| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/06/2010 10:30:53 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
FWIW, in my industry (and in some others I'm aware of) $500usd/day is a reasonable cost for a seminar; some are significantly more expensive. |
Absolutely - In the IT industry ﾃ｢つｬ400-600/day for a seminar is usual. Specialized training with smaller groups and the rates go up to ﾃ｢つｬ600-1000/day.
And I've been on both sides; trainer and trainee.
If someone was offering to teach me a skill in one day, where I have the advantage of asking questions and focusing on specific areas. I'd measure that against how many days it'd take me to teach myself, and how much value it's adding to my CV. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 10:41:33 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by JH:
I'll be performing some DIY Dentistry on myself later. I learned the techniques from blogs, wikipedia, and youtube.
- Roll of cotton wool
- A kitchen skewer
- A mirror
- Pliers
- One bottle of scotch
It should go well. Plus, I'll save myself a fortune in dentists fees. |
You forgot the string and doorknob ...  |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 10:46:00 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by JH:
I'll be performing some DIY Dentistry on myself later. I learned the techniques from blogs, wikipedia, and youtube.
- Roll of cotton wool
- A kitchen skewer
- A mirror
- Pliers
- One bottle of scotch
It should go well. Plus, I'll save myself a fortune in dentists fees. |
If you would learn this with 2 days workshop and paying a few grand to a very famous dentist... I would consider you the "learning god"
You're totally missing the point with this one. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 10:50:09 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
You can learn a ton in 5-35 seconds... sometimes enough to keep you pumping for years, if you get hit with a real pearl, that rings your bell. Sometimes a good teacher/photographer can hand you an epiphany in a moments time. Hard to place a price on that BUT I wouldn't easily or quickly cough up $$$ for it because the pearl may never come... also, there are lots and lots of free workshops (tutorials) out there...online...everywhere, with the same info. One thing nobody's mentioned is the social side of the experience. That's probably the best part, meeting people, beyond what you actually learn at the workshop and more of a reason to go if anything BUT again, at what cost? |
I think you're taking me out of contex. I feel I'd need a longer exposure to get something from it. But that's probably cause I'm very new to photography, and I'd need to cover a lot of basic groundwork before attempting anything.
JH, leave out the cotton wool, skewer, mirror and pliers.
|
|
|
|
08/06/2010 10:51:08 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
If you would learn this with 2 days workshop and paying a few grand to a very famous dentist... I would consider you the "learning god"
You're totally missing the point with this one. |
The value of practical hands-on learning, versus the teach-yourself approach?
And I bet you I *could* learn how to extract a tooth in two days (assuming I was in a dentists surgery being taught hands-on with a real dentist, and had some willing volunteers to try it out on)... ;-)
My point is, it's a hell of a lot easier and quicker to learn something complex when you're physically there with a pro, rather than trying to teach yourself. I spent 6 months trying to teach myself a golf swing from books. 3 days with a pro and it was fixed. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 10:56:36 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by JH:
And I bet you I *could* learn how to extract a tooth in two days (assuming I was in a dentists surgery being taught hands-on with a real dentist, and had some willing volunteers to try it out on)... ;-) |
No doubt. With two punches to the mouth too.
But the real art is in putting in fake ones!
|
|
|
|
08/06/2010 10:56:41 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by JH:
...The value of practical hands-on learning, versus the teach-yourself approach?... |
I wasn't talking about "surgery workshop" though.
There might be some "workshops" which I would call them "classes" at that point, might be investment what we do. Although, just paying tons for a "name" to see how they do things... I watch DVDs or read books instead, and yes in our case, "photography", after a few technique, it's a self "try-improve" IMHO. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 11:03:15 AM · #33 |
What you seem to be implying in all your comments on this thread and on the other thread is that I am stupid for spending my money on something that I want to do. As I stated in my other thread, I learn more from hands on, than I do from a book. If Ansel Adams had a workshop, I would pay to go to that too. (he would have to be alive mind).
Just to get your knickers in more a twist, I am actually paying 2 grand, I have invited a friend to come with me, because I know she has a desperate thirst to learn, she loves photography and this is a wonderful opportunity for the both of us to learn something new.
P.S Just got your PM asking me to buy any books and DVD's that might be at the workshop for you. Shall do. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 11:06:10 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
..P.S Just got your PM asking me to buy any books and DVD's that might be at the workshop for you. Shall do... |
Thanks :) |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 11:11:32 AM · #35 |
I considered paying $3000-$4000 for a David Muench workshop in the past. It was limited to 10 people or so, as I recall, and in a great location.
Muench is my landscape inspiration, a world-class photographer up at the level (or beyond) Ansel. There aren't many he participates in now it seems, but many are run by his son. Still, even at $4000 each, they are costly but reasonable in price...they're all inclusive at the site for 4-5 days, for example:
//www.muenchworkshops.com/Workshops/Sitka-AK/6125432_mVA2M
This would have been a pretty good one...and if you look at the agenda, it looks to be very focused on learning.
|
|
|
|
08/06/2010 11:19:00 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
... I considered paying $3000-$4000 for a David Muench workshop in the past... |
I am keep thinking what would I do with that amount instead... Assuming I had a good camera, even what I have now... and that 4 grand is disposable for me... I'd rather go places and shoot photos with other DPC friends... or other photographer friends. I'd end-up much more photos, and I'd learn more, I'd see more too.
Photography is an art, and art comes "within" the most. More you practice, sharper you'd be (IMO). In art, you need inspiration, and I think whatever inspires you is fine. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 11:33:19 AM · #37 |
But surely this is just horses for courses. Leo, you wouldn't spend your money on a workshop - fine, but not a reason for others to have the same view. People at work think I am completely insane trying to save ﾃつ｣1,600+ for a camera body. I in turn will never understand why anyone would want to spend more than ﾃつ｣5k max for a car. My partner would never pay more than ﾃつ｣700 all in for an annual holiday. We all have different priorities in life, want different things out of it, and at the end of the day, get enjoyment from different things. What a dull, dull place the world would be if we all wanted exactly the same.
Juliet, have a fabulous time, and make sure you bring back a full report - and plenty of photos to share with those of us who are interested. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 11:38:34 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
We all have different priorities in life, want different things out of it, and at the end of the day, get enjoyment from different things. What a dull, dull place the world would be if we all wanted exactly the same. |
Well said SaraR - For example, if I was heading to Vegas for the weekend with $2k in my pocket, I doubt I'd be spending it on Manny... ;-) |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 11:44:26 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
... not a reason for others to have the same view... |
Absolutely. All that is my own humble opinion :) I never force anyone or told anyone NOT to go and spend whatever they want. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 11:46:30 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
I considered paying $3000-$4000 for a David Muench workshop in the past. It was limited to 10 people or so, as I recall, and in a great location. |
Wow, wow, wow.
For that price tag, what new are you going to learn from the dude, that I know, you already know? I agree if it's all inclusive, boat, plane, hotel etc. that might factor in nicely but holy moley! Meeting the guy might be a nice thing and also a big reason people do these things... but that's still a ton of money to pay for a handshake when/if you can figure out his magic truthfully, anywhere. I'd bet you could spend the cash more productively.
Originally posted by SaraR:
Leo, you wouldn't spend your money on a workshop - fine, but not a reason for others to have the same view... |
Some people probably won't learn a lot at most workshops but that depends on the person and even the few bits they do get or take away it might not be worth the price tag to them but everybody learns differently, a really huge factor, here and of course Workshops are a lot of fun. So, why not?
I've gone to a few...paid...free and I always get a little something. There's plenty to learn but where the info is varies and if you don't have access, you have to do what you have to do. I find I learn plenty for free, at the Photo Conventions...easily enough to chew on for a long time. In find the free workshps (at Adorama, B&H etc.) to be as informative as the paid ones...sometimes more so but not everyone lives a few feet away from places that hold workshops. Right?
Message edited by author 2010-08-06 11:58:47. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 11:48:20 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
Originally posted by SaraR:
... not a reason for others to have the same view... |
Absolutely. All that is my own humble opinion :) I never force anyone or told anyone NOT to go and spend whatever they want. |
So why not just let them enjoy themselves doing what they want to do and spending their money how they want to spend it, instead of bringing it into question? - I'm sure you have things that you spend money on where I'd think you were nuts.
I've spent a few days looking at buying a luxury watch. And I'm sure you'd think *I* was nuts if I told you how much I was about to spend.
I generally stay quiet. Especially if my wife comes in with a new hair style. That's one time you *never* ask how much it cost.... ;) |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 12:09:04 PM · #42 |
Workshops are just like any other service or product being offered out there - some are fantastic and worth every penny, some are just shams from people looking to cash in on a popular idea. If you know what you want to learn and spend your time researching the quality of the workshop, then hopefully, you'll be happy with the money you've spent.
In January of 08, I went to a weekend workshop for children's photography. I'd been starting to think about doing some professional photography but wasn't sure what the next step was. I spent a lot of time researching workshops, reading reviews, talking to people and making sure this was something I wanted to spend a good chunk of change on. The workshop was a great combination of shooting, editing and business info. I came home feeling excited and prepared. By November, I'd quit my day job and since then, I've been doing photography full time. I know for certain that I wouldn't be where I am now without the benefit of that workshop. Best money I've spent.
|
|
|
|
08/06/2010 12:13:41 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
I considered paying $3000-$4000 for a David Muench workshop in the past. It was limited to 10 people or so, as I recall, and in a great location. |
Wow, wow, wow.
For that price tag, what new are you going to learn from the dude, that I know, you already know? I agree if it's all inclusive, boat, plane, hotel etc. that might factor in nicely but holy moley! Meeting the guy might be a nice thing and also a big reason people do these things... but that's still a ton of money to pay for a handshake when/if you can figure out his magic truthfully, anywhere. I'd bet you could spend the cash more productively.
Originally posted by SaraR:
Leo, you wouldn't spend your money on a workshop - fine, but not a reason for others to have the same view... |
Some people probably won't learn a lot at most workshops but that depends on the person and even the few bits they do get or take away it might not be worth the price tag to them but everybody learns differently, a really huge factor, here and of course Workshops are a lot of fun. So, why not?
I've gone to a few...paid...free and I always get a little something. There's plenty to learn but where the info is varies and if you don't have access, you have to do what you have to do. I find I learn plenty for free, at the Photo Conventions...easily enough to chew on for a long time. In find the free workshps (at Adorama, B&H etc.) to be as informative as the paid ones...sometimes more so but not everyone lives a few feet away from places that hold workshops. Right? |
It doesn't include airfare, but it did include meals and hotel. Would you not pay that to go shoot with Ansel Adams, and have him personally critique your work? And take you to the best places to shoot in an area where he's an expert?
It's a lot of money to spend, and so I didn't do it, but in retrospect, I sort of wish I had! Heck, just going on a 5 day bike tour with some of these tour companies costs almost as much, and Lance Armstrong doesn't ride with you and give you feedback.
|
|
|
|
08/06/2010 12:35:17 PM · #44 |
I'd have to say that what I'd be most likely to be interested in would be to spend a weekend with some of the folks here, shooting and editing. I'd be willing to offer up the expenses to go somewhere that whichever mentor I picked would deem most suitable for me to shadow him/her to allow me to basically walk in their shoes for that time.
The experience would be more valuable than a canned workshop simply because I would be selecting someone that I already had some feel for their work, and that they had something special that I'd like to incorporate into my repertoire.
Oddly, Joey and Manny aren't ones I'd choose, but  heida,  Gringo,  grigrigirl, and AlexSaberi certainly are....
|
|
|
|
08/06/2010 12:48:57 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Would you not pay that to go shoot with Ansel Adams, and have him personally critique your work? And take you to the best places to shoot in an area where he's an expert? |
I wouldn't spend a penny on it, to be honest. I wouldn't pay to have HCB (or anybody else) take me out shooting either... I'm don't think I'd be interested in any of them critiques my work BUT I would love, love, love to meet them and look at my work, share thoughts...wouldn't pay a dime though. They would be cool to talk with but on an intimate level, NOT as a student, who they'll forget 5 minutes after I walk out the door. I would like to watch them shoot. That would be very cool ... that's about all but again, wouldn't pay to see it.
For $350, I'd like to see Joe McNally do some, light set-ups, even reasonably simple ones because the equipment he uses, doesn't grow on trees but cost beyond that...I'd suck it up and watch a video. lololol
Just me... but people can groove however they wish, as far as I'm concerned.
I'd love to hang with Julia and I'm 100% certain I'll shoot Richmond Park with AlexSaberi some early AM morning, in the near future but honestly I'd far prefer to figure out what they do on my own as, that's what I enjoy. And frankly...I'd probably learn more simply by talking to them over a beer than at any workshop.
Hanging out with e301, a number of different times in London and New York, I probably discovered/learned more by chatting, walking just around, probably enough for a lifetime... drinking beer and I'd bet (for the record) between both of us...walking the streets, we probably took less than ten frames combined, if that. The technicals you can get anywhere...any time but understanding your subject or what it is your trying to do, comes from different places entirely. Just for me, that's important.
Message edited by author 2010-08-06 13:12:11. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 01:14:40 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
For that price tag, what new are you going to learn from the dude, that I know, you already know? |
Back in the primitive days of Photoshop 2.0 we has to scan pictures to digitize them, and my boss at the offset printing shop paid for me to go to some classes on scanning and Photoshop (actually, the scanner used a PS precursor program -- very powerful but a pain to use!).
I was already pretty familiar with prepping photos for printing from my graphics darkroom experience making halftones, so I really only picked up a couple of tidbits and tricks which were new -- but those were important in not screwing up a $6000 printing job. The ultimate "value" of any piece of information may not be known until far into the future.
If you learn best in a hands-on tutorial situation, then a workshop may be worth thousands, if you learn best by reading and experimentation it isn't, and if you don't have the money or have other priorities it's definitely not worth it. As SaraR said, there's no one right answer. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 01:24:12 PM · #47 |
My biggest worry about paying a lot for a workshop/seminar is similar to what I've found in group skiing lessons in the past. There's always someone who demands all the attention, and prevents the instructor from equally (roughly) dividing their time. Perhaps it's not as likely in a photo seminar, given you don't have someone falling all over the place, but I suspect it could still happen.
I have been tempted, based on this, to try some of the online seminars, for feedback. There are some peoplefrom Outdoor Photographer magazine that offer online seminar/classes at Betterphoto that "tempt" me. But somehow, those "do" seem overly expensive to me and I've never done it.
|
|
|
|
08/06/2010 01:29:42 PM · #48 |
| I would pay to hang out with a Photoshop Wizard. Not someone who batch processes for commercial work, but someone who can inspire me to take post-processing in new artistic directions, a Wizard who can take Photoshop to its limits. I want to know more about how Photoshop works, not just the specific steps to follow to get a specific look. I'm comfortable learning from a book, & I have several of those. So if anyone cares to recommend an interesting Photoshop book, I'd be interested. I learned a lot from the side challenges here, they've stretched my comfort zone, so I'm always checking out the side challenges. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 06:45:10 PM · #49 |
By the way, I want to apologize to JulietNN, which I consider a good friend. She is one of the DPC members I have privilege of visiting. This post was NOT intend to consider her stupid to pay any amount to go wherever, but only express my feelings about "workshops" which I think most designed to make money using "names" more than teaching purposes.
Just wanted to clear that out. |
|
|
|
08/06/2010 07:04:47 PM · #50 |
FWIW, I would love to just hang and watch someone like Manny or Joey etc do their thang. I get a buzz of off watching other people do what they are absolutely incredible at, without any distractions. I find I learn a lot more from watching others get into their groove, get going and the resulting shots than trying to copy them.
And yes it would be fun to go do a casual shoot afterward with a bigshot photog, but not one where I feel I'd have to equal their work to earn their respect. And no apart from expected expenses to get to where bigshot photog is, no, I would not pay because I would simply be an observer while they were at work, not in there trying to get the shot too. A casual shoot afterwards with them would be gravy. |
|
