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10/12/2010 08:45:19 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
...it becomes a more involved problem when you THINK you're protected by certain laws and find out that, nuh uh, maybe not. |
Somebody needs to take their blue pill and go back to believing you are protected. :P |
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10/12/2010 08:45:59 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I have a problem with using devices like that without a warrant, period, but it becomes a more involved problem when you THINK you're protected by certain laws and find out that, nuh uh, maybe not.
That's where the REAL problem happens. |
Well said, sir.
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10/12/2010 08:55:43 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
...it becomes a more involved problem when you THINK you're protected by certain laws and find out that, nuh uh, maybe not. |
Somebody needs to take their blue pill and go back to believing you are protected. :P |
I wish :/ |
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10/12/2010 11:53:24 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
e more of an issue with the tracker itself than the fact it was done in the dude's driveway. Just my hunch though.
Also, to at least make clear the details of the case in question. The car was parked next to the guy's trailer. My guess is it's a mobile home park or something where your "property" is probably very different than a single family home lot. I'm guessing people are cutting through each other's "yard" all the time... |
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never lived in a trailer park. |
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10/13/2010 12:54:29 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
e more of an issue with the tracker itself than the fact it was done in the dude's driveway. Just my hunch though.
Also, to at least make clear the details of the case in question. The car was parked next to the guy's trailer. My guess is it's a mobile home park or something where your "property" is probably very different than a single family home lot. I'm guessing people are cutting through each other's "yard" all the time... |
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never lived in a trailer park. |
Three weeks long enough? Wasn't my trailer though. ;) I slept in a tent instead.
Like I said, I think you guys just don't like the idea of the tracker rather than the actual doing it in the driveway.
But let me ask you this (or K10). Do you think a police officer needs a warrant to just follow someone suspicious? What's the diff?
Message edited by author 2010-10-13 00:57:08. |
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10/13/2010 01:12:49 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
e more of an issue with the tracker itself than the fact it was done in the dude's driveway. Just my hunch though.
Also, to at least make clear the details of the case in question. The car was parked next to the guy's trailer. My guess is it's a mobile home park or something where your "property" is probably very different than a single family home lot. I'm guessing people are cutting through each other's "yard" all the time... |
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never lived in a trailer park. |
Three weeks long enough? Wasn't my trailer though. ;) I slept in a tent instead.
Like I said, I think you guys just don't like the idea of the tracker rather than the actual doing it in the driveway.
But let me ask you this (or K10). Do you think a police officer needs a warrant to just follow someone suspicious? What's the diff? |
3 weeks? Not really, or you'd understand just how territorial some people who live in trailer parks can be.
I'm sort of OK with the tracking device, however, I think it's use should require a warrant as should entering someone's curtilage. How hard is it to get a warrant?
What's the difference between a wiretap and eavesdropping? |
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10/13/2010 05:13:22 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
[
What's the difference between a wiretap and eavesdropping? |
...I seem to recall that one needs a warrant for the first one.
Ray |
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10/13/2010 05:17:34 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think a police officer needs a warrant to just follow someone suspicious? What's the diff? |
I have a problem with this......what's the definition of suspicious? That's pretty open to interpretation. Last time I checked, a police officer is supposed to serve and protecyt, not decide someone's actting "suspicious".
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10/13/2010 05:26:29 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think a police officer needs a warrant to just follow someone suspicious? What's the diff? |
I have a problem with this......what's the definition of suspicious? That's pretty open to interpretation. Last time I checked, a police officer is supposed to serve and protecyt, not decide someone's actting "suspicious". |
Actually a police officer, or anyone else for that matter, can harbour all the suspicions they want about anyone else, however, the police officer is required by law to seek a warrant prior to undertaking activities such as wiretaps and the like.
Ray |
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10/13/2010 05:28:17 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think a police officer needs a warrant to just follow someone suspicious? What's the diff? |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I have a problem with this......what's the definition of suspicious? That's pretty open to interpretation. Last time I checked, a police officer is supposed to serve and protecyt, not decide someone's actting "suspicious". |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Actually a police officer, or anyone else for that matter, can harbour all the suspicions they want about anyone else, however, the police officer is required by law to seek a warrant prior to undertaking activities such as wiretaps and the like.
Ray |
Harboring suspicion is just fine.......but to act on it without reasonable proof of a law being broken is wrong.
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10/13/2010 07:10:02 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
well a warrant is a warrant. If the authorities have a legitimate reason to suspect illegal activity they get a warrant which allows them to invade privacy. You cant just invade someones privacy becuase you want to, a judge has to allow it. |
Had there been a warrant, this would not have made the news. I think you missed the point; that police no longer need warrants, hence the argument about the driveway being a public space. While such a thing would have required a warrant before 9-11, it no longer does. We have given up our assumptions that we can be secure in our property.
Originally posted by mike_311:
this ruling just states that a car in your open driveway is not considered in a private area, and i agree. |
So in these days of terrorist fears, is it any person's right to crawl around under another person's car and strap things to the bottom of other people's cars? Even if that car is obviously on private property, as long as it is not behind locked doors? On some drive ways that will get you shot and held for questioning. The notion that your car and your driveway aren't really private property seems like a reckless abrogation of the constitutional right to be secure in your property to me. But if you can assure me that it will make me safer, I guess I'll give up my and my children's right to be free from unreasonable searches, our right to be secure in my property, and our right to due process, as long as the terrorists don't win.
The FBI got caught doing the same thing ( warrantlessly strapping a gps on a persons car) and when the kid found it he posted up on the net to try to figure out what it was. The FBI did not admit that it was theirs, but they sent over six agents to make the student give it back.
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10/13/2010 08:23:40 AM · #62 |
I debated even posting in this thread because all of this just seems ridiculous to me. Did the police just randomly choose some guy and hope he was doing something illegal? No. Pretty sure they knew what he was up to.
Would you still be bitter if this was a suspected pedophile they tracked and the GPS helped the police rescue your son or daughter before they were raped, tortured and murdered? How about if your wife, husband, brother, sister, son, or daughter was a drug addict and this guy was supplying them in trade for sexual favors? Would you still be screaming about personal freedom or would you be screaming at the police for not doing their job? I think people get so caught up in their own fight for personal freedom that they forget the bigger picture. Step back from your fight against the man and put it in a personal perspective and then see if you still want to fight the "good" fight. They aren't tracking you and me, they are tracking those they suspect are doing illegal activities. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that.
As for those who want to make the jump from placing a GPS tracker on a car in a driveway to placing tracking chips in all newborn babies. Really? Is that the next step? That is at least three or four... million... steps away.
The world isn't the same as it used to be, but I don't specifically blame the terrorists. I blame the internet. It has opened the world for every kind of weirdo this world has to offer and allows them to do and say anything they want. You can do a quick google search to find out how to make a bomb that could kill hundreds, if not thousands, of people in the right setting and guess what? I hope they track every single person who does that type of search. I hope they track them, place a GPS on their car, track all their credit card purchases, track their banking accounts, and bug their phones. Hell, they can even bug their house... and I don't care if they have a warrant or not. If it makes this world safer for my children then go right ahead and do it.
Flame away...
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10/13/2010 08:30:23 AM · #63 |
| Haha. There should be an equivalent to Godwins law about pedophiles and wife/daughter rapists there really should. It was only a matter of time. |
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10/13/2010 08:39:55 AM · #64 |
.... If it makes this world safer for my children then go right ahead and do it.
thats the point, it does not make the world safer, everyone sights the children as the reason to erode our rights...
- which is making the world less safe for our children! |
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10/13/2010 08:41:07 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by mike_311:
well a warrant is a warrant. If the authorities have a legitimate reason to suspect illegal activity they get a warrant which allows them to invade privacy. You cant just invade someones privacy becuase you want to, a judge has to allow it. |
Had there been a warrant, this would not have made the news. I think you missed the point; that police no longer need warrants, hence the argument about the driveway being a public space. While such a thing would have required a warrant before 9-11, it no longer does. We have given up our assumptions that we can be secure in our property.
Originally posted by mike_311:
this ruling just states that a car in your open driveway is not considered in a private area, and i agree. |
So in these days of terrorist fears, is it any person's right to crawl around under another person's car and strap things to the bottom of other people's cars? Even if that car is obviously on private property, as long as it is not behind locked doors? On some drive ways that will get you shot and held for questioning. The notion that your car and your driveway aren't really private property seems like a reckless abrogation of the constitutional right to be secure in your property to me. But if you can assure me that it will make me safer, I guess I'll give up my and my children's right to be free from unreasonable searches, our right to be secure in my property, and our right to due process, as long as the terrorists don't win.
The FBI got caught doing the same thing ( warrantlessly strapping a gps on a persons car) and when the kid found it he posted up on the net to try to figure out what it was. The FBI did not admit that it was theirs, but they sent over six agents to make the student give it back. |
That's the actual story that started this thread but the link I posted was about another GPS situation. The kid was a born American and has tan skin. Enough for a GPS tag? It would seem so in today's FBI. |
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10/13/2010 09:05:20 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
So in these days of terrorist fears, is it any person's right to crawl around under another person's car and strap things to the bottom of other people's cars? |
One would hope the police employee would be in uniform. Someone strapping a device under my automobile would stand a fair chance of being shot dead.
That being said, wouldn't it be fun to actually spot the police installing the tracker? Then driving around for about 10 days. Trip to the Windy city. That cross country trip to the West, or East coast we'd always wanted to make. A quick jaunt to the Red Light district, pick up a sex worker, drive over to the police department to deliver the employee to the Chief. Or maybe throw some dirty underwear into a black plastic bag and drive over to the Masonic Lodge for a meeting with the brothers. The possibilities seem endless this morning. Maybe I wouldn't shoot the sap-sucker after all. :) |
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10/13/2010 09:10:48 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
That being said, wouldn't it be fun to actually spot the police installing the tracker? Then driving around for about 10 days. Trip to the Windy city. That cross country trip to the West, or East coast we'd always wanted to make. A quick jaunt to the Red Light district, pick up a sex worker, drive over to the police department to deliver the employee to the Chief. Or maybe throw some dirty underwear into a black plastic bag and drive over to the Masonic Lodge for a meeting with the brothers. The possibilities seem endless this morning. :) |
Drive it to D.C and abandon it in the parking lot of the Russian embassy......8~)
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10/13/2010 09:16:34 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
.... If it makes this world safer for my children then go right ahead and do it.
thats the point, it does not make the world safer, everyone sights the children as the reason to erode our rights...
- which is making the world less safe for our children! |
So, secretly putting a GPS tracker on a drug dealer's car which led the authorities to his "farm" isn't making the world safer for my children? What do you think he was going to do with all that weed? Make a gigantic joint and smoke it himself? Or was he going to sell it? I would bet you a dollar he was going to sell it. Now, what do you think he would do with all that money? Save it or make more drugs? I would again bet a dollar he makes more drugs and now maybe he realizes that weed isn't the way to go... too much work for a small profit. Maybe he decides to move on to meth because that is where the real money is. He knows that users get addicted to that stuff and they will do anything to get it. Now he is producing drugs that cause people to do incredibly irrational things when they are on and off the drugs and that puts everyone in danger. So please tell me again how getting him off the street doesn't make my world safer? |
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10/13/2010 09:24:06 AM · #69 |
| Lion's and tigers and bears. Oh my! |
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10/13/2010 09:47:21 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by toddhead:
What do you think he was going to do with all that weed? Make a gigantic joint and smoke it himself? |
Hmmmmmmmmm. |
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10/13/2010 09:59:55 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by toddhead:
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
.... If it makes this world safer for my children then go right ahead and do it.
thats the point, it does not make the world safer, everyone sights the children as the reason to erode our rights...
- which is making the world less safe for our children! |
So, secretly putting a GPS tracker on a drug dealer's car which led the authorities to his "farm" isn't making the world safer for my children? What do you think he was going to do with all that weed? Make a gigantic joint and smoke it himself? Or was he going to sell it? I would bet you a dollar he was going to sell it. Now, what do you think he would do with all that money? Save it or make more drugs? I would again bet a dollar he makes more drugs and now maybe he realizes that weed isn't the way to go... too much work for a small profit. Maybe he decides to move on to meth because that is where the real money is. He knows that users get addicted to that stuff and they will do anything to get it. Now he is producing drugs that cause people to do incredibly irrational things when they are on and off the drugs and that puts everyone in danger. So please tell me again how getting him off the street doesn't make my world safer? |
If you want to live in a police state fine. I'll just remember to build my fences high enough so you can't run away from your protectors when the day arrives where you realize that you're just a puppet living out other people's (your government) idea of freedom. If you need your government to protect you from drugs then you are the problem, in my view, not the drug dealer. Do drug dealers in your area point a gun at your head so you will buy their drugs?
The real problem will arise when your government gets all drugs off the streets. Then you'll see crime rates go up. Alcoholism will be on the rise, but hey, it's legal. Car deaths will rise, accidents, insurance rates etc. Will you want to eradicate alcohol too? Actually it won't even be a question put to you by your government, they'll do as they wish because you will have already given them the right to do it without asking. |
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10/13/2010 10:40:34 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Will you want to eradicate alcohol too? Actually it won't even be a question put to you by your government, they'll do as they wish because you will have already given them the right to do it without asking. |
We tried that already -- instead of legitimate breweries, wineries and distilleries (and the taxes they paid) you had illegal booze made in the equivalent of meth labs, and with the proprietors and distributors shooting each other (and many innocents) in turf wars, prisons filling up, people poisoned by bad "stuff," etc. -- sound familiar? Prohibition has failed to work for about five thousand years of recorded history, why do we think it will suddenly work now?
Message edited by author 2010-10-13 10:41:07. |
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10/13/2010 10:51:07 AM · #73 |
This thread reminds me of Lethal Weapon 2.
Without the South Africans obviously. |
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10/13/2010 10:53:33 AM · #74 |
| The Libertarians run amok on DPC... ;) |
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10/13/2010 11:08:41 AM · #75 |
| I'm not a Libertarian, but I am trying to figure where the government has a role in deciding how to exercise my "inalienable right" to "pursue happiness" when it comes to actions which affect only myself and my immediate family. |
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