternal damnation for failure to implement every aspect of the biblical requirement, then surely you would take absolutely no chances whatsoever? Instead, we get a steady stream of people saying "I think that as long as I do A B or C then doing X Y or Z (which might conceivably cause god to damn me to eternal hell) is probably okay".
Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that puritanism and extremism isn't more prevalent. But it just astonishes me that people claim to believe wholeheartedly and yet introduce pagan paraphernalia into their homes, or have enough cash to buy expensive cameras when they have neighbours who are more needy. |
You might find Paul's (the apostle) comments on eating meat sacrificed to idols to be relavent to this discussion. 1 Corinthians 10. Secondly, most Christians do not view their salvation in light of being required to keep the law pefectly. Their salvation is based on their faith in Jesus. Put those two together and I think your concerns about the "doublethink" required to be unfounded.
Message edited by author 2010-12-21 18:27:00. |
|
|
|
12/21/2010 06:48:49 PM · #893 |
| So it's ok for Christians to adopt/redefine pagan traditions but is it fine for others to adopt/redefine Christian traditions or religious ones in general? |
|
|
|
12/21/2010 07:22:51 PM · #894 |
Originally posted by yanko:
So it's ok for Christians to adopt/redefine pagan traditions but is it fine for others to adopt/redefine Christian traditions or religious ones in general? |
Like Kwanzaa?
I'm not sure what you mean by "is it fine"? In my opinion? In the eyes of the faith? In some large, general sense?
My off the cuff answer is, yes, it's annoying when Christmas is commandeered for other purposes. After all, it's the second holiest holiday in the Christian faith. But does that mean that somehow people aren't allowed to do that? Of course not. They can do what they want.
Matthew's question was more asking from within the Christian moral system. Wouldn't it be wrong to bring a pagan symbol into your house? The answer, perhaps surprisingly to Matthew, is no, not if it doesn't bother you or those around you. The early Christians had a directly analagous issue when they would show up for dinner at a friend's house and the main course had been bought from a temple where the meat was presented to an idol. What should they do? Would eating the meat make them complicit in the idol worship? Paul says let your conscience be your guide but make sure not to offend others and cause them to stumble because of your action. Pretty reasonable stuff, no?
Message edited by author 2010-12-21 19:59:35. |
|
|
|
12/21/2010 09:28:14 PM · #895 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... it's annoying when Christmas is commandeered for other purposes. After all, it's the second holiest holiday in the Christian faith. |
Quick question Doc...why do is Christmas celebrated on December 25th...surely that cannot be the day of his birth?
Ray |
|
|
|
12/21/2010 10:37:37 PM · #896 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... it's annoying when Christmas is commandeered for other purposes. After all, it's the second holiest holiday in the Christian faith. |
Quick question Doc...why do is Christmas celebrated on December 25th...surely that cannot be the day of his birth?
Ray |
Ya, I don't know if that's what they actually thought or they did it purposely to counteract a popular pagan festival (the solstace).
A reference book I have (The Story of Christianity) simply says this, "The earliest feast day in connection with the birth of Jesus was January 6, Epiphany, the day of his manifestation. This was originally the celebration of the birth itself. Later, particularly in some areas of the Latin West, December 25 began to take its place. This latter date was actually a pagan festival which, after the time of Constantine, was preempted by the celebration of Christmas.
Interestingly, in my great-grandmother's journal, when she came from Russia to Canada she was perplexed and annoyed that the locals did not celebrate Epiphany, and, in fact, it seems she used the old Gregorian calendar as well. |
|
|
|
12/21/2010 10:53:43 PM · #897 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... it's annoying when Christmas is commandeered for other purposes. After all, it's the second holiest holiday in the Christian faith. |
Quick question Doc...why do is Christmas celebrated on December 25th...surely that cannot be the day of his birth?
Ray |
Ya, I don't know if that's what they actually thought or they did it purposely to counteract a popular pagan festival (the solstace).
A reference book I have (The Story of Christianity) simply says this, "The earliest feast day in connection with the birth of Jesus was January 6, Epiphany, the day of his manifestation. This was originally the celebration of the birth itself. Later, particularly in some areas of the Latin West, December 25 began to take its place. This latter date was actually a pagan festival which, after the time of Constantine, was preempted by the celebration of Christmas.
Interestingly, in my great-grandmother's journal, when she came from Russia to Canada she was perplexed and annoyed that the locals did not celebrate Epiphany, and, in fact, it seems she used the old Gregorian calendar as well. |
Trying to remember way back to the days I attended a Jesuit seminary in northern Ontario, but I seem to recall that the common concensus was that Jesus was probably born in late summer or early fall, and most certainly not in the latter part of December.
I have no idea where you great-grandmother lived in Canada, but I can assure you that the Epiphany was definitely celebrated by the French Canadian, as well as the Ukranians and I believe people of German extraction.
Christmas in my family was a religious celebration which included both the low and high masses, following which there was a feast that lasted into the wee hours of the morning (like noon). Any exchanges of gifts (assuming there were gifts to be doled out) would be done on New Year`s Day, after the head of the household had blessed the family.
Ray
Message edited by author 2010-12-21 22:54:27. |
|
|
|
12/21/2010 11:20:32 PM · #898 |
| She lived on the prairies of Manitoba and Saskatchewan. |
|
|
|
12/23/2010 08:34:49 AM · #899 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... it's annoying when Christmas is commandeered for other purposes. After all, it's the second holiest holiday in the Christian faith. |
Quick question Doc...why do is Christmas celebrated on December 25th...surely that cannot be the day of his birth?
Ray |
Christmas wasn't a big celebration until the last 100 years. Christmas is 9 months after a more important holiday that was celebrated by the early church and now more formal churches. The Feast of the Annunciation is on March 25.
|
|
|
|
12/24/2010 08:02:00 PM · #900 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... it's annoying when Christmas is commandeered for other purposes. After all, it's the second holiest holiday in the Christian faith. |
Quick question Doc...why do is Christmas celebrated on December 25th...surely that cannot be the day of his birth?
Ray |
Christmas wasn't a big celebration until the last 100 years. Christmas is 9 months after a more important holiday that was celebrated by the early church and now more formal churches. The Feast of the Annunciation is on March 25. |
Thank you for the input  Nullixbut I am quite familiar with most religious holidays celebrated by the Catholic church...and the answer you provided does not address the question I asked the Doc.
Have a Merry Christmas,
Ray |
|
