How stupid are religious leaders?

04/21/2010 07:02:51 PM · #51

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I don't understand Jeb. Do you have a problem with the concept of a "servant leader"?

Not as long as it can be a woman or a man.

04/21/2010 07:07:24 PM · #52

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I don't understand Jeb. Do you have a problem with the concept of a "servant leader"?

Not as long as it can be a woman or a man.

Well, as long as you saw my comment to the same effect, then we don't have that much to disagree on despite your quick use of "absurd" and other fun action words.

My main point is that a marriage with two heads is likely to have trouble. Ultimately, a successful model is to have a CEO. The model is most successful if the CEO has the interests of the marriage at forefront and not self interest. It's hard to even imagine these words are shocking or absurd.

scalvert

04/21/2010 07:09:52 PM · #53

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My main point is that a marriage with two heads is likely to have trouble. Ultimately, a successful model is to have a CEO.

Try explaining to the sole "employee" that she is to have no say in any decision making, nor is she even allowed to question the CEO, and see which model is more likely to have trouble! Wear a helmet.

04/21/2010 07:11:25 PM · #54

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
My main point is that a marriage with two heads is likely to have trouble. Ultimately, a successful model is to have a CEO.

Try explaining to the sole "employee" that she is to have no say in any decision making, nor is she even allowed to question the CEO, and see which model is more likely to have trouble! Wear a helmet.

You quite nicely put lots of words in my mouth I have no intention of saying.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Message edited by author 2010-04-21 19:12:28.

04/21/2010 07:13:46 PM · #55

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My main point is that a marriage with two heads is likely to have trouble. Ultimately, a successful model is to have a CEO. The model is most successful if the CEO has the interests of the marriage at forefront and not self interest. It's hard to even imagine these words are shocking or absurd.

It is incomprehensible to me that a seemingly intelligent fellow such as yourself would believe that.

I'm thinking your relationship with your wife isn't on an equal footing, and that seems sad to me.

I guess that's one of the main reasons why after thirty-two years, my wife and I still genuinely like each other, and are best friends. We do everything as equals.

Personally, I can't imagine why she'd be willing to lower herself to be my equal, but that's another discussion for another day.

scalvert

04/21/2010 07:14:50 PM · #56

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
My main point is that a marriage with two heads is likely to have trouble. Ultimately, a successful model is to have a CEO.

Try explaining to the sole "employee" that she is to have no say in any decision making, nor is she even allowed to question the CEO, and see which model is more likely to have trouble! Wear a helmet.

You quite nicely put lots of words in my mouth I have no intention of saying.

Those ARE the biblical rules you're defending. I wouldn't want to say them either if I had any intention of staying married.

04/21/2010 07:20:13 PM · #57

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Do you ever think for yourself? Do you ever listen to your heart? Do you ever have any thoughts that don't become colored by these 2000 year old writings that make it really hard to exist amongst others in real life? Writings which we keep showing you create problems when you try and apply them today.

If your wife agrees to stand down on any decisions that you decide to make, and that works for the two of you, great, but I want a woman who will speak her heart and mind. I want to know who the woman is that I choose to spend my life with, and if she "submits", I'll never know how she really feels, what her hopes and dreams are, what she wants. Can't you see that?

04/21/2010 07:25:07 PM · #58

Hey Jeb. Wake up before I start cursing. Do you think for a moment that I've made it through sixteen years of marriage (I'm not as close to the grave as you) without listening to my wife? Do you think if I am truly loving her with everything that 1 Cor. 13 describes that I won't take her thoughts, needs, desires, and cousel into consideration? That I won't put them above my own?

It's easy to knock down a straw man.

Peace out.

04/21/2010 07:29:14 PM · #59

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Do you think for a moment that I've made it through sixteen years of marriage (I'm not as close to the grave as you) without listening to my wife? Do you think if I am truly loving her with everything that 1 Cor. 13 describes that I won't take her thoughts, needs, desires, and cousel into consideration? That I won't put them above my own?

Not if her understanding is that when it comes down to a draw that she must submit.

I'm sorry, but that isn't a real relationship.

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/21/2010 07:34:24 PM · #60

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think for a moment that I've made it through sixteen years of marriage (I'm not as close to the grave as you) without listening to my wife? Do you think if I am truly loving her with everything that 1 Cor. 13 describes that I won't take her thoughts, needs, desires, and cousel into consideration? That I won't put them above my own?

Not if her understanding is that when it comes down to a draw that she must submit.

I'm sorry, but that isn't a real relationship.

DrAchoo. Please let me know how you do it. I'm a little afraid of tonight when I have to remind my wife of her servitude and make her submit to me.

04/21/2010 07:36:06 PM · #61

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Not if her understanding is that when it comes down to a draw that she must submit.

How does it work in your relationship if there is truly a draw? Do you pick a number out of a hat? Do you alternate who's turn it is to make the difficult decision? And the answer isn't "we talk it out until we come to a consensus", because that isn't really a draw. How often does this even really happen? Maybe I'm much closer to my wife than you are and our goals and dreams are in much closer accord?

Message edited by author 2010-04-21 19:36:30.

04/21/2010 07:37:52 PM · #62

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think for a moment that I've made it through sixteen years of marriage (I'm not as close to the grave as you) without listening to my wife? Do you think if I am truly loving her with everything that 1 Cor. 13 describes that I won't take her thoughts, needs, desires, and cousel into consideration? That I won't put them above my own?

Not if her understanding is that when it comes down to a draw that she must submit.

I'm sorry, but that isn't a real relationship.

DrAchoo. Please let me know how you do it. I'm a little afraid of tonight when I have to remind my wife of her servitude and make her submit to me.

hehe. They probably also think I only "do it" with the lights off and on top... ;)

zxaar

04/21/2010 07:40:49 PM · #63

Originally posted by Nullix:

ask for a coffee first if that goes well, you can ask her bigger tasks.

:-D :-D

04/21/2010 07:46:04 PM · #64

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Not if her understanding is that when it comes down to a draw that she must submit.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

And yet again, you don't answer the question, or address the issue.

You don't acknowledge that there's an inequity if one person has the ultimate responsibility for the decisions.

I can flat guarantee you don't have the kind of closeness Lisa and I have......it's impossible.

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

04/21/2010 07:54:31 PM · #65

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Not if her understanding is that when it comes down to a draw that she must submit.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
How does it work in your relationship if there is truly a draw? Do you pick a number out of a hat? Do you alternate who's turn it is to make the difficult decision? And the answer isn't "we talk it out until we come to a consensus", because that isn't really a draw. How often does this even really happen? Maybe I'm much closer to my wife than you are and our goals and dreams are in much closer accord?

And yet again, you don't answer the question, or address the issue.

You don't acknowledge that there's an inequity if one person has the ultimate responsibility for the decisions.

I can flat guarantee you don't have the kind of closeness Lisa and I have......it's impossible.

Hehe. Ya ya. Your marriage is something special and all that. Roger.

I guess we don't see "decision maker" as "inequality". It's a role. It's a job. It's like declaring that since the Wide Receiver scores touchdowns he is clearly superior to the Offensive Tackle. It doesn't compute with me.

So how do you decide those draws in your special marriage?

zxaar

04/21/2010 08:12:19 PM · #66

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Do you remember date and time when you first met your wife???

K3Master

Pentax K-3

04/21/2010 08:19:17 PM · #67

HAHAHAHAHA.

"My marriage is closer/better than your marriage."

I'm dying here!

04/21/2010 08:19:55 PM · #68

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Hehe. Ya ya. Your marriage is something special and all that. Roger.
If you make it for 32 years, then perhaps you'll understand long term relationships. You want to mock me? You, who can't acknowledge a fatal flaw in your own thinking? I'm not the one with the lopsided relationship. I understadn how that'd work for you, assuming of course that you did find that woman agreeable to the secondary role.
[quote=DrAchoo]I guess we don't see "decision maker" as "inequality". It's a role. It's a job.

And as long as one person has that job in a marriage, it will always be on unequal footing.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

It's like declaring that since the Wide Receiver scores touchdowns he is clearly superior to the Offensive Tackle. It doesn't compute with me.

WTF does this mean???? In the first place, I don't know jack about football, n or care, but yet again, you're comparing things that don't matter, or make sense, when referring to the most important commitment you can make in your life.....who you choose as your mate.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

So how do you decide those draws in your special marriage?

If your wife buys your crap, I feel really bad for her, and if she did "submit", and agrees to defer to you because of that senseless crap, then she's a victim of the worst kind of inequality and oppression.....she was brought up to believe that garbage instead of being encouraged to grow and blossom into an individual in mind, heart, and spirit.

What a pity.

zxaar

04/21/2010 08:22:53 PM · #69

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

HAHAHAHAHA.

"My marriage is closer/better than your marriage."

I'm dying here!

yes this was really funny. Equally amusing was reply by DrAchoo. :-D

04/21/2010 08:23:53 PM · #70

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

I'm dying here!

Don't tease!

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

04/21/2010 08:24:54 PM · #71

Originally posted by zxaar:

Do you remember date and time when you first met your wife???

Actually, I do, what's your point?

K3Master

Pentax K-3

04/21/2010 08:40:37 PM · #72

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:
HAHAHAHAHA.

"My marriage is closer/better than your marriage."

I'm dying here!

yes this was really funny. Equally amusing was reply by DrAchoo. :-D

I was talking about the two together, really. It's highly, highly amusing.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

04/21/2010 08:43:35 PM · #73

I just finished with Jason in IM about all this. He's flummoxed and probably pissed at me. I actually do understand the issue of equal but different partners that he is trying to represent, and I don't doubt that there is love and equality in his marriage (I don't know him in RL, so how dare I presume otherwise), but my contention is that he is assigning roles according to the statutes of his beliefs -- in effect, trying to shoehorn a real world situation into the tenets of his beliefs. I think it's unfortunate, but if it doesn't make either of them unhappy and it doesn't kill anyone, who cares.

About resolving ultimate impasses: I don't think a love relationship comes to an ultimate impasse; it probably ceases to be one at that point. I believe you can actively resolve important differences through discussion that is of the same spirit as the love relationship it concerns. I don't believe either partner needs to be set up as CEO/ultimate arbiter/decision maker/grand pooh-bah over the other; my sense simply rebels at this, and I have a very healthy suspicion that the concept is merely rooted in traditional belief than in anything that happily works universally for truly equal loving couples.

scalvert