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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Pros and Cons of CCD and CMOS
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 02/17/2004 10:20:27 AM · #1
I was wondering if any of my fellow DPCers would like to weigh in on the pros and cons of both CCD and CMOS technology. I know there's tons of websites out there that can answer this but I'd love to hear your opinions. Thanx.
 02/17/2004 10:56:59 AM · #2
I prefer the ones with more letters in the acronyms.

Vowels boost my opinion too.
 02/17/2004 11:02:06 AM · #3
Originally posted by Gordon:
I prefer the ones with more letters in the acronyms.

Vowels boost my opinion too.


So in your opinion it's the oxide that makes it better? .....awaits a smart answer...
 02/17/2004 11:06:00 AM · #4
Alternatively, read

this or this.

Less of a smart answer I guess.
 02/17/2004 11:06:54 AM · #5
that answer was about as 'smart' as they come...

Originally posted by Gordon:
I prefer the ones with more letters in the acronyms.

Vowels boost my opinion too.

 02/17/2004 11:17:39 AM · #6
CCD are more expensive, power comsumer and slow to transfer data. But can get a huge luminous data. The dinamic range of a CCD can be up to 2 stops more than a CMOS. This is very useful with landscape photogaphy were nature puts out more that 10 stops in dynamic range. Film media can get a dynamic range of 8 stops. Note the EOS 1Ds, it can get almost 7 stops in RAW mode. CMOS, are cheaper, then obvious more limited in dynamic range. Cannon made serious work with CMOS, until now the best implementation of it. CMOS tends to be noisy than CCD, this sweep the dynamic range too. It´s less power consumer and transfer data quickly. Except by Canon DSLRs all other implementation of CMOS are bad taste. They improve the noise and has a very small dynamic range.
I really preffer CCD. Note that the best sensor at the moment are Foveon X3 (a type of improved CCD) and Fuji´s S3 with amazing 8 stops dynamic range two layer CCD. The future points to CCD, but the low entry market are migrating all to CMOS. That´s because I proffer the professional choise: CCD.
 02/17/2004 11:46:30 AM · #7
Originally posted by Gordon:
Alternatively, read

this or this.

Less of a smart answer I guess.


I Googled CCD vs. CMOS before starting this thread. Thanks anyway.
 02/17/2004 11:58:58 AM · #8
Originally posted by GoodEnd:
Note that the best sensor at the moment are Foveon X3 (a type of improved CCD)


?????????? What, CA and noise from that sensor say otherwise...
Now if IBM made it on their cmos process I might agree :-)

All sensors have benefits and pitfalls same as everything in life, I like my cmos though :) Canons process works better than most.
 02/17/2004 12:37:53 PM · #9
Originally posted by GoodEnd:
Film media can get a dynamic range of 8 stops.


If your shooting techpan maybe, Velvia gives a 5 stop range like many other slide films. I've used both CCD and CMOS. I"VE NEVER heard or seen that CCD"S have less noise than CMOS. Always the oppposite in my dealings. Now CMOS images are usually softer than CCD's, but sharpening in PS takes care of that.

02/17/2004 12:53:58 PM · #10
In terms of electronics cmos will always be noisier than ccd. The point is the main exponents of cmos are Canon and Kodak, Canon have a very good manufacturing process and Kodaks is quite good aswell hence the noise we see is not always representative :-)
 02/17/2004 01:11:39 PM · #11
But CCD's run hotter, and that increases noise in the file. Or are we comparing htem at the same temp?
 02/17/2004 01:13:11 PM · #12
Has anyone else looked at the high-ISO samples from the new Canon 1D Mark II? Here are some direct-from-camera, full-size (8MP) samples:

ISO 800 | ISO 1600 | ISO 3200

ISO 3200 looks better than ISO 1600 on my 10D! I think it's an understatement to say that Canon has any CMOS noise issues "under control"...
 02/17/2004 01:28:11 PM · #13
Originally posted by EddyG:
Has anyone else looked at the high-ISO samples from the new Canon 1D Mark II? Here are some direct-from-camera, full-size (8MP) samples:

ISO 800 | ISO 1600 | ISO 3200

ISO 3200 looks better than ISO 1600 on my 10D! I think it's an understatement to say that Canon has any CMOS noise issues "under control"...


Pretty impressive. Less noise than the new Powershot Pro 1 at 50 ISO, especially in the outdoor shot. Check this out. I know "apples and oranges". But it is CMOS vs. CCD
 02/17/2004 02:17:42 PM · #14
Originally posted by MeThoS:
But CCD's run hotter, and that increases noise in the file. Or are we comparing htem at the same temp?


From how I understand it the electrical advantage of ccd should still lead to better pictures -- could be in error of course... Don't get me wrong I prefer cmos by the way.

EddyG -- I was aware of that, and thats what progress will do for you :-)

cmos also has the advantage (From my understanding) that it can potentially work more like the eye than ccds so have greater dynamic range...
Incidently isn't cmos actually properly called a cmos ccd? as cmos' are ccd's IF I recall correctly :-)
 02/17/2004 02:24:35 PM · #15
Originally posted by GoodEnd:
Film media can get a dynamic range of 8 stops.


Most slide film is about 5 stops. Negative films, maybe another stop.

With B&W films, there are ways to compress a huge contrast range (16 or so stops) into the film's limited range. Those methods involve exposing for the darkest shadow areas and using water baths and controlled agitation during development and are tricky at best. They can produce incredible results if well controlled. I have produced negatives where ranges well beyond what the eyes are capable of seeing are compressed into a printable range on the neg.

Dunno how this could be achieved with any current digital camera. I understand that some of the digital backs like the Phase One's and Leaf Backs have much broader dynamics ranges, 12 f-stops for the H-25 according to the Phase One website, but that runs about $27K or so.

I know about contrast masking, but this would be a lot more involved that simply replacing a relatively discrete area like a sky.
02/17/2004 02:51:51 PM · #16
Coincidentally enough, Chuck Westfall (of Canon USA) just posted this reply to a thread over on the forums at Rob Galbraith where it was asked:

1) How many "stops of light" does the 1D Mark II sensor recognize and or record?

The dynamic range of the EOS-1D Mark II sensor is approximately 9 stops.
 02/17/2004 02:58:18 PM · #17
Isn't the actual 'printable' range somewhere around 5 stops ?
 02/17/2004 03:11:56 PM · #18
Originally posted by Gordon:
Isn't the actual 'printable' range somewhere around 5 stops ?


For most B&W papers, yes, if I remember correctly. It has been a while since I did any of this.
 02/17/2004 03:28:59 PM · #19
Originally posted by GoodEnd:
Film media can get a dynamic range of 8 stops.

Hey, I´m talking about negative film! Slide film has a dynamic range over 5 stops near of most digicams and DSLRs.

Message edited by author 2004-02-17 15:38:35.
 02/17/2004 03:37:45 PM · #20
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Isn't the actual 'printable' range somewhere around 5 stops ?


For most B&W papers, yes, if I remember correctly. It has been a while since I did any of this.

Stops are a useful term to camera exposure. But to printing it need to be converted to contrasty ratio value, a useful term to printing that mean a range of distinct tones of light (ink) that can be noticed. The 8 stops that negative film achieve are equivalent to almost a contrasty of 500:1 ratio (449:1, but I said 500 to round calculations). A good paper printed in colors can achieve a contrasty value of 50:1 ratio. If you want to talk abaout stops, it will give you the value rounding 0.8 Stops, that is very limited. That´s why Zone System is so useful! Only to count, the humam eye are capable of achieve 1000000:1 of contrasty ratio.
 02/17/2004 03:40:33 PM · #21
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I understand that some of the digital backs like the Phase One's and Leaf Backs have much broader dynamics ranges, 12 f-stops for the H-25 according to the Phase One website, but that runs about $27K or so.


And for about $60k you can get 26 stops.

Message edited by author 2005-02-25 15:50:37.
 02/17/2004 03:56:35 PM · #22
Chuck Westfall:
The dynamic range of the EOS-1D Mark II sensor is approximately 9 stops.

Does anyone now hom much the S3 is supposed to have with its S+R sensor blending?


02/17/2004 07:26:11 PM · #23
Originally posted by GoodEnd:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Isn't the actual 'printable' range somewhere around 5 stops ?


For most B&W papers, yes, if I remember correctly. It has been a while since I did any of this.

Stops are a useful term to camera exposure. But to printing it need to be converted to contrasty ratio value, a useful term to printing that mean a range of distinct tones of light (ink) that can be noticed. The 8 stops that negative film achieve are equivalent to almost a contrasty of 500:1 ratio (449:1, but I said 500 to round calculations). A good paper printed in colors can achieve a contrasty value of 50:1 ratio. If you want to talk abaout stops, it will give you the value rounding 0.8 Stops, that is very limited. That´s why Zone System is so useful! Only to count, the humam eye are capable of achieve 1000000:1 of contrasty ratio.


If you are saying that B&W photographic paper only has a range of 0.8 stops, you are incorrect. If that were the case, it would be impossible for me and other photographers using pinhole cameras to use photographic paper to create the negative.


02/25/2005 03:12:24 PM · #24
I noticed the use of dynamic range and f stop togeether in a lot of sentences, what exactly is dynamic range when it come to camera censors?

Leon
02/25/2005 03:20:07 PM · #25
Originally posted by LEONJR:
I noticed the use of dynamic range and f stop togeether in a lot of sentences, what exactly is dynamic range when it come to camera censors?

Leon


Dynamic range is the difference between the brightest and dimmest areas that still retain detail. In photographic work, it's usually expressed in stops, which makes sense 'cause photogs understand stops. In more general terms, it's usually expressed in dB (decibels). It's really the difference between the maximum signal that does not cause overload (blown highlights in the case of an image sensor) and the noise floor (where detail becomes obscured by noise).
Dynamic range in a given digital camera varies quite a bit with ISO. As you crank up the ISO, the useful dynamic range is reduced due to increasing noise.
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