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11/03/2010 07:43:55 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Both of these make real differences by reducing our nations dependence on hostile nations, perhaps you can stop buying products that are made outside of the USA (admittedly VERY hard to do now..), along with a thousand other great things that a person can do, not one of which IMO is voting... |
I had a choice for a vote for senator the other day.
One was a person who had become president of a company and chosen to change the slow and steady dynamic of a great local company that hired form within. She moved all their manufacturing to China and India. She cut 30,000 local jobs and increased the company profit and made a tidy bonus for herself. She was proud of what she had done and was a proponent of keeping the current tax laws in place that encourage such off shoring of jobs.
Her opponent is deeply flawed as a senator, but opposes such off-shoring, and sees no reason tax dollars should be spent to encourage it. So I voted for her.
And ya, Im ranting, so ill quit. |
I see this as serving to reinforce my position. And, I can't imagine such a choice actually felt good, I mean, who picks these people? |
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11/03/2010 07:44:22 PM · #152 |
| Obama supposed to stop spending and get us into right track... 2 years, spending went out of control, worse than Bush years together. Now, We the People sent message for the last time... A historical event, Obama regime has ended finally. If Republicans screw this one up once again, get ready for a very strong third party. |
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11/03/2010 07:47:00 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
Obama supposed to stop spending and get us into right track... 2 years, spending went out of control, worse than Bush years together. Now, We the People sent message for the last time... A historical event, Obama regime has ended finally. If Republicans screw this one up once again, get ready for a very strong third party. |
I'm not sure America's memory is quite that good... |
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11/03/2010 09:31:39 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
However, no matter how strong my determination and force of will is, it does not change the fact that my vote should not be cast, as I do not approve of ANY of the candidates.
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Out of curiosity, do you vote on ballot measures and all that jazz?
Message edited by author 2010-11-03 21:32:02. |
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11/03/2010 09:44:58 PM · #155 |
Ah, I do have to thank you, Cory. You just may have convinced me to vote in the future! :-)
(And I'll probably start with Free Study. May even do the middle of the night one, too.)
Message edited by author 2010-11-03 22:22:07. |
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11/03/2010 10:31:40 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by violici:
I think the more you know about politics, government, etc, the more bitter you become.
I personally like to stay away from all the lies and false promises because it doesn't affect me in a major way. I've lived in america for 14 years and whether it was Clinton, Bush or obama as president, my life, personally has not been affected in any major way. I think if we focus on ourselves and our lives more then "believing and hoping for a better future" we'd see that we, as people can make our lives as decent as we can instead of just hoping for something more. Especially from the government.
I say, live for today, you never know what tomorrow brings, if you want to vote, vote, if you don't, then don't. But focusing too much attention on it just distracts from the beautiful things in life. :) |
Our lives have been affected. The school system is getting gutted, the "no child left behind" is doing some nasty things to the education system -- the schools spend 1/4 of the year teaching to the test that they have to pass, spending for the sciences has been gutted at different times in the past.
There is no way that I can say that life hasn't been affected by some of the stupidity in politics. |
yes, but i dont think it's been affected because we voted for the wrong guy, i think that's just the way it is cuz the ones in charge will do whatever is in their best interest no matter what they promise us so whether we vote or not...i dont think anything will change. |
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11/03/2010 10:37:22 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by violici:
I think the more you know about politics, government, etc, the more bitter you become. |
In my experience it is not quite that.
People who are engaged in the process are hopeful, they understand the process is far from perfect, but that their efforts really matter and make a difference.
People who are completely out of touch with the process, and don't know anyone who is inside the system, see it as a monolith of greed and corruption. They are very bitter.
I spent some time on Capitol Hill, and there I met some of the brightest most selfless people I have ever met. People who despite their various political viewpoints were trying to make the world a better place, and usually passing up a chance to make much better money in the private sector to do so.
If all you do is watch the news from time to time, and see the scandal of the day, then you will get bitter. If you get involved and try to make a difference then you can see that those around you are not monsters, but people trying to make things better, even if they don't all agree on what "better" is.
âA little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.â
Pope |
I do believe that there are selfless people out there, and that they have hope, and keep trying to change the world, and keep trying and trying and trying...etc...and we got to what result? we are complaining about..economy, healthcare, education...and so on. in my 14 years of being in this country i don't remember people NOT complaining about these things, which means they've been a problem for a long time. were they ever NOT a problem? were there ever people NOT complaining or NOT thinking they can make the world a better place? If those selfless and maybe influential people that try..and hope..and put all their effort into it, weren't able to do much yet then what makes us think that eventually someone will? or that we will change something...by voting? |
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11/03/2010 10:40:50 PM · #158 |
Looks like the Government is very serious about spending.
//news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101103/ap_on_re_as/as_afghan_us_embassy
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
Obama supposed to stop spending and get us into right track... 2 years, spending went out of control, worse than Bush years together. Now, We the People sent message for the last time... A historical event, Obama regime has ended finally. If Republicans screw this one up once again, get ready for a very strong third party. |
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11/03/2010 10:44:51 PM · #159 |
So... you guys that are saying that since I have the right to vote, I should? Even though I don't really like any of the candidates, I should vote because it has been made a right to me.
Ok, so if we had the right to be naked in public we should all do it, because someone has fought for us to have that right. ? I am not going to do something just because i have the "right" to do it. that's insane!!! |
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11/03/2010 10:56:21 PM · #160 |
yes, You must choose out of two bad choices.
that way, statistically , you will become a supporter of one bad choice, and therefore support something you did not like to start with.
Originally posted by violici:
So... you guys that are saying that since I have the right to vote, I should? Even though I don't really like any of the candidates, I should vote because it has been made a right to me.
Ok, so if we had the right to be naked in public we should all do it, because someone has fought for us to have that right. ? I am not going to do something just because i have the "right" to do it. that's insane!!! |
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11/04/2010 12:00:30 AM · #161 |
I have the right to drive, does that mean I'm somehow shirking my duty as a citizen if I walk?
I have the right to worship as I choose, does that mean I MUST worship some god?
I have the right to bear arms, does that mean I MUST carry a gun?
I have the right to pursue happiness, does that mean I can't wallow in my misery if I so choose?
Part of having the right to do a thing is having the right NOT to do that thing as well.
The political system, and the power of elected office, doesn't belong to the people who vote, or those who don't vote. It belongs to those who have the deepest pockets. In the US, that means corporations. Corporations, not the people, hold the true reins of power in this country. You and I are insignificant unless we have millions of dollars to "donate" to the campaign funds of those "serving" the people.
Message edited by author 2010-11-04 00:16:50. |
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11/04/2010 12:01:49 AM · #162 |
Originally posted by violici:
So... you guys that are saying that since I have the right to vote, I should? Even though I don't really like any of the candidates, I should vote because it has been made a right to me.
Ok, so if we had the right to be naked in public we should all do it, because someone has fought for us to have that right. ? I am not going to do something just because i have the "right" to do it. that's insane!!! |
Turns out you have a right to smoke and drink, guess we all better go pick up a pack of smokes and a six pack.. |
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11/04/2010 02:26:31 AM · #163 |
| Nicely put coryboehne and spork99. I couldn't have said it any better myself. |
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11/04/2010 10:32:07 AM · #164 |
You are right, you should not be voting.
If you can't see the difference between being forced to smoke cigarettes and voting, the difference between one political party and another, you may lack the ability to discriminate. Let those of us who can, pick your government for you. |
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11/04/2010 10:32:28 AM · #165 |
| I hope you tell all the misguided individual donors to all these campaigns that all their money is wasted, it means nothing, that the corporations are making it all moot and they're better off spending it on themselves. They'll be pissed. |
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11/04/2010 11:11:58 AM · #166 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
I hope you tell all the misguided individual donors to all these campaigns that all their money is wasted, it means nothing, that the corporations are making it all moot and they're better off spending it on themselves. They'll be pissed. |
They should be, but at themselves, because that's exactly what they're doing.
Message edited by author 2010-11-04 11:12:16.
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11/04/2010 11:15:41 AM · #167 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
You are right, you should not be voting.
If you can't see the difference between being forced to smoke cigarettes and voting, the difference between one political party and another, you may lack the ability to discriminate. Let those of us who can, pick your government for you. |
*sigh*... You really aren't very good at this..
I never said a single thing about being forced, instead, you imply since we have a right, that we had better use it or lose it..
Therefore, my conclusion is, if that were true, we should all strap a .45 pistol to our side, grab a cigarette and go for a walk... Since, as you say, it's our right.
And, haven't I stated several times that I see very little difference between dems and repubs? You are arguing here that there are clear cut differences, I disagree, while the rhetoric might be different, the actions are nearly indistinguishable..
In short, I think your arguments lack any sign of real thought, and you, like many Americans, are operating off emotion rather than logic. |
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11/04/2010 11:15:50 AM · #168 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
You are right, you should not be voting.
If you can't see the difference between being forced to smoke cigarettes and voting, the difference between one political party and another, you may lack the ability to discriminate. Let those of us who can, pick your government for you. |
That's pretty ignorant Brennan. Can you tell me that your system works? If you think it does then why are we so up in arms about our current political system? Your way DOES NOT WORK dude, wake up. It has never worked, ever, ever, ever and will not in the future. Only the rich get elected nowadays, is this what you wanted by voting? Wake up. |
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11/04/2010 11:58:15 AM · #169 |
I do not believe that not voting is a statement that is recorded. The difference between not voting out of protest, and not voting out of apathy is apparent only to the person who does not vote. I just don't understand how you could put so much thought into the political process and then decide not to do what little you can to effect the process. Yes one vote is not much, (sort of like paddling on an aircraft carrier) but not voting is nothing. If you are comfortable with the direction we are drifting, fine, otherwise I don't understand why you are unwilling to put your paddle in.
I am familiar with the boycott protest. I do not shop at Walmart. I do shop at Costco. Both are category killer big box stores that do all sorts of bad things to local retailers, but at least Costco pays their employees a living wage, and isn't an active lobbyist to degrade minimal workplace benefits and standards. I respect people who wont shop at any big box store, giving all their money to local stores to foster local businesses. Where you shop is a political act, and you have many many choices. Sadly the ballot box is much more limited.
To me life is a series of less than ideal choices, which freeway to choose to get to a given destination, which head of lettuce to buy, what camera lens to use, they all have their drawbacks and their advantages. How you can look at a choice (between Meg Whitman and Jerry Brown for Governor of California for instance) and see no difference between the two is hard for me to understand. Similar? Yes I guess so, in some ways. The same? No not really, quite different to my eyes.
The system we have is the system we have, and the only way that we as the governed have to alter that system is through the ballot box. Silence equals assent to those in power.
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11/04/2010 12:02:37 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Silence equals assent to those in power. |
I think Qui Tacit Consentis is how the phrase goes in Latin -- it used to be printed on voter-registration posters.
Get ready ...
Message edited by author 2010-11-04 12:10:32. |
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11/04/2010 12:17:35 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
..How you can look at a choice (between Meg Whitman and Jerry Brown for Governor of California for instance) and see no difference between the two is hard for me to understand. Similar? Yes I guess so, in some ways. The same? No not really, quite different to my eyes.
...Silence equals assent to those in power. |
Better response, thank you.
As to question 1, I see that they are different yes, but not acceptable, and (in answer to #2) I feel strongly that by voting for one or the other you have now put your personal seal of approval upon that candidate, and therefore you share responsibility for what they will do.
Imagine, you are in 1930's Germany, and you vote for the guy with big promises, sure I mean, he's done a few bad things, but he's clearly going to work for change.. Now, fast forward 10 years, how would you feel about having helped to put Hitler into power? I'd hope you would feel that shame that is due.
Clearly that's an extreme among extremes, but the result is the same, you now bear responsibility for any actions of those you voted for. That's a responsibility I do not wish to bear, as it's too much like signing a violent drug addict out of treatment and taking responsibility for their actions, you just know it's going to go badly. |
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11/04/2010 12:57:24 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Imagine, you are in 1930's Germany, and you vote for the guy with big promises, sure I mean, he's done a few bad things, but he's clearly going to work for change.. Now, fast forward 10 years, how would you feel about having helped to put Hitler into power? I'd hope you would feel that shame that is due. |
I assuming I was with the 27% of the population that voted for him, yes I would have felt shame. My vote probably would have gone to Ernst Thälmann, but voting for one of the various parties who opposed Hitler would have been far less shameful than not voting at all.
Bad actions have consequences, but inaction does too.
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11/04/2010 01:46:02 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Imagine, you are in 1930's Germany, and you vote for the guy with big promises, sure I mean, he's done a few bad things, but he's clearly going to work for change.. Now, fast forward 10 years, how would you feel about having helped to put Hitler into power? I'd hope you would feel that shame that is due. |
I assuming I was with the 27% of the population that voted for him, yes I would have felt shame. My vote probably would have gone to Ernst Thälmann, but voting for one of the various parties who opposed Hitler would have been far less shameful than not voting at all.
Bad actions have consequences, but inaction does too. |
What consequence is there for not voting? I'm curious... |
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11/04/2010 04:49:55 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by violici:
What consequence is there for not voting? I'm curious... |
Well not really aimed at folks who believe that not voting will somehow change the gestalt, more at people who didn't vote because Obama disappointed them Letter to a whiny young democrat pretty much hits it on the head. |
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11/04/2010 07:00:05 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by violici:
What consequence is there for not voting? I'm curious... |
Well not really aimed at folks who believe that not voting will somehow change the gestalt, more at people who didn't vote because Obama disappointed them Letter to a whiny young democrat pretty much hits it on the head. |
That letter could be used as a template after every election. The voter behavior is as predictable as the rising sun. Obama failed to quickly restore things back to where it was prior to Bush dropping a WMD on the economy and so the most angry among us turned on him and caught up in the wake, the moderates where you always find them.
The real failure here is not with the voter but with Obama. He simply isn't a salesman. He failed to sell his successes, which already dwarfs Bush's tenfold. Now his opponents are great salesman. They sold us a box of shit. We believed in the lies about death panels, phony birth certificates, etc and in the coming week's we'll be duped again into believing that earmark cuts can actually make a difference in reducing the deficit. The irony in all of this is we finally live in an era where we have access to the facts yet we are too lazy to even lift up a finger.
Message edited by author 2010-11-04 19:02:35.
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