Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

01/02/2010 04:56:56 PM · #3651

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Christianity teaches that a person does "good works" not as a requirement, but as a natural expression of the love and grace that person experiences through faith in Christ. Christianity teaches that good works should be the result of being saved, and those that use good works in an attempt to achieve their own salvation will not be saved. Salvation comes through Christ's work for us, not through our own work.

Some of us believe that there doesn't have to be a reason for doing good works other than for the sake of doing them to help one another.

What boggles my mind is that it is incomprehensible to those of you who think that there has to be motivation. For many of us, that simply isn't the case.

01/02/2010 05:04:27 PM · #3652

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
True. It floors me that this (i.e. religion does good) is even brought up as some kind of defense for religion while at the same time trying to justify discrimination, which is the opposite of doing good.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The way I interpret above is, "How can we ever talk about religion being good when it's so bad?"

Oh sure leave out the context. We're talking about gay marriage and the discrimination of homosexuals. Bringing up things such as charity is irrelevent to the charge at hand (i.e. discrimination). THAT is how you should have read it.

01/02/2010 05:07:39 PM · #3653

Originally posted by yanko:

True. It floors me that this (i.e. religion does good) is even brought up as some kind of defense for religion while at the same time trying to justify discrimination, which is the opposite of doing good.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The way I interpret above is, "How can we ever talk about religion being good when it's so bad?" Obviously there are two sides to the coin.

Religion, and religious groups do a lot of good, so stipulated, but that doesn't justify the little quirks, and the one that we're concerned with here is where you try and validate the discrimination by saying that the Bible backs up what you're doing or by trying to downplay the bad by saying, "Yeah, but look at all the good we do."..

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Anyway, one difference between religion and atheism is that religion has the capability of being transformative and inspirational (for good or bad, I suppose) while atheism, not being any sort of creed cannot.

Okay.....what's your point? Nobody's claiming that atheism has the power to be transformative and inspiational.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

01/02/2010 05:10:22 PM · #3654

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
True. It floors me that this (i.e. religion does good) is even brought up as some kind of defense for religion while at the same time trying to justify discrimination, which is the opposite of doing good.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The way I interpret above is, "How can we ever talk about religion being good when it's so bad?"

Oh sure leave out the context. We're talking about gay marriage and the discrimination of homosexuals. Bringing up things such as charity is irrelevent to the charge at hand (i.e. discrimination). THAT is how you should have read it.

Oh, well, this thread leads far and wide. I doubt anybody was making the argument that since X then we can get away with Y. I doubt anybody would feel that argument was necessary.

01/02/2010 05:24:24 PM · #3655

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

In my opinion it's the individual who has the capability of being transformative and inspirational irrespective of religion and atheism. It's the individual or groups of individuals who gives birth to the ideals in which we wrap ourselves in.

01/02/2010 05:28:33 PM · #3656

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
True. It floors me that this (i.e. religion does good) is even brought up as some kind of defense for religion while at the same time trying to justify discrimination, which is the opposite of doing good.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The way I interpret above is, "How can we ever talk about religion being good when it's so bad?"

Oh sure leave out the context. We're talking about gay marriage and the discrimination of homosexuals. Bringing up things such as charity is irrelevent to the charge at hand (i.e. discrimination). THAT is how you should have read it.

Oh, well, this thread leads far and wide. I doubt anybody was making the argument that since X then we can get away with Y. I doubt anybody would feel that argument was necessary.

Then why are you complaining about not being able to talk about the good that religion does? If it's brought up in the context of this thread how can it not be assumed it's done so as a possible defense? Have you forgotten which thread you're posting to?

Message edited by author 2010-01-02 17:31:10.

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

01/02/2010 05:32:17 PM · #3657

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The way I interpret above is, "How can we ever talk about religion being good when it's so bad?" Obviously there are two sides to the coin.

Anyway, one difference between religion and atheism is that religion has the capability of being transformative and inspirational (for good or bad, I suppose) while atheism, not being any sort of creed cannot.

You're hilarious. You take offense when someone points out evils carried out in the name of religion without acknowledging the good, yet have no qualms equating atheism with evil regimes (an unrelated charge) and suggest that people are incapable of good if they don't believe in a god (your 'absolute moral compass' opinion) without acknowledging acts of kindness that aren't done in the name of religion. YOU ARE DOING THE VERY THING YOU PROTEST!

johnnyphoto

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

01/02/2010 05:36:00 PM · #3658

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Ugh... you don't get it! That's at least the third time you've said that exact same thing! Whether you like it or not, all action is motivated. This is straight from the dictionary...
Motive: something (as a need or desire) that causes a person to act
Jeb, when you do something good or decent, there is a motivation behind it. Even if it's as simple as wanting to help your fellow man out of the goodness of your heart. There's always a reason behind every action, even for you Jeb. It just happens that for Christians that reason is, Christ loved us so we love others as he loved us.

Message edited by author 2010-01-02 17:36:54.

johnnyphoto

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

01/02/2010 05:46:32 PM · #3659

Let me say it another way. It's not that Christians need a reason to do something nice, its just that we have another really good reason to do something nice.

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

01/02/2010 05:47:55 PM · #3660

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Some of us believe that there doesn't have to be a reason for doing good works other than for the sake of doing them to help one another.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Ugh... you don't get it! ...when you do something good or decent, there is a motivation behind it. Even if it's as simple as wanting to help your fellow man out of the goodness of your heart.

That's exactly what he's sayingâ�� you can help people simply out of the goodness of your heart. No god or list of rules is necessary. If a stranger pulled you from a burning car, would you automatically assume they must be Christian (or must not be atheist)?

Louis

Nikon D800

01/02/2010 05:48:30 PM · #3661

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Actually what probably annoys me more about Richard's post is it's back to the relative-moral atheist (although Richard is agnostic, isn't he?) suddenly talking about things like there is a "line in the sand" that ought not to be crossed and the line represents more than just his opinion.

There is a line in the sand, if you will? Want to discriminate in such a way that a class of individuals are denied the civic rights of another class of individuals? There's your line.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...when people hear that I am against gay marriage they think I am wrong in a very real sense that goes beyond their personal experience and opinion.

That's because your position is indefensible. The only conceivable way for you to arrive at the conclusion that same-sex marriage is wrong is due to some pre-existing dogmatic position inherent in your religion. The only way for you to argue in favour of your position is to argue in favour of the articles of your faith.

01/02/2010 05:49:30 PM · #3662

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

It's not that Christians need a reason to do something nice...

Non-Christians don't need a reason either. Welcome to humanity.

Message edited by author 2010-01-02 17:50:45.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

01/02/2010 05:51:29 PM · #3663

Kind of a related question - since the brand of Christianity being discussed requires ONLY the believer believe - ie nothing the person does can earn them their way into heaven - they simply must accept Christ as their savior - then is it OK to not do anything? Is it OK to do wrong things (possibly evil things) as long as one still accepts Christ as their savior? After all, man is flawed and has sinned - why not just keep sinning away as long as you believe? I think this is where it kinda falls apart for me with respect to the comparison that "atheists have no reason to be good, no moral compass". Seems to me Christians, as defined in some instances, have the true free ticket - believe and everything will be forgiven.

And I'm still not understanding why Catholics and Mormons aren't Christian, but I don't suppose that's on today's menu.

Louis

Nikon D800

01/02/2010 06:01:34 PM · #3664

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Not so sure. The vast majority of atheists started out as non-atheists. Speaking personally, the transformative power of shedding supernatural belief is staggering, let me tell you. Reaches into every facet of your life. Makes life infinitely better.

01/02/2010 06:08:20 PM · #3665

Originally posted by Melethia:

I asked this question some time ago in another thread. My example was who gets into heaven, Jeffrey Dahmer who at the end of his life accepts Christ as his lord and savior or me who doesn't believe? Guess what the answer was. Hint it wasn't me.

Message edited by author 2010-01-02 18:09:58.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

01/02/2010 06:14:20 PM · #3666

But does Dahmer have to quit killing? Can he continue as long as he believes that Christ died for his sins and that he (Dahmer) as a mortal man can only be *expected* to sin so it's OK if he kills a few more? Or is the deal only good if he behaves himself from the point of acceptance on?

01/02/2010 06:20:12 PM · #3667

Originally posted by Melethia:

The way it was explained to me your actions toward your fellow man doesnt matter in the least as far as getting into heaven.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

01/02/2010 06:22:07 PM · #3668

Originally posted by Melethia:

The party line in these threads was that deeds don't matter, only the belief, so presumably he can kill away. Disputing that would be acknowledging that good works matter, so if you get any response at all, it'll be entertaining.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

01/02/2010 07:18:02 PM · #3669

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I just find it interesting. I think people feel there are absolute moral lines we should not cross and the proof of the pudding is in how they talk (like Richard's post). We can talk relativism all we want and that there is no such thing as "basic human rights", but nobody acts that way and when people hear that I am against gay marriage they think I am wrong in a very real sense that goes beyond their personal experience and opinion.

Moral relativism doesn't mean an absence of morality or moral standards. Maybe that's what's confusing you.

01/02/2010 07:27:11 PM · #3670

Originally posted by Melethia:

believe and everything will be forgiven.

Every time I allude to that, I get jumped on....it's that ultimate carrot thing I've mentioned.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS II USM Lens

01/02/2010 07:31:22 PM · #3671

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

when people hear that I am against gay marriage they think I am wrong in a very real sense that goes beyond their personal experience and opinion.

Right. I don't need to be someone you discriminate against, and my opinion doesn't matter. That'd be that discrimination thing based on belief & faith, instead of having one shred of good reason for doing so that makes it wrong.

Elaine

Canon EOS R5

01/02/2010 08:40:30 PM · #3672

One of the many things I have been wondering for a while--if God is all powerful and all knowing, why did He need Jesus to die for our sins? Why not just forgive everyone?

johnnyphoto

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

01/02/2010 08:51:28 PM · #3673

Originally posted by Melethia:

Is it okay not to do anything? No, and Paul addressed this issue in Romans.

Romans 6:1-2 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"
Romans 6:15 "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!"

James also reflected on this question.

James 2:14-17 " What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. "

In short, Mormons are not Christian because they reject the doctrine of the Trinity and they believe that the Book of Mormon is equal in authority to the Bible. Catholics are technically Christian, but they're doctrines are screwed up too. One false doctrine is that Catholicism teaches grace can be earned through works (such as participating in the sacraments), and that it is required for salvation. The Bible clearly teaches that grace is given freely by God to those who have faith in Christ, and it cannot be earned.

scarbrd

Leica M10

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

01/02/2010 09:05:21 PM · #3674

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

\ One false doctrine is that Catholicism teaches grace can be earned through works (such as participating in the sacraments), and that it is required for salvation. The Bible clearly teaches that grace is given freely by God to those who have faith in Christ, and it cannot be earned.

And yet many places in the bible say that baptism (a sacrament) IS required for salvation, Mark 16:15-18 just to name one.

I highly recommend you shy away from labeling Catholics as "false" Christians. Stick to what you know, and obviously you know precious little about Catholicism.