| Author | Thread |
|
|
03/02/2010 02:32:59 PM · #1 |
So,
The recent framing challenge has brought up a couple of questions that I've never really seen answered in short simple terms (I'll bet that means there aren't any!!).
Essentially, how should the challenge rules be interpreted? I read:
Compose your subject so that it is "framed" on at least two sides with either foreground or background elements.
And here I think, ok, this is well defined, use elements on at least two sides that are in the foreground or background to frame a main subject.
Now, I saw over a dozen images in this contest that were absolutely not in line with that definition, essentially in three categories:
Case 1. No frame/frame is subject
Case 2. No main subject
Case 3. Frame was in same focal plane as subject
--
So should we read the contest rules as literal (note that most rules are read as literals), or interpretive? If you would go for the interpretive route, please weigh in with an explanation as to how you determine if an image should be classified as DNMC, or do you feel every image should be judged according to a rubric or some other criteria, if so, please share!
If we do find that there really are images that should be classified as DNMC, what action should you take? Is voting a 1 the right thing to do (some say it is, some say it's terrible!), or should the photo still be judged upon it's photographic merits (and if so, how much should be deducted for the DNMC?).
I don't know what to do when voting, it really is becoming an issue, because people say, if you're going to vote a 1, then post a comment, then if you post a comment, you get loads of feedback telling you that either you're interpreting the challenge incorrectly (too strictly?), or that even if it is a DNMC, the image still didn't deserve a 1..
In the end, I actually have gone back and bumped everyone's score to what I feel is a more generous score until I find some answers on this subject...
Cheers everyone, please, help me to understand what I should do here!!
|
|
|
|
03/02/2010 02:40:30 PM · #2 |
Sore point, here.
I've tried to suggest years ago, and again: topicality should be offered for the benefit of the photographer, not for the glee of some lynch mob swinging a bat. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 02:44:54 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Sore point, here.
I've tried to suggest years ago, and again: topicality should be offered for the benefit of the photographer, not for the glee of some lynch mob swinging a bat. |
So effectively your approach is to more-or-less disregard the challenge topic, and just vote on merits? That is certainly an interesting approach! I think we'd see the ribbon range move up to the 9's without a doubt, as I usually find everything (ok everything except one or three in each challenge) to be amazingly well shot here.
Message edited by author 2010-03-02 14:57:53. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 02:44:57 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I've tried to suggest years ago, and again: topicality should be offered for the benefit of the photographer, not for the glee of some lynch mob swinging a bat. |
Conversely, I am all for lynch mob glee. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 02:47:14 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I've tried to suggest years ago, and again: topicality should be offered for the benefit of the photographer, not for the glee of some lynch mob swinging a bat. |
Conversely, I am all for lynch mob glee. |
Art, that's mostly useless, but man!! you made me laugh! |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 03:15:06 PM · #6 |
To use an example from a recent challenge, how would you score this shot:
Now, keep in mind that the challenge is Headwear. Can anyone honestly extrapolate the idea of Headwear from a grinding wheel? Had the human subject been wearing face/head protection and it were visibly captured in the photo, this shot would have easily made it into the top-20. But since all we're seeing is hands and a grinder, it doesn't fit the challenge, at all. The title cannot even save it.
To me it's the same as the example I gave to you in the other thread. If I see a cat in a chair that is supremely well-lit, composed artfully, and is absolutely a remarkable image, I'd still give it a 1 if it were submitted into a Landscape challenge.
Anywho, that is how I would vote from a strict DNMC point of view. I will always give the shot the benefit of the doubt in case I don't see a correlation right away. Someone else entered a flower designed "shoe" in the last challenge. I'm sure quite a few people didn't see it right away, but others did. That's a chance you're taking when entering a OOB shot here. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 03:25:01 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by ti_evom:
To use an example from a recent challenge, how would you score this shot:
Anywho, that is how I would vote from a strict DNMC point of view. I will always give the shot the benefit of the doubt in case I don't see a correlation right away. Someone else entered a flower designed "shoe" in the last challenge. I'm sure quite a few people didn't see it right away, but others did. That's a chance you're taking when entering a OOB shot here. |
I have to agree. What is the point of having categories for the challenge if the photographer is going to do what they want anyway. I am still relatively new here and have not entered a challenge, but I have viewed enough to know what this site is about.
Some may disagree that a DNMC shouldn't get a 1, but should be judged on merit. How is that fair to those who did meet the challenge? What if it was the most perfect picture anyone on DPC had ever seen and it got all 10's (rolls eyes) and it didn't meet the challenge. How would that be fair?
When I do vote, I look closely to see if it meets the challenge. If I am unsure, I will either skip it and not vote, or comment and not vote, or give it the benifit of the doubt. The problem still lies in interpretation of the photographer in each challenge. I personally liked the Flower Shoe. Creative... and in my opinion met the challenge. The grinding wheel, I didn't get... I didn't vote on it either.
Wow...look at me ramble. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 03:26:00 PM · #8 |
I think perhaps the issue, in this case, is a little more specific than it's been parsed out here.
In this particular challenge the description said the subject should be framed by "foreground or background elements". Now, a valid case can be made that the only reason this specific degree of description was included was because in the past people have been so nit-picky as to say a subject was not "framed" unless the framing element itself was in front of the subject. In other words, these "letter-of-the-rule" voters would DNMC an image that showed a person standing in front of a doorway, say, on the grounds that the doorway is behind the subject and it can't be considered a "frame".
Now, of course, for we photographers, when we make images, "framing" is a visual quality and it's completely irrelevant where the "frame" is located in space relative to the subject.
So, for THIS challenge, I personally read that snippet of description as an attempt to remind people that a frame can be anywhere in space, behind, in front of, around, whatever. Now others, like Cory, interpreted it differently, seeing it as an instruction to NOT frame-in-the-same-plane as the subject; possibly as a means of discouraging the use of empty frames held up in front of faces? I donno... But I DO know this: that's not something that we can properly judge in a 2-dimensional image. How can we tell if something's in-front-of or in-the-same-plane-as? How far do you have to separate? Is 2 inches in front of enough? It gets really nitpicky, doesn't it? So I decided that wasn't what they meant... Evidently not everyone agrees with me :-)
Going back to the larger issue, let's just assume an image DOES have a frame and the frame is demonstrably in the same plane as the subject: given that situation, does the image deserve a 1 for DNMC? I would say "No!" There's a frame in the image, so it shows an attempt to respond to the challenge description. An image with no framing whatsoever, maybe a 1, sure, but....
I'm not a big fan of throwing around low scores for DNMC anyway. I'm with ZZ: the challenge topic is a tool to get us to stretch our comfort zone, not a weapon the voters can use to bludgeon us into submission. Where we are at now, any interpretation of the topic besides the most obvious is met with a barrage of low scores, and that's too bad, because by and large the most interesting images, IMO, are the ones that go off on a tangent suggested by the topic. THOSE are the creative images, the ones I love to view.
R. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 03:27:03 PM · #9 |
| I also wanted to mention that for those who are new to photography and are looking to learn, what does it say when they try their hardest to capture the best image possible and PP it to the best of their ability only to find out that their 3.2 image scored behind a great looking 3.3 photo that obviously DNMC? They might have spent hours trying to make their shot look great (to them at least), but in the end, the voters who don't care about shots meeting the challenge still give high marks because they look "pretty." This is the issue I have. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 03:30:40 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by ti_evom:
To use an example from a recent challenge, how would you score this shot:
Now, keep in mind that the challenge is Headwear. Can anyone honestly extrapolate the idea of Headwear from a grinding wheel? Had the human subject been wearing face/head protection and it were visibly captured in the photo, this shot would have easily made it into the top-20. But since all we're seeing is hands and a grinder, it doesn't fit the challenge, at all. The title cannot even save it... |
Whatever the challenge topic may be, as far as I'm concerned, that's between the photographer and himself. I would award the shot a 3 (minus) on what I see. I see the title, which diminishes the presentation (one of 9 criteria I measure). The initial 3 minus 0.5 (roughly) moves the score downward, but not significantly enough to make it a 2. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 03:36:45 PM · #11 |
Cory, I think that DNMC's are totally subject to the interruption of voters...and there is nothing in this world that can change that...I agree that several of the pictures in Framing are DNMC and my votes reflect that as well. What amazes me is how many people on here don't seem to read all the instructions completely before they go out and do their shoots. Their fault not mine.
There have been several heated conversations about this subject over and over...and I have come to the conclusion that if I feel it's a DNMC I will try to explain my lower vote, (bear in mind my lowest vote is probably on an average 4/5) that is the best any of us can do. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 03:36:46 PM · #12 |
I really can't justify giving an image the same vote if it fails to fit the topic, but I also try to leave some room for creative interpretation. If I don't think it meets the challenge, I will deduct some points depending on how far off base I think it is. Sometimes I can see how the photographer thought it fit (or tried to make it fit), but I just can't agree.
In the above example of the grinder, I would have likely given it a 7, and certainly saw, via the title, how it was supposed to fit. It got a 4 from me.
Another example, of my own:
The challenge description read "Take a photo of an animal at your local zoo and use it to advertise your zoo." I entered something that I felt fit the spirit of the challenge, though not the letter. It was not shot at the zoo, and there was not an animal in it.
I expected to get creamed by low votes for DNMC, and I did. Again, a fine line between creative interpretation and shoehorn, with voters falling on both sides of it.
|
|
|
|
03/02/2010 03:43:54 PM · #13 |
| In some respects photography is like writing. It doesn't matter how pretty your handwriting is if the message you're trying to convey doesn't come across. To me that's the point of the challenges is to use your photography to convey a message related to the topic. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:00:21 PM · #14 |
| I think you should stick to your guns and go with your first reaction. There's no right or wrong in having your own opinion. I personally think there are quite a few entries in the Framing IV challenge that did not meet the challenge also. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:03:36 PM · #15 |
I have been lurking around here since 2005. Sometimes I'm more active than at other times. It sometimes frustrates me that some pictures don't seem to even try to meet the challenge. It also frustrates me that some people will find a way to get a flower into every single challenge regardless of topic.
However, in 4+ years, I have only ever given one one - and that was because I found the image offensive. I thought it was one of Art's, but I couldn't find it in his portfolio. So, I guess I'm thinking of someone else. Even if I don't see how a picture fits a challenge, I give it at least a 3 because maybe I'm missing something. In the case of the flowers in the shape of a shoe - I didn't get it until the second time I saw it. I also think it takes a certain amount of guts to enter a challenge, so even if a picture is baaaaad - I'm going to give it a three. I have sat out many a challenge because I knew my picture would be skewered in the voting.
But, that's just my .02.
P.S. I would also like to see a challenge where posting a picture of a flower or a nude woman would be an automatic DQ. And no - I don't have anything against tastefully done nudes. I rather enjoy them. But, they're right up there with flowers for me - I get tired of seeing them in EVERY challenge. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:04:12 PM · #16 |
I'm sure mine is one that some people are considering DNMC. However, I do have something framed by a background or foreground element.
People are just thinking "main" subject has to be framed. It doesn't say that, it says "subject" not "main subject"
|
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:05:54 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
... People are just thinking "main" subject has to be framed. It doesn't say that, it says "subject" not "main subject" |
You're serious? Subject implies "Main" to me...
ETA to add def of subject.
Message edited by author 2010-03-02 16:06:31. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:08:44 PM · #18 |
Many shots have multiple subjects. If you have a subject in the foreground with a frame and a subject in the background, I think it fits the challenge.
|
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:20:12 PM · #19 |
I just vote the way I want to, and screw anyone else, and ignore people that message me about their photos completely, if I've commented about something they don't care for.
Nature of the beast. If I don't think your photo meets what I consider to be what the challenge should be about, you're going to get hammered. Isn't individuality wonderful? |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:29:05 PM · #20 |
This subject bugs me. LOL
Photography, like any art form, is subject to interpretation. Sometimes I may not see what the photographer saw and so it does make voting a very subjective and personal experience. I have commented "I don't get it." before. Usually I don't vote on those because I don't want to ruin a good score with my own misinterpretation of their art.
I still think that we vote how we vote and people enter what they enter and we take our chances both ways.
-------
Just thought of something to add... maybe there could be an additional vote button added that says DNMC - this way it wouldn't affect their overall score, but would let them know what was felt.... I dunno...just a thought.
Message edited by author 2010-03-02 16:30:52. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:35:34 PM · #21 |
Let me be perfectly clear on something:
Cory has his opinion (mentioning him since he's the OP) and I have mine, and they don't agree. I'm absolutely OK with that! I may expend a certain amount of energy into trying to bring Cory around to my way of thinking on this topic, but I'm not *invested* in any way in his "conversion". I think it's cool how so may different people go at this in so many different ways.
DPC often reminds me of the 53rd Bokononian Calypso from Kurt Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle":
Oh, a sleeping drunkard
Up in Central Park,
And a lion-hunter
In the jungle dark,
And a Chinese dentist,
And a British queen--
All fit together
In the same machine.
Nice, nice, very nice;
Nice, nice, very nice;
Nice, nice, very nice--
So many different people
In the same device.
R. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:47:56 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
DPC often reminds me of the 53rd Bokononian Calypso from Kurt Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle":
Oh, a sleeping drunkard
Up in Central Park,
And a lion-hunter
In the jungle dark,
And a Chinese dentist,
And a British queen--
All fit together
In the same machine.
Nice, nice, very nice;
Nice, nice, very nice;
Nice, nice, very nice--
So many different people
In the same device.
R. |
Me likey! |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 04:59:59 PM · #23 |
I do believe that people should try to meet the challenge. However, I try to be extremely open minded. If there's a frame somewhere in the foreground or background, and something else is being framed, that meets the challenge. I don't care if it's the main subject or just "something".
If flowers are shaped into the shape of a shoe, that meets the shoe challenge, imo. I think there's a lot of room for interpretation in challenges. Now if it's a shoe challenge and it's a picture of a peach. Nope. sorry.
|
|
|
|
03/02/2010 05:10:08 PM · #24 |
ok my .02 fwiw.
I think a blatant DNMC is a direct contradiction to the whole purpose of the site. it's a challenge. the challenge has rules. once met, then a photo should be voted on it's merits.
having said that i don't think i've ever handed out a 1. even the worst photo i see will get a 3. but that's part of my personal interpretation of the scoring.
if i see the most beautiful picture that dnmc, it will never get over a 6 from me. BUT i can understand a 1 vote from someone who feels it should be "dq'ed" on the missing of the challenge. (a forced comment with a 1 would be nice, even something as simple as DNMC)
eta: emphasis on blatant
Message edited by author 2010-03-02 17:16:25. |
|
|
|
03/02/2010 05:13:24 PM · #25 |
| I'm a victim of one of Cory's 1's and totally disagree with his interpretation that my subject is not framed by a background or foreground element but of an element on the same plane. To me it is clearly framed multiple times within the image and would be glad to post it at the end of the challenge to continue the discussion to see what others see. During the challenge it would be inappropriate to give details as to why I think this. But in the end I do not get overly excited about these issues because after being here almost six years I've seen 1's thrown around for all kinds of things. In the end it all works out. I'm more in line with Bear's attitude about it and do not hold any animosity toward anyone for their opinion. |
|
