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02/11/2010 01:56:37 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by LVicari:
Where do I find those options (M,Tv,Av) on my camera? |
You`re kidding right? |
lol thats exactly what I was thinking |
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02/11/2010 01:57:24 PM · #27 |
| Sorry, Leo, I took em off so you could become a better photographer. |
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02/11/2010 02:17:40 PM · #28 |
For starters, I shoot manual because I can and I feel greater ownership over the work. It's fun, more challenging and a skill set I love to employ. Using those preset modes would make me feel like I was cheating and I see being in full control of the settings, as a point of pride. I already feel guilty enough about auto-focus...
That's my opinion, anyway, and I'm sticking to it.
I've used the A mode twice and the P mode once and the images came out like crap. I wasn't happy with the cameras exposure choices and I believe I do a better job without much more effort. Last Spring some HS kids were Slap Boxing in the street while about 20 excited kids watched and cheered...a great moment. I whipped out my camera and knowing that the scene would only last a few seconds I flipped into P Mode. All the images were way underexposed...lost. That's all for the P Mode, over and out.
Occasionally I look at the exposure choices the meter makes when in A and I'm usually stunned. Not even in the ball park of where I would be so, I just take the reigns.
eta: Shooting in the city and spot metering to "0" isn't always the best way either to get an even exposure of a scene but far better than the A,S,P modes. It does get me in the ball park...if I'm not already sure.
Message edited by author 2010-02-11 14:40:04. |
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02/11/2010 02:23:15 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by LVicari:
Where do I find those options (M,Tv,Av) on my camera? |
You`re kidding right? |
Sounds sarcastic, but it might be because he's joking around because he has M, A, and S instead. Personally, I'll never buy a camera system that uses M, A, and S. Tv and Av are just so sexy. (My camera even has Sv and TAv! Take that!).
As to the OP, dude, sometimes this kind of mentality makes me weep for photography. This mentality that "the camera does a good enough job" or "Why would I need anything but the green setting?" That might be good enough for your basic soccer mom, but once you really break out of the comfortable rut that is program or auto mode, and really begin to learn your camera and what it can do beyond such modes, and how much control and freedom you can have using Manual, I can't understand how anyone could use auto-modes again, outside of the 'family picnic just want fun shots' days.
It's almost like a continuing symptom of the whole "Mediocrity is simply good enough" mentality that frustrates me so much around here. |
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02/11/2010 03:03:25 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
As to the OP, dude, sometimes this kind of mentality makes me weep for photography. This mentality that "the camera does a good enough job" or "Why would I need anything but the green setting?" That might be good enough for your basic soccer mom, but once you really break out of the comfortable rut that is program or auto mode, and really begin to learn your camera and what it can do beyond such modes, and how much control and freedom you can have using Manual, I can't understand how anyone could use auto-modes again, outside of the 'family picnic just want fun shots' days.
It's almost like a continuing symptom of the whole "Mediocrity is simply good enough" mentality that frustrates me so much around here. |
Oooooo. I like that. Great post. |
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02/11/2010 03:05:43 PM · #31 |
For me, shooting in manual mode is much easier than trying to outwit the other modes. I spot meter, but determine my exposure entirely by the histogram.
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02/11/2010 03:17:38 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by pointandshoot:
For me, shooting in manual mode is much easier than trying to outwit the other modes. I spot meter, but determine my exposure entirely by the histogram. |
I've been using the histogtam a lot more lately, but it's still hard to fully understand. Do you know of a good reference to learn from regarding histograms? |
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02/11/2010 03:59:17 PM · #33 |
At a photo show a couple of years ago I gave a talk entitled
"Free Your Soul: The relationship between f-stop and shutter speed
-or-
Controlling light by going from "P" to "M""
The talk can be summed it by (sorry for the image size, I'll smallify later)
You can either let the camera control the variables of exposure or you can control the variables.
I contend that once you control the variables -or- let the camera control the variables in the manner you want them controlled (ie - you control the variables, albeit through the camera) then, and only then can your soul be freed to express what you want to express.
Know thy camera, know thyself.
[If anyone is interested the slides are at: //www.alfrescostudios.com/freeyoursoul/final-copy-free-your-soul.html]
Free your soul by understanding light, do so starting at "M". |
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02/11/2010 04:00:14 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by chazoe:
Do you know of a good reference to learn from regarding histograms? |
pretty good article. |
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02/11/2010 04:11:08 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by pointandshoot:
Originally posted by chazoe:
Do you know of a good reference to learn from regarding histograms? |
pretty good article. |
Thank you. |
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02/11/2010 05:06:52 PM · #36 |
I'm sure this has been suggested, but I'll say it anyway:
Keep it in M(anual), with spot metering. Then, meter different parts of the image (or a single part if you don't have the time) and make sure everything is where it should be. For example, if I'm shooting a snowy scene, the snow will be at +1.7, tops... and trees will be at least at -1.0. This will guarantee that I don't get medium-gray snow and black trees.
If you're doing something like a portrait with the sunset in the background and fill flash lighting the subject, you'll want to do the following:
Very low ISO, 200 max
Small aperture, f/8 or f/11
Adjust shutter so that the sky is no higher than +1.3, tops
Adjust in-camera EV to however light you want your subject to be. If it's a white person, +0.3 should work well. Black, -0.3 or -0.7 (some would suggest even -1.0). This will tell your camera that whatever you point it at should be at that EV value. Remember that your ISO/Aperture/Shutter are all set, so the sky will look the same no matter what. The only thing the camera will do now to make sure that your subject is properly lit is adjust the flash level.
Point camera at subject, half-press, reframe. This will make your camera calculate the required flash level for the EV value you set earlier.
See? Manual is great when you want to make sure that (1) all parts of your image will be within the dynamic range of your camera and (2) your subject is properly lit when you already have set the ISO (for minimum noise), your Aperture (for maximum DoF and sharpness), and your shutter (for proper exposure of naturally lit elements).
Message edited by author 2010-02-11 17:07:29. |
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02/11/2010 05:19:21 PM · #37 |
I posted this before I went to bed last night, I was expecting 1 or 2 answers, not 2 pages worth!
Thanks all for the replies, I can see where it would make sense for studio (which I never do), flash stuff (which I rarely do), and like Bear was talking about with difficult landscape shots.
However, I do have to say that I a lot of what I've read here also sounds like camera snobbery, "I shoot manual therefor I'm a better photographer" type of attitude.
To come back to the car simile, F1 cars don't use full manual, they use semi-auto paddle controls, but I would love to hear anyone say they don't have full control over their cars. Doesn't this equate to using A or P modes with exposure comp?
If you are shooting for DOF in manual, you would prioritize your aperture setting and then set the shutter speed to expose. If you're shooting for a speed critical shot, you would set your shutter speed and then set your aperture to expose (ignoring for a second ISO). Given that unless you are using a hand held meter (in which case I completely understand why you would use manual) then you are relying on the cameras metering system to give you information about the exposure, and then making the same settings the camera would except much slower.
Don't get me wrong, I think manual mode is a great way to learn how exposure / aperture / shutter works, and I did this very thing for ages when I first got my D70s and would encourage anyone to do the same, but I think to feel that you have to keep it there because that's how the "good photographers" do it, is just nonsense.
 K10DGuy, I never said "good enough", or indicated "mediocrity", and for those of you who think anything other than manual is "cheating", surely the ultimate objective is to get the best possible photo with the means at your disposal. Would you also consider a tripod cheating, or how about remote flashes, surely they are cheating as well as they never had those in the day's of manual mode only cameras.
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02/11/2010 05:23:15 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by LVicari:
Where do I find those options (M,Tv,Av) on my camera? |
You`re kidding right? |
C'mon Mark! you're not the only one with some wit :) |
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02/11/2010 05:24:05 PM · #39 |
I haven't used a camera on any auto mode for decades, and I'm not kidding or exaggerating. To me manual mode is the only way to operate a camera. I take photos of birds and leave everything on manual, even focusing. I can see myself using auto for sports but I don't do sports. I use spot metering only.
I didn't read the thread but plan to after supper tonight.
Message edited by author 2010-02-11 17:25:29. |
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02/11/2010 05:28:37 PM · #40 |
I started using Manual for street shooting, and it's changed my life (an overstatement maybe). Since I mostly use manual focus, I need some control over the aperture. I also need a fast shutter. This means I have to underexpose a lot of shots, but I can usually recover a stop or more with the Sigma. It also means I'm constantly metering.
If there's one automatic setting I'd be okay with in Manual mode, it's ISO. On the Sigma, anything between 100 and 800 is fine with me. But in Manual mode, you have to set it manually as well. I wonder if this is true of other cameras... |
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02/11/2010 05:33:09 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by bvy:
I started using Manual for street shooting, and it's changed my life (an overstatement maybe). Since I mostly use manual focus, I need some control over the aperture. I also need a fast shutter. This means I have to underexpose a lot of shots, but I can usually recover a stop or more with the Sigma. It also means I'm constantly metering.
If there's one automatic setting I'd be okay with in Manual mode, it's ISO. On the Sigma, anything between 100 and 800 is fine with me. But in Manual mode, you have to set it manually as well. I wonder if this is true of other cameras... |
Really??? What do you find the advantages are there and what makes you find manual better? |
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02/11/2010 05:48:23 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
Originally posted by bvy:
I started using Manual for street shooting, and it's changed my life (an overstatement maybe). Since I mostly use manual focus, I need some control over the aperture. I also need a fast shutter. This means I have to underexpose a lot of shots, but I can usually recover a stop or more with the Sigma. It also means I'm constantly metering.
If there's one automatic setting I'd be okay with in Manual mode, it's ISO. On the Sigma, anything between 100 and 800 is fine with me. But in Manual mode, you have to set it manually as well. I wonder if this is true of other cameras... |
Really??? What do you find the advantages are there and what makes you find manual better? |
Keep in mind this was an evolutionary process for me. The Sigma compacts I use have very slow autofocus for street shooting, so I started using manual focus a while back. Specifically zone focusing, which you do by pre-setting your aperture (f-stop). So I used Aperture priority for a long time. Problem was, at say f/5.6 in overcast conditions, I was getting very slow shutter speeds (less than 1/100) and a lot of blurred shots. So I tried Shutter priority for a while, but couldn't control the focus since it would usually drag the f-stop down to 4. I started using Manual when I noticed I was able to acceptably recover a very underexposed image I captured in RAW. So this works for me. I meter against the pavement any time the light changes dramatically.
With my Olympus DSLR, which has pretty responsive autofocus, I usually set the Shutter and let the camera find focus and set the aperture. |
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02/11/2010 05:52:18 PM · #43 |
| I shoot manual, mostly because back in the day that's all there was. I've tried shooting in aperture and shutter modes, but in manual I can change either at will. So I just leave it on manual and go. |
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02/11/2010 08:08:31 PM · #44 |
I only shoot in two modes. AV mode and full manual. about 90% of my shooting a year is in manual mode. I shoot approx. 40K frames a year and very few of them are in anything other then manual mode. Metering on these cameras is pretty good, but can easily be fooled by dark/light foregrounds or backgrounds. I prefer to pick what is metered properly and what I can over/under expose on a frame, the camera will mostly settle for middle ground and pick that for you. I also do a lot of manual off camera flash/strobe work and any mode but manual will be useless.
Matt |
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02/11/2010 08:24:57 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
To come back to the car simile, F1 cars don't use full manual, they use semi-auto paddle controls, but I would love to hear anyone say they don't have full control over their cars. Doesn't this equate to using A or P modes with exposure comp? |
No, it doesn't. Paddle-shifting high-performance vehicles have an automated clutch; you tell it when to shift, it does the actual clutching and shifting faster and more precisely than you can do.
The problem with the analogy is that the camera itself is constantly changing its baseline exposure depending on what wanders in/out of the metering zone, and what metering mode you are using. Therefore, a preset EV compensation is useless, even dangerous.
It's as if the vehicle started telling you when it wanted to shift, and actually started shifting on you unless you told it not to.
R. |
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02/11/2010 09:07:00 PM · #46 |
"Cheshire-Cat," said Alice, "please could you tell me which way I should go?"
"That depends on where you want to go," the Cheshire-Cat answered.
"I don't really care," said Alice.
Well it doesn't matter then, does it?" the Cheshire-Cat said.
"As long as I get somewhere," said Alice quickly. |
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02/11/2010 09:13:50 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
I posted this before I went to bed last night, I was expecting 1 or 2 answers, not 2 pages worth!
Thanks all for the replies, I can see where it would make sense for studio (which I never do), flash stuff (which I rarely do), and like Bear was talking about with difficult landscape shots.
However, I do have to say that I a lot of what I've read here also sounds like camera snobbery, "I shoot manual therefor I'm a better photographer" type of attitude.
To come back to the car simile, F1 cars don't use full manual, they use semi-auto paddle controls, but I would love to hear anyone say they don't have full control over their cars. Doesn't this equate to using A or P modes with exposure comp?
If you are shooting for DOF in manual, you would prioritize your aperture setting and then set the shutter speed to expose. If you're shooting for a speed critical shot, you would set your shutter speed and then set your aperture to expose (ignoring for a second ISO). Given that unless you are using a hand held meter (in which case I completely understand why you would use manual) then you are relying on the cameras metering system to give you information about the exposure, and then making the same settings the camera would except much slower.
Don't get me wrong, I think manual mode is a great way to learn how exposure / aperture / shutter works, and I did this very thing for ages when I first got my D70s and would encourage anyone to do the same, but I think to feel that you have to keep it there because that's how the "good photographers" do it, is just nonsense.
K10DGuy, I never said "good enough", or indicated "mediocrity", and for those of you who think anything other than manual is "cheating", surely the ultimate objective is to get the best possible photo with the means at your disposal. Would you also consider a tripod cheating, or how about remote flashes, surely they are cheating as well as they never had those in the day's of manual mode only cameras. |
Well, your 'camera snobbery" comment is a bit out of line, seeing as your OP suggested that manual was only good for learning, implying that once you know all you need to know, you don't need manual anymore.
So, if your question was legitimately asking what the value of the manual setting is (as opposed to just arguing a position that it is unnecessary), then you got some useful answers here.
The various modes are all wonderful for their intended purposes and users. I rarely left the auto setting when I first started shooting back in the dark ages of film, until I began shooting with a view camera: big empty box, that: I installed and focused the lens, dialed the aperture directly, fired a mechanical trigger, loaded a single sheet of film, pulled the slide, timed the exposure with my watch often as not, shaded the lens with my hat. The only electronics in the equation was my spot meter, and the computer to decide the settings was me. Very slow, deliberate process. As a result, I seldom use anything but the manual mode on my D90 now, since, as Bear said, otherwise the camera is making its own decisions without necessarily informing me of them, making for surprises later. Too many cooks in the kitchen.
But the other modes allow the camera to become a great assistant: when the situations demand it, I can say to the camera, okay--you take care of this other stuff for me, I'll compose and release the shutter. And as long as we understand each other, it works, okay, same as ttl flash use.
When I have a image in my mind that I want to achieve: This Composition and This Depth of Field and This Motion Blur and This Contrast and This Mood and Below This ISO To Avoid Noise, well, "Manual" is then THE way to go, and is actually horribly misnamed: "Manual" makes it sound like a lot of work. If they called it Full Control, it would be more attractive, maybe. If they called Auto "No Control At All" people would be less inclined to use it :-)
If the Guv'mint finds out just what a High can be achieved when dialing aperture with your index finger on the front wheel, shutter speed on the back wheel with the thumb, composing, zooming, focusing with the left hand, taking shot after shot all while never taking your eye from the viewfinder, and KNOWING you nailed it without chimping and nothing was automatic, well, they will pass a law against it. Until then..... |
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02/11/2010 09:20:14 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
To come back to the car simile, F1 cars don't use full manual, they use semi-auto paddle controls, but I would love to hear anyone say they don't have full control over their cars. Doesn't this equate to using A or P modes with exposure comp? |
No, it doesn't. Paddle-shifting high-performance vehicles have an automated clutch; you tell it when to shift, it does the actual clutching and shifting faster and more precisely than you can do.
The problem with the analogy is that the camera itself is constantly changing its baseline exposure depending on what wanders in/out of the metering zone, and what metering mode you are using. Therefore, a preset EV compensation is useless, even dangerous.
It's as if the vehicle started telling you when it wanted to shift, and actually started shifting on you unless you told it not to.
R. |
not to get totally off on another subject but... My high performance auto w/paddle shifting does exactly that. it will shift according to how it thinks you are driving unless you tell it otherwise with paddle input...Audi S4
now on the photography side of things.. I typically use Aperture priority, but I also use the exposure lock button, which gives be a "base line" then I can quickly use my EV adjustment up or down to manipulate the exposure how I want. All my EV button does, when I'm in Aperture priority, is adjust my exposure time to under/over expose the photo. For me this method is easier/faster than metering multiple areas and switching back and forth between Ap and full M.
Message edited by author 2010-02-11 21:21:59. |
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02/11/2010 09:52:11 PM · #49 |
Well, I'm a total hack, so all you experts can just stop reading right here.
I shoot sort of fully automatic, but the settings/limits are based on how I shoot, whaty I shoot, when I shoot, and the limitatiomns of my own skills and the camera's shortcomings.
I shot full manual for about a year so that I could figure out what I was doing and get familiar with my camera. I learned how it does things, and I learned how certain functions accomplished certain tasks, so that once I was much more familiar with what I wanted, and what the camera did in a given situation, I tailored the settings to an automatic menu that works just terrific for me. My camera goes with me everywhere, every day, and quite often I just pull it up and shoot, most of the time in a situation where I don't have the luxury of doinking settings. Yeah, if I'm in a completely controlled environment, sure, I'll take the time to go for the optimal settings, but I rarely have that.
Cameras today have serious processors with a myriad of ways to set them for your specific needs. I figure I know enough what I'm doing, how my camera does things, and what I want, so that I *am* able to get the shot I want, the way I want, most of the time with my own auto configuration.
Just my $0.02 US.....
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02/11/2010 09:55:58 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by ASTONishing:
now on the photography side of things.. I typically use Aperture priority, but I also use the exposure lock button, which gives be a "base line" then I can quickly use my EV adjustment up or down to manipulate the exposure how I want. All my EV button does, when I'm in Aperture priority, is adjust my exposure time to under/over expose the photo. For me this method is easier/faster than metering multiple areas and switching back and forth between Ap and full M. |
That's one of my auto settings. I also use auto ISO, with tailored limits on ISO and shutter. I also use auto WB except with some of my night shots where there's a heavy concentration of sodium lights.
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