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01/02/2010 09:30:13 PM · #3676 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
...and suggest that people are incapable of good if they don't believe in a god (your 'absolute moral compass' opinion) without acknowledging acts of kindness that aren't done in the name of religion. YOU ARE DOING THE VERY THING YOU PROTEST! |
"Absolute moral compass" doesn't have to mean that, and I'm positive that, for Jason, it doesn't. There's one thing you can't deny, Shannon; we "Westerners" have lived in a society informed by the Judeo-Christian mores and ethos for over 2,000 years, and that is a foundation that every one of us, to some extent, grows up standing upon whether or not our parents are churchgoers and whether or not we, personally, are believers.
R. |
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01/02/2010 09:33:29 PM · #3677 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
One of the many things I have been wondering for a while--if God is all powerful and all knowing, why did He need Jesus to die for our sins? Why not just forgive everyone? |
I'm going to write this out for you because it's the best explanation I've ever come across. This is taken from Fifty Reasons Why Jesus Came to Die by John Piper.
"If God were not just, there would be no demand for his Son to suffer and die. And if God were not loving, there would be no willingness for his Son to suffer and die. But God is both just and loving. Therefor his love is willing to meet the demands of his justice."
"The seriousness of an insult rises with the dignity of the one insulted. The Creator of the universe is infinitely worth of respect and admiration and loyalty. Therefore, failure to love him is not trivial--it is treason."
"Since God is just, he does not sweep these crimes under the rug of the universe. He feels a holy wrath against them. They deserve to be punished, and he has made this clear: "For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)."
This is how I would answer your questions in my own words. God is all power and all knowing, but he is also holy and just. Sin against God requires punishment, because if it is left unpunished it makes God less holy. God does not contradict himself, therefore he does not allow himself to become less holy. His anger burns against sin, which is why people needed to offer sacrifices to God to atone for their sins before Christ. When Christ died he bore the wrath of God and the punishment of death that we deserved. Because of that, God's wrath is no longer upon us and we are in right standing with him (when we accept Christ as Lord of course).
Here's a good analogy for you. Imagine that you're in a court room. God is the judge, and you are the convict. You plead guilty to the charge of murder, and you're awaiting your death sentence. Right as God is about to read the verdict, his own son Jesus steps up and says, "wait! I will bare the punishment that this person deserves." So, God sentences his son to death and you get to go free. The crime was paid for and the judge is satisfied, and your record is cleared.
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01/02/2010 09:53:52 PM · #3678 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
\ One false doctrine is that Catholicism teaches grace can be earned through works (such as participating in the sacraments), and that it is required for salvation. The Bible clearly teaches that grace is given freely by God to those who have faith in Christ, and it cannot be earned. |
And yet many places in the bible say that baptism (a sacrament) IS required for salvation, Mark 16:15-18 just to name one.
I highly recommend you shy away from labeling Catholics as "false" Christians. Stick to what you know, and obviously you know precious little about Catholicism. |
I didn't say that Catholics were false Christians. I said that they are technically Christians but they practice false doctrine. Mark 16:15-18 says, "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". That sounds like baptism is required right? But then it says, "whoever does not believe will be condemned". Notice, Jesus does not say those who believe but are not baptized will be condemned. Also, Jesus dose not specifically say baptism is required for salvation, he just says that if you are baptized and believe then you are saved.
Baptism + belief = salvation. Belief (without baptism) = belief. So without the baptism, you still have belief. And the Bible clearly says that belief = salvation.
John 5:24 - "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
John 6:40 - "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life"
John 6:47 - "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."
The list goes on and on...
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
You (Christians) are right, and they (Cathoilics & Mormons) are pretty much clueless, misguided, and wrong? |
Not clueless, just mistaken. I believe that some Catholics and maybe even Mormons "have it right", and I also believe that many protestant Christians "have it wrong". Whether or not we're right or wrong is all up to God. I just go with what the Bible says, and I believe that Mormons and Catholics are a bit off on certain subjects. That doesn't mean they're all wrong, and I certainly don't profess that I've got it all right. The only person who had it all right was Jesus Christ. No human is all right.
edit: I should add that what religion you follow does not determine if your saved, only what you believe determines that. I can't tell who's saved just by looking at them. I wonderif certain Catholics are saved sometimes, but I also wonder if certain protestants are saved too.
Message edited by author 2010-01-02 21:59:00. |
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01/02/2010 10:12:10 PM · #3679 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Not clueless, just mistaken. I believe that some Catholics and maybe even Mormons "have it right", and I also believe that many protestant Christians "have it wrong". Whether or not we're right or wrong is all up to God. I just go with what the Bible says, and I believe that Mormons and Catholics are a bit off on certain subjects. That doesn't mean they're all wrong, and I certainly don't profess that I've got it all right. The only person who had it all right was Jesus Christ. No human is all right.
edit: I should add that what religion you follow does not determine if your saved, only what you believe determines that. I can't tell who's saved just by looking at them. I wonder if certain Catholics are saved sometimes, but I also wonder if certain protestants are saved too. |
Just out of curiosity, how am I supposed to know you're not mistaken, and they're right?
What do have to tell me to make me believe you have the right way?
So there really isn't anything for someone who doesn't necessarily subscribe to one religion over another to really convince him that your way, or their way, is right, is there?
You believe, but you don't know.
It's really going to be a matter of whichever evangelist is the smoothest and most convincing talker because none of you can truly say you know the truth.
That's where I have the issues.......how am I supposed to be able to sift through all of that......and make a logical choice?
Message edited by author 2010-01-02 22:16:35.
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01/02/2010 10:18:16 PM · #3680 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's where I have the issues.......how am I supposed to be able to sift through all of that......and make a logical choice? |
Faith has nothing to do with logic. If logic entered the equation, it wouldn't be faith any longer. Seriously. You can choose not to have faith, that's your choice, but it makes no sense to attempt to use logic to debunk another's faith, because these concepts aren't even on the same planet, basically :-)
R. |
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01/02/2010 10:22:18 PM · #3681 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Here's a good analogy for you. Imagine that you're in a court room. God is the judge, and you are the convict. You plead guilty to the charge of murder, and you're awaiting your death sentence. Right as God is about to read the verdict, his own son Jesus steps up and says, "wait! I will bare the punishment that this person deserves." So, God sentences his son to death and you get to go free. The crime was paid for and the judge is satisfied, and your record is cleared. |
Twitch! BEAR.....
This makes no sense. If you are not held responsible for the consequences of your actions, there will be anarchy.
Though I understand the premise, why would there ever be any reason for us to NOT sin if we've been forgiven?
And one other thing.......I refuse to accept being automatically cast as a sinner for something someone else did countless years ago before I was even born! I'm responsible for my actions, period.
Religion, and explanations of this kind make so little sense on a rational level, it's no wonder there is doubt and confusion.
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01/02/2010 10:41:12 PM · #3682 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's where I have the issues.......how am I supposed to be able to sift through all of that......and make a logical choice? |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Faith has nothing to do with logic. If logic entered the equation, it wouldn't be faith any longer. Seriously. You can choose not to have faith, that's your choice, but it makes no sense to attempt to use logic to debunk another's faith, because these concepts aren't even on the same planet, basically :-)
R. |
I'm not trying to debunk anyone's faith. I simply want to know why, if faith is a presonal thing, and it has to be accepted and believed I should choose one over the other.
So why do religions constantly try to sell people on their brand?
If you want to sell me something, you better have something good to offer me, and if your going to offer me Heaven, then tell me why I should pick yours over that guy's over there who is also offering me Heaven, Nirvana, Tian, Samsara, Valhalla, or whatever.
Otherwise, wouldn't it make sense to let each person find their own spiritual path, and not kill each other, judge each other, and condemn each other, on the basis of OUR beliefs?
I have faith and beliefs, but I am under the impression that it's on me to try and find and accept my spiritual guidance. I find this to be a challenge within itself, I understand that's part of it, figuring out how best I should live, and since it's sort of a challenge to figure out how I'm supposed to live, wouldn't you think it would be incredibly arrogant, and even stupid, for me to presume to tell someone else how to live their life, or choose their spiritual path?
If you go back to the concept of free will, wouldn't your choice of a spirtitual path be on of the most crucial crossroads you could make as a sentient being?
That's another fairly typical response I get on a regular basis....I ask why I should buy your way; I get asked why I'm trying to tear down your faith.
Is it any wonder why I have no use for organized religion? No one has ever given me one iota of sense as to why I should embrace their way. It always degenerates to doing it their way or the highway.
Well......what if they're wrong? When you consider how many different religions operate on that premise, there have to be a whole lot of them that are wrong if any one of them is right.
I'm sorry, but that just seems terminally ludicrous.
So I'll just keep trying to find my way, and stop and talk to people along the way, and do my best to figure it out.
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01/02/2010 10:59:45 PM · #3683 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Just out of curiosity, how am I supposed to know you're not mistaken, and they're right?
What do have to tell me to make me believe you have the right way? |
How are you supposed to know who's right? You read the Bible and decide for yourself. Of course, if you believe in Christ then his Spirit dwells in you and helps you to discern. But, for starters you have to read the Bible and not trust what somebody else says. Heck, I don't want you to take my word for it.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
So there really isn't anything for someone who doesn't necessarily subscribe to one religion over another to really convince him that your way, or their way, is right, is there? |
If there was something that convincing then there would be no need for faith. Believing in Christ is difficult at first and it requires a lot of faith. God's solution to the problem of sin was sacrificing his son. Do you think it was easy for Jesus to die on the cross? Well, if it wasn't easy for God's own son, why would it be any easier for us? God already makes salvation pretty easy. All you have to do is set aside your pride, admit you need a savior, and then accept everything that God has already done for you. God let's us have our free will so that we can freely choose to love him. If he made it too easy for us to love him then that love wouldn't be genuine. Think about it. Who's love is more fulfilling, your spouse's love or your pet dog's love? Your spouses love is more fulfilling because your spouse has a choice to love you or not, so when he/she chooses to it feels good.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
You believe, but you don't know.
It's really going to be a matter of whichever evangelist is the smoothest and most convincing talker because none of you can truly say you know the truth. |
When you believe, you know. Knowing comes with believing.
John 8:31-32, "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
If you already knew the truth, then what good is faith? Faith is about stepping out into the unknown because you don't know the truth yet!
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's where I have the issues.......how am I supposed to be able to sift through all of that......and make a logical choice? |
You're not supposed to sift through all of that on your own. That's the cool part about God. He wants you to believe in him, and he wants to help you believe in him. All you need to do is take that step of faith, accept Christ, and then be honest with him. Tell him you want to understand and ask him to help your unbelief.
When a man came to Jesus to have his son healed Jesus told him, "Everything is possible for him who believes."
You know how the man replied? "Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"" Mark 9:23-24.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
This makes no sense. If you are not held responsible for the consequences of your actions, there will be anarchy. |
How so? You'll have to explain that one for me.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Though I understand the premise, why would there ever be any reason for us to NOT sin if we've been forgiven? |
Because once you become a believer sin looses it's appeal. Once you're a Christian you realize that the joy you get from pleasing God is far better from any joy you got out of sinning. Ever see the Disney movie Ratatouille? None of the mice wanted to eat garbage anymore after they had good, fresh food. The garbage lost it's taste in comparison to the good food. It's just like that.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And one other thing.......I refuse to accept being automatically cast as a sinner for something someone else did countless years ago before I was even born! I'm responsible for my actions, period.
Religion, and explanations of this kind make so little sense on a rational level, it's no wonder there is doubt and confusion. |
Here's the thing about that. We aren't caste off as sinners because of what Adam did 2000 years ago. What Adam did allowed sin to enter the world, but his sin doesn't make you a sinner. Everyone has fallen to temptation and chosen to sin, because it's so easy nobody can avoid it under their own power.
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23
Jeb, all I can tell you is it all makes sense and everything seems rational when you believe. At least it does to me. I can't even explain normal daily occurrences anymore outside of what I know from my faith. To me, life isn't rational or logical without God.
Message edited by author 2010-01-02 23:01:25. |
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01/02/2010 11:16:47 PM · #3684 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
How are you supposed to know who's right? You read the Bible and decide for yourself. |
Here's the thing......I have to read the Bible, and then the Koran, and whatever I'd need to to understand Buddhism, Hinduism.......and so on.
Everything you say to me comes solely from your selection to believe in the Christian faith.
I'm sorry, but I don't select anything important by one source, and there's no way that I can consciously make a choice of where to place my faith. I'm not going to wake up one day and say, "Yep! Today I believe that Jesus is the one and only true God.". I'm fairly sure that's not how it happens. Because of personal experience in my life, I believe God let me live in spite of my best efforts to the contrary, and I'm fairly certain he didn't keep me here to f*ck it all up again. Yet I haven't heard a from hi, or her, as I have a sneaking suspicion might be the case, to do anything but tend to my own issues to be a better humanoid.
In the meantime, I have to rely on what I've seen and experienced that makes me believe in God, and at no point did the Bible ever come up. Wouldn't God give me a sign if that's what he wanted me to do? How do I know who God's messenger is? Is it Billy Graham? Jimmy Swaggart? Jim & Tammy Fay? Oral Roberts? You? Jason?
Why would God send out all these messengers? And does God make people like Jimmy Swaggart his messenger just to show us how falllible, and what sinners we are? Heck, I don't need that as proof, I work in customer service!
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01/02/2010 11:18:58 PM · #3685 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
James 2:14-17 " What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
One false doctrine is that Catholicism teaches grace can be earned through works (such as participating in the sacraments), and that it is required for salvation. The Bible clearly teaches that grace is given freely by God to those who have faith in Christ, and it cannot be earned. |
Continue reading within the same version of the same Bible:
James 2:20-24 "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
Many people have reasonably interpreted those passages to mean that works are equally important— a direct contradiction of your claim that only faith matters. This is the dilemma alluded to earlier: you can find something in the Bible to support whatever claim you like, even if they're totally contradictory. |
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01/02/2010 11:25:55 PM · #3686 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
How are you supposed to know who's right? You read the Bible and decide for yourself. |
Here's the thing......I have to read the Bible, and then the Koran, and whatever I'd need to to understand Buddhism, Hinduism.......and so on.
Everything you say to me comes solely from your selection to believe in the Christian faith.
I'm sorry, but I don't select anything important by one source, and there's no way that I can consciously make a choice of where to place my faith. I'm not going to wake up one day and say, "Yep! Today I believe that Jesus is the one and only true God.". I'm fairly sure that's not how it happens. Because of personal experience in my life, I believe God let me live in spite of my best efforts to the contrary, and I'm fairly certain he didn't keep me here to f*ck it all up again. Yet I haven't heard a from hi, or her, as I have a sneaking suspicion might be the case, to do anything but tend to my own issues to be a better humanoid.
In the meantime, I have to rely on what I've seen and experienced that makes me believe in God, and at no point did the Bible ever come up. Wouldn't God give me a sign if that's what he wanted me to do? How do I know who God's messenger is? Is it Billy Graham? Jimmy Swaggart? Jim & Tammy Fay? Oral Roberts? You? Jason?
Why would God send out all these messengers? And does God make people like Jimmy Swaggart his messenger just to show us how falllible, and what sinners we are? Heck, I don't need that as proof, I work in customer service! |
God's "call" is heard or realized in different ways for each person. I would assume (and this is based on my conversion experience) that a lot of people check out Christianity because they feel a hole in their life and they haven't been able to find a way to fill it yet. I've talked to many people who just felt like there should be something more to life, and that's what led them to Christ. Becoming a Christian satisfies a lot of need and answers a lot of questions, at least that's how it's been for me. Actually, I've had needs satisfied that I didn't even know I had, and I've had a lot more questions answered than all the questions that have come up in this thread. Christianity is a hard pill to swallow if you're not already a Christian. But once you become a Christian you find that pill gets easier and easier to swallow (and the high is incredible!). |
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01/02/2010 11:30:29 PM · #3687 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
How are you supposed to know who's right? You read the Bible and decide for yourself. |
Which version of the Bible, and why not the Koran or Torah? How would someone come to the conclusion of your concept of God without reading any Bible, much less your preferred version? As you put it, do you think a baby raised in solitary confinement for 20 years would come out believing in Jesus— your claimed requirement for salvation? This isn't really a hypothetical question because it's been done, and the number of people who believe in Jesus at any age where the Bible and indoctrination are unavailable (14th century America, remote tribes, regions completely dominated by other religions, etc.) is zero. |
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01/02/2010 11:34:38 PM · #3688 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Becoming a Christian satisfies a lot of need and answers a lot of questions, at least that's how it's been for me. |
Becoming a Catholic satisfies a lot of need and answers a lot of questions, at least that's how it's been for me.
Becoming a Baptist satisfies a lot of need and answers a lot of questions, at least that's how it's been for me.
Becoming a Mormon satisfies a lot of need and answers a lot of questions, at least that's how it's been for me.
Becoming a Muslim satisfies a lot of need and answers a lot of questions, at least that's how it's been for me.
Becoming a Buddhist satisfies a lot of need and answers a lot of questions, at least that's how it's been for me.
Becoming a Hindu satisfies a lot of need and answers a lot of questions, at least that's how it's been for me.
Every religion makes the same claims and presumes you'll agree that theirs is the truth if only you learn to understand it, so you haven't really addressed Jeb's question.
Message edited by author 2010-01-02 23:35:34. |
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01/02/2010 11:37:50 PM · #3689 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Continue reading within the same version of the same Bible:
James 2:20-24 "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
Many people have reasonably interpreted those passages to mean that works are equally important— a direct contradiction of your claim that only faith matters. This is the dilemma alluded to earlier: you can find something in the Bible to support whatever claim you like, even if they're totally contradictory. |
Haha! I was waiting for someone to ask about that verse.
Notice how the text says, "and his faith was made complete by what he did". James' argument in Chapter 2 is essentially that real faith produces works, and works demonstrate that a person's faith is real. So, if there are no works, then the faith must not be real faith. James is speaking out against people who just go around saying that they believe in Christ, but they continue to sin and do whatever they want without ever doing good works. Many of the apostles warned against this. You can't just claim to have faith and then continue living in sin. That's not what real faith is.
Here's what the study notes in my Bible say:
"James again seems at first to contradict Paul's teaching that one is justified by faith alone, but the two are compatible. For James, "faith alone" means a bogus kind of faith, mere intellectual agreement without a genuine personal trust in Christ that bears fruit in one's life. James, in agreement with Paul, argues that true faith is never alone, that it always produces works." |
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01/02/2010 11:42:20 PM · #3690 |
| this thread has strayed from its topic quite a bit. Lets keep it on topic, or it will be closed. |
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01/03/2010 01:29:01 AM · #3691 |
| Whew, at last. :P Damn thing was turning into a Johnny sermon. And for the record, I had nothing to do with this admonition. |
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01/03/2010 02:33:03 AM · #3692 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
In short, Mormons are not Christian because they reject the doctrine of the Trinity and they believe that the Book of Mormon is equal in authority to the Bible. |
Mormons have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - I think that's three. I could be wrong.
They apparently, in California anyway, do not approve of gay marriage as evidenced by signficant funding in the political battle there. I think, personally, that's a waste of money that could have been used more wisely elsewhere. |
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01/03/2010 07:03:18 AM · #3693 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Christianity is a hard pill to swallow if you're not already a Christian. But once you become a Christian you find that pill gets easier and easier to swallow (and the high is incredible!). |
REALLY not looking to get high. Been there, done that, I'll stick to reality, thank you.
As Shannon pointed out, you haven't answered my question, and it seems apparent that you cannot. As Pam is pointing out, this is off topic, and this path certainly isn;'t going anywhere. You haven't said a thing that's any different than the same rhetoric I've heard for years, and you're no more convincing, to tell you the truth. I know I'll certainly keep trying to do the best I can.
And that will always include my stepping forth to support what I feel is right, and that's not just debate in a thread over what's right. I am much more effective as an advocate by doing as opposed to talking, anyway. My daughter is being raised to believe in equal rights, and I see the changes in her peers as time moves on as well.
I was most pleased to see that most all of New England supports equal rights, as evidenced by New Hampshire's decisions to legalize same sex marriages. I hope and pray for the end of discrimination ofd this, and any sort, everywhere.
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01/03/2010 11:48:42 AM · #3694 |
Originally posted by frisca:
this thread has strayed from its topic quite a bit. Lets keep it on topic, or it will be closed. |
LOLOL
This thread has 3,700 posts and it has strayed "off topic" at least half a dozen times in its lifespan. This is rather a horse-and-barn door admonition :-)
Still, I do tend to agree that a thread on "gay rights" ought not be allowed to morph into a thread on Christian apologetics, so soldier on, ma'am...
R. |
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01/03/2010 02:27:02 PM · #3695 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Every religion makes the same claims and presumes you'll agree that theirs is the truth if only you learn to understand it, so you haven't really addressed Jeb's question. |
Even if I did address the question, my answer would be insufficient to you. Obviously my opinion is biased and I will tell you what I think is right. If you want to know which one is right then you have to try them all for yourself. Think of a wine tasting event. Would you be able to decide which wine is the best one if you didn't actually taste any for yourself and you just went around asking other people which one they thought was best? That is essentially what you're asking me to do.
Professing that one religion is more right than all others is narrow, right? Well, saying that all religions are right is also narrow. Either way, you're assuming that your understanding is better than another persons understanding. One person says Ford is the best, while another person says that Ford, Chevy, and Dodge are all the same. Who is being more narrow? If you believe that all religions are right, you're essentially believing that more is better. All religions are very different and completely incompatible with one another. |
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01/03/2010 02:44:10 PM · #3696 |
| At any rate, gay rights is an issue of politics, not religion. I'm interested in getting back to politics, but I'm not going to be disrespectful and ignore questions that are presented directly to me. If you want me to stop "preaching" as Louis has implied, then just stop asking me questions about my religion. |
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01/03/2010 03:28:53 PM · #3697 |
| Most arguments I have heard against gay rights are based on the arguer's interpretation of the Bible. Personally, I am for equality with no group having preferred status based on race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. I would love to see society get to the point where each person is accepted for who he/she is as a person. |
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01/03/2010 07:14:51 PM · #3698 |
OK, here's some good stuff for conversation. I don't think it's too far off topic, but I leave it purposely academic in it's phrasing:
How do you view the courts of a society:
1) They are charged with defining moral action. (ie. What the courts determine is allowed is deemed 'moral' by definition. What the courts determine is not allowed is deemed 'immoral' by definition.)
Follow up question: If the courts produced an opinion you disagreed with, would you either change your view or understand your opinion to now be immoral?
2) They are charged with protecting moral action. (ie. The courts attempt to protect what is 'moral'. The definition of 'moral' is derived in a place other than the courts. Courts can, therefore, get it wrong and deem an immoral action to be allowed or vice-versa.)
Follow up question: Where is morality then defined?
3) They are blind to morality. (ie. Morality is not defined by the courts and they have no particular calling to defend what is 'moral', only to define what is legal.)
Follow up question: What is morality and why would a society choose to not have its legal system either define or defend it? |
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01/03/2010 07:16:30 PM · #3699 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
OK, here's some good stuff for conversation. I don't think it's too far off topic, but I leave it purposely academic in it's phrasing:
How do you view the courts of a society:
1) They are charged with defining moral action. (ie. What the courts determine is allowed is deemed 'moral' by definition. What the courts determine is not allowed is deemed 'immoral' by definition.)
Follow up question: If the courts produced an opinion you disagreed with, would you either change your view or understand your opinion to now be immoral?
2) They are charged with protecting moral action. (ie. The courts attempt to protect what is 'moral'. The definition of 'moral' is derived in a place other than the courts. Courts can, therefore, get it wrong and deem an immoral action to be allowed or vice-versa.)
Follow up question: Where is morality then defined?
3) They are blind to morality. (ie. Morality is not defined by the courts and they have no particular calling to defend what is 'moral', only to define what is legal.)
Follow up question: What is morality and why would a society choose to not have its legal system either define or defend it? |
Legal and moral have been differnt for a long time.
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01/03/2010 07:22:41 PM · #3700 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
OK, here's some good stuff for conversation. I don't think it's too far off topic, but I leave it purposely academic in it's phrasing:
How do you view the courts of a society:
1) They are charged with defining moral action. (ie. What the courts determine is allowed is deemed 'moral' by definition. What the courts determine is not allowed is deemed 'immoral' by definition.)
Follow up question: If the courts produced an opinion you disagreed with, would you either change your view or understand your opinion to now be immoral?
2) They are charged with protecting moral action. (ie. The courts attempt to protect what is 'moral'. The definition of 'moral' is derived in a place other than the courts. Courts can, therefore, get it wrong and deem an immoral action to be allowed or vice-versa.)
Follow up question: Where is morality then defined?
3) They are blind to morality. (ie. Morality is not defined by the courts and they have no particular calling to defend what is 'moral', only to define what is legal.)
Follow up question: What is morality and why would a society choose to not have its legal system either define or defend it? |
Legal and moral have been differnt for a long time. |
Well come on, play the game and answer the question then (along with the follow-up). I take it you disagree with 1), but then do you agree with 2) or 3)? |
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