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12/15/2009 07:50:44 PM · #26 |
I have been stopped in London under anti terrorism laws. I have been confronted aggressively by police for taking photos. It is not very pleasant and can easily escalate.
Until it happens to you, it is very hard to understand how being wrongfully treated can be so objectionable - but it is.
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12/15/2009 09:07:26 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by soup:
i grew up near a nuclear power plant when no one really looked at anything. we played volley ball on their picnic area ( our dogs would come too, off leash. we hung out on the back deck of the info center drinking sodas and peeing in the AC unit.
now that plant has been shut down. the reactor material is in a big crate in the woods nearby, and fighter jets patrol the skies above it 24/7.
you think i could just mosey on down and shoot a few shots of the volley court i used to play on ? |
Dude.....a week and a half ago.....
This was with my 12-24.....how freakin' far away do you think I might have been?.....8>)
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12/15/2009 09:19:13 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think it's possible Jeb that the police in Boiling Springs, PA are a little lower key than those of some other parts of the country? People's experience may vary based on how large a city they live in and how much it is perceived as a terrorist target. |
There are NO police in Boiling Springs at all.....it's simply not big enough.
However, there is the state capitol, a nuclear power plant, a coal/hydro plant, an international airport, a train station, the U.S.Army War College, a Naval supply depot, an Army supply depot, an armed forces salvage and decommissioning center, an Army base, and quite a few manufacturing facilities with various levels of serious security. The Capitol Complex has its own police force, and there is also a state police training facility, ALL of which is within a thirty minute drive of my house and all are in areas that I frequent.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I don't disagree with anything you say, I just think you don't quite sense the frustration people feel when they consider themselves to be the victim of police or security guards with chips on their shoulder. |
You're absolutely right.
So I've either been dumb lucky, or I manage to conduct myself with such decorum that people do not get any sense of antagonism from me whatsoever.
I really wasn't trying to take anything away from anyone's experience. All I'm trying to impart is that there is at least one guy out here who is a photographer who takes his big, clunky DSLR with its mongo lens and hood with him everywhere he goes, often times into places where he's NOT supposed to go, and who has a good handle on being able to walk away from everything he's encountered to date with virtually no hassle.
Take it for what it's worth. I'm sure y'all have much more to contend with than anything I'll encounter......I'm just fine with that.....I like it peaceful.
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12/16/2009 07:14:08 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
The sad truth about demonstrations is that the real cause of the problems rest with certain groups that infiltrate demonstrations and proceed to cause mayhem and destroy public and private properties, and innocent demonstrators get caught up in the ensuing melee.
Ray |
Yup, and sometimes the infiltrators, or agent provocateurs, if you wish, are the very people you wouldn't expect. |
I am quite familiar with that activity you speak of and surely you can understand the difference between an unbelievably stupid attempt at infiltration, and the primary objectives of a group of anarchist bent on creating havoc and initiating violence and the destruction of public and private property.
Ray |
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12/16/2009 07:18:58 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think it's possible Jeb that the police in Boiling Springs, PA are a little lower key than those of some other parts of the country? People's experience may vary based on how large a city they live in and how much it is perceived as a terrorist target.
I don't disagree with anything you say, I just think you don't quite sense the frustration people feel when they consider themselves to be the victim of police or security guards with chips on their shoulder. |
Why do you assume that the police or security guards have a chip on their shoulders. I have had some less than pleasant interactions with different segments of our society, (including doctors) and did not instantly jump to the conclusion that they had a "chip" on their shoulder.
It is quite easy to make assumptions of others when we know little if anything as to the root cause of their behaviour. I do know this however, I seriously doubt I would even consider a career in law enforcement today... damned if you do and damned if you don't.
On a totally different tangent, I keep hearing people harping about their rights, but not once in has anyone made mention of their obligations... they do run in pairs you know. I am certainly not advocating that we overlook the transgressions of people in authority, but by the same token, we might take a page from  Jeband try to be a tad more pro-active in our interactions with authority figures.
Ray
Message edited by author 2009-12-16 07:23:09. |
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12/16/2009 07:29:39 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think it's possible Jeb that the police in Boiling Springs, PA are a little lower key than those of some other parts of the country? People's experience may vary based on how large a city they live in and how much it is perceived as a terrorist target.
I don't disagree with anything you say, I just think you don't quite sense the frustration people feel when they consider themselves to be the victim of police or security guards with chips on their shoulder. |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Why do you assume that the police or security guards have a chip on their shoulders. I have had some less than pleasant interactions with different segments of our society, (including doctors) and did not instantly jump to the conclusion that they had a "chip" on their shoulder.
It is quite easy to make assumptions of others when we know little if anything as to the root cause of their behaviour. I do know this however, I seriously doubt I would even consider a career in law enforcement today... damned if you do and damned if you don't.
On a totally different tangent, I keep hearing people harping about their rights, but not once in has anyone made mention of their obligations... they do run in pairs you know. I am certainly not advocating that we overlook the transgressions of people in authority, but by the same token, we might take a page from Jeband try to be a tad more pro-active in our interactions with authority figures.
Ray |
Two things I didn't think to mention previously. One, I have found over the years that you generally have a tendency to be treated in kind. I cannot even begin to tell you how many tickets I've avoided simply by NOT giving the officer who stopped me a bag of sh*t. I've found that in over 35 years of exposure to police as an adult that I've pretty much always been treated fairly and respectfully.
The second point is something that amuses me.....I'm assuming your reference to my small town was something of a comment of naiveté thing as it pertains to police in larger towns and cities. That isn't the case......I've had encounters with both, and state police as well. I have found generally that small town cops have much more of an attitude than city cops.
For the most part, I have the utmost respect for the police. It's a thankless, dangerous job, and they couldn't pay me enough to do it. Not like I have the temperament for it, either.
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12/16/2009 07:29:57 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think it's possible Jeb that the police in Boiling Springs, PA are a little lower key than those of some other parts of the country? People's experience may vary based on how large a city they live in and how much it is perceived as a terrorist target.
I don't disagree with anything you say, I just think you don't quite sense the frustration people feel when they consider themselves to be the victim of police or security guards with chips on their shoulder. |
Why do you assume that the police or security guards have a chip on their shoulders. I have had some less than pleasant interactions with different segments of our society, (including doctors) and did not instantly jump to the conclusion that they had a "chip" on their shoulder.
It is quite easy to make assumptions of others when we know little if anything as to the root cause of their behaviour. I do know this however, I seriously doubt I would even consider a career in law enforcement today... damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Ray |
I think if you read Dr Achoo's post again carefully, Ray, you'll find that he wasn't saying that 'all' police or security guards have chips of their shoulder just that some people who have posted in these threads have detailed their experiences with police or security guards with chips on their shoulders. Taking peoples quotes out of context and reducing them to blanket statements doesn't help you get your message across really. Your doctor analogy is interesting though as, in the UK at least, when people in the medical profession step outside of the law, sometimes resulting in death, they are scrutinised and legal attempts made to hold them responsible. With the police it is often much harder as they sometimes tend to protect themselves with lies and cover-ups.
Message edited by author 2009-12-16 07:40:53. |
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12/16/2009 07:40:27 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
On a totally different tangent, I keep hearing people harping about their rights, but not once in has anyone made mention of their obligations... they do run in pairs you know. I am certainly not advocating that we overlook the transgressions of people in authority, but by the same token, we might take a page from Jeband try to be a tad more pro-active in our interactions with authority figures.
Ray |
Thats quite right and i tend to always be polite with the police in my encounters, as i try to do with all people. I think people should respect and be courteous to one another as human beings. When i come across some police abusing their rights and abusing people, though, it does make me angry. I lived in Brixton a few years ago and was with a friend one night when he was clipped around the head by a policeman and called 'a fucking paki'. It's hard to witness instances like that and still think how wonderful the police are. But, like i said before, i have met some really nice police officers as well. |
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12/16/2009 07:41:11 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think it's possible Jeb that the police in Boiling Springs, PA are a little lower key than those of some other parts of the country? People's experience may vary based on how large a city they live in and how much it is perceived as a terrorist target.
I don't disagree with anything you say, I just think you don't quite sense the frustration people feel when they consider themselves to be the victim of police or security guards with chips on their shoulder. |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Why do you assume that the police or security guards have a chip on their shoulders. I have had some less than pleasant interactions with different segments of our society, (including doctors) and did not instantly jump to the conclusion that they had a "chip" on their shoulder.
It is quite easy to make assumptions of others when we know little if anything as to the root cause of their behaviour. I do know this however, I seriously doubt I would even consider a career in law enforcement today... damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Ray |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I think if you read Dr Achoo's post again carefully, Ray, you'll find that he wasn't saying that 'all' police or security guards have chips of their shoulder just that some people who have posted in these threads have detailed their experiences with police or security guards with chips on their shoulder. Taking peoples quotes out of context and reducing them to blanket statements doesn't help you get your message across really. Your doctor analogy is interesting though as, in the UK at least, when people in the medical profession step outside of the law, sometimes resulting in death, they are scrutinised and legal attempts made to hold them responsible. With the police it is often much harder as they sometimes tend to protect themselves with lies and cover-ups. |
I think blanket statements and assumptions have been made throughout the thread.
It's based on personal experience. I find most police to be sterling folks, and my experiences have pretty much all been positive......well, as positive as being arrested a couple times can be. That's something else, too. How many people in this conversation have actually been arrested, charged, and spent even a night in jail?
I have.....you guys?
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12/16/2009 07:53:26 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I think blanket statements and assumptions have been made throughout the thread. |
Perhaps, i've tried to avoid them though and not tar all the police with the same brush. My points are only about police officers who step outside of, or stretch, the law to suit themselves. Thats always been my point which is why any comments along the line of 'they are only doing a hard job' or 'it's only fair after 911' are nonsensical i feel.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's based on personal experience. I find most police to be sterling folks, and my experiences have pretty much all been positive......well, as positive as being arrested a couple times can be. That's something else, too. How many people in this conversation have actually been arrested, charged, and spent even a night in jail?
I have.....you guys? |
Yea, i tend to try and keep my comments and views based on experience as well. Some good, some bad. The amount of bad experiences is what worries me. I've had a couple of nights in a police cell but i'd say those couple of times i probably deserved it! And i have to say that during those experiences the police were actually really nice. All the problems i've experienced have been with police officers on the street being abusive and aggressive and i have to say that in all those times i can think of it was needless bullying. |
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12/16/2009 07:59:11 AM · #36 |
| I should also point out that i've never been stopped from taking photographs by the police. At, least not in this country. When i lived in Egypt i was stopped plenty of times but that is fair enough as it's not my country so i wouldn't presume to complain. Anyway, usually a small bribe to the police there sorted things out! I now live in Cardiff, Wales and haven't had any problems. Perhaps if i still lived in London i would have. |
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12/16/2009 11:15:37 AM · #37 |
Clive had it right. I think the vast majority of police are just trying to do their difficult job the best they can. But some have "chips" and those are the ones that cause trouble. That's no insult to the profession. There are good and bad members of any community. Maybe I should have used some other phrase. It could be they are lazy instead. It's much easier to try to cow your target into doing something with a show of aggression versus taking the time to have a conversation.
Anyway, I was just pointing out that some of us have only good experiences with police and others do not. Personally I think most of my interactions have been quite reasonable. The PPG incident was civil as well as the Federal Courthouse incident. Every time I shot pictures at the Portland airport I called ahead to just give a heads up and I think the police there appreciated it.
I was taking Spaz's story at face value that he was doing nothing wrong and the policeman was having no part in dialogue. That is wrong and should not be tolerated.
Message edited by author 2009-12-16 11:16:14. |
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12/16/2009 01:22:28 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I should also point out that i've never been stopped from taking photographs by the police. At, least not in this country. When i lived in Egypt i was stopped plenty of times but that is fair enough as it's not my country so i wouldn't presume to complain. Anyway, usually a small bribe to the police there sorted things out! I now live in Cardiff, Wales and haven't had any problems. Perhaps if i still lived in London i would have. |
I've been stopped 3 times in the past 18 months. All 3 situations ended in a calm and mature way and I kept every shot I took. I didn't claim I had the right to photograph whatever I wanted and didn't get arrogant with the cops or security personnel. As soon as they saw I wasn't hostile and wanted to sincerely accommodate their enquiries they let me do as I wanted and one even offered me a guided tour of the port I was photographing.
In my experiences I've found that if you smile and greet them with respect, the rest is easy as cake. I'm also not the type to photograph a high priority federal building without asking first. That in itself avoids a multitude of potential problems.
I would never even dare to photograph a police officer who is asking me questions and essentially doing his job. If he hit me or used unnecessary force then I would do anything to record the moment, during and after. |
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12/16/2009 02:04:41 PM · #39 |
I only posted my story because it's an example of the police abusing their authority in an inappropriate manner. I never meant to imply that all police were like that and I don't think I did.
To be fair, let me relate another, more positive story about interacting with the police as a photographer. (This was well before the advent of digital photography and 9/11.) I was photographing the crowd at a surf contest in CA. I was just walking around taking some photos of interesting people and events. I had put my lenses and other gear in a backpack that I had lined with a beach towel. There had been several incidents with drunk people getting a little too rowdy, soo... I was walking down the pier, when two police officers asked me what I was doing, I told them, they asked me what I had in my bag, they asked to take a look, I told them to go ahead. They felt on of my lenses, wrapped in a towel and obviously thought it was a bottle of liquor or something, when they unwrapped it and saw what it was, we all chuckled. Anyway, I asked them if I could photograph them and they posed for me.
Later, the drunks got really rowdy (burning lifeguard stations, trash cans, police cars, etc) and the police were in their riot gear and the helicopters were flying low over the beach, spraying sand on the unruly crowd. Unfortunately, I was in the middle of this, stuck between the crowd and the police in their riot gear when it all started going bad and was just trying to get away. I got knocked down a few times, but eventually, in the chaos, I ran into one of the same cops that I had photographed earlier and he helped me get to safety, behind the police, rather than in the middle of the tear gas and the bottle and rock throwing. |
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12/16/2009 02:17:35 PM · #40 |
| Thats a nice story Dan. There are loads of great officers about and it is a extremely hard job of course. One of my funniest encounters with the police was a few years ago. I'd witnessed a mugging, a lady had her handbag snatched and was pushed to the ground before the mugger jumped in a car and sped off. Myself and my girlfriend managed to memorise the license plate between us and waited with the woman until the police arrived. When they did, one officer took me to one side to take my statement. As he was writing down what i saw in his notebook he turned the page to be confronted by a drawing of a penis. Seeing that i saw it he quickly turned another page to another penis. Basically, the rest of his book was full of penis drawings. He went very red and muttered something about the 'Lads at the station'. |
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12/16/2009 03:05:21 PM · #41 |
The UK situation may be a little different situation but in general all Police officers hate having their authority questioned so starting the conversation with "I what know my rights are" will get them going every time. Just starting the conversation asking what is and is not allowed will at least get the conversation started on the right foot and can lead to a better a more open discussion about what your true rights are.
Message edited by author 2009-12-16 15:05:47. |
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12/16/2009 03:13:22 PM · #42 |
I've been stopped by police once and once only when I was out with my camera in Manchester Piccadilly- the busiest and biggest train station outside of London.
I was resting my camera on one of the banisters/guardrail things for a long exposure. I was hunched over trying to look through the viewfinder, and was bundled up since it was winter.
Someone tapped me on the shoulder and said "excuse me sir, but would you mind telling me what you are doing?". I turned around and it was 2 uniformed cops. I said I was trying to take a picture but its a pain in the ass since I need to keep the camera steady for 8 seconds due to the light not being fantastic and I want to get everything in focus so need to close the aperture quite a bit. The cop looked at my camera, looked beyond it at the scene I was photographing and said "yeah, i guess you're right. Good luck!" then they both turned and walked off.
This was inside a train station- something I would consider to be 'high-risk' but hey, i wasn't furtive, didn't skit around the subject and told him outright what I was doing and why. If he had told me to move then I would have, I understand they're trying to do their job and luckily, the cop thought the same of me. |
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12/16/2009 03:18:18 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Thats a nice story Dan. There are loads of great officers about and it is a extremely hard job of course. One of my funniest encounters with the police was a few years ago. I'd witnessed a mugging, a lady had her handbag snatched and was pushed to the ground before the mugger jumped in a car and sped off. Myself and my girlfriend managed to memorise the license plate between us and waited with the woman until the police arrived. When they did, one officer took me to one side to take my statement. As he was writing down what i saw in his notebook he turned the page to be confronted by a drawing of a penis. Seeing that i saw it he quickly turned another page to another penis. Basically, the rest of his book was full of penis drawings. He went very red and muttered something about the 'Lads at the station'. |
ROFL. That's a good one. |
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12/16/2009 03:37:41 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Tez:
I've been stopped by police once and once only when I was out with my camera in Manchester Piccadilly- the busiest and biggest train station outside of London.
I was resting my camera on one of the banisters/guardrail things for a long exposure. I was hunched over trying to look through the viewfinder, and was bundled up since it was winter.
Someone tapped me on the shoulder and said "excuse me sir, but would you mind telling me what you are doing?". I turned around and it was 2 uniformed cops. I said I was trying to take a picture but its a pain in the ass since I need to keep the camera steady for 8 seconds due to the light not being fantastic and I want to get everything in focus so need to close the aperture quite a bit. The cop looked at my camera, looked beyond it at the scene I was photographing and said "yeah, i guess you're right. Good luck!" then they both turned and walked off.
This was inside a train station- something I would consider to be 'high-risk' but hey, i wasn't furtive, didn't skit around the subject and told him outright what I was doing and why. If he had told me to move then I would have, I understand they're trying to do their job and luckily, the cop thought the same of me. |
This goes to show that it is all about attitude when confronted by either a police officer or a security guard. I have to admit that you will always get that 'jobsworth' who won't listen to you and only wants to spout and adhere to the rules, down to the last full stop. I respect they have a job to do and just as I don't want them wasting my time, it is only fair and reasonable not to waste theirs. Politeness and a sense of humour goes a long way to easing any tensions in such situations. Many shopping malls do not allow photography and are private property, however, I have asked the centre manager on more than one occasion if I could take a few photos of the architecture or Xmas decorations and usually explain that the photos are for an internet photography site where we have challenge topics etc...bet you can't guess which site? Every time I have been allowed to carry on:) If I see a security guard, I tell him I have permission from the manager and that is usually that.
At the London GTG last year, I was approached by two 'plastic policemen' the community support officers who asked what 'WE', the whole group were doing. who we were and what the DPC badges were? I explained as usual and they followed us about for quite a while, but as we walked along Whitehall, I turned and joked about them following us and if they were going to follow us around all day, they laughed and said, yes! Then added they were going back to the Police Station for a cuppa. No bad attitudes, no demanding details, just polite questions and equally polite answers.
Now I was a Police Officer in the 70s/80s and learnt pretty soon that heavy handed actions brought heavy handed reactions. I can understand the unease some officers feel when called to a situation where someone has been questioned by a security guard and it has turned confrontational. However, most of these reports have been situated in major cities and London is one of the worse effected. The Met police have and always have had a bad reputation for acting beyond the call of duty and being arrest happy, some are animals and I have witnessed them at work and as a serving Police Officer at the time, was disgusted by their behaviour and ashamed to be lumped in with them. Strangely enough, we were in London a few weeks ago and I was taking photos of the policemen guarding Downing Street and they didn't take a bit of notice. The police guarding Windsor Castle are the same, no reaction even when photographing the machine gun armed officers and the bomb squad dog handlers.
Sorry for the rambling, but I feel some photogs have a bad attitude when confronted for details etc. It doesn't hurt anyone to co-operate within reason. |
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12/16/2009 03:41:57 PM · #45 |
I totally agree- some people do seem to think that a camera elevates them above the law, or at least that they shouldn't be mindful of the current political climate.
I just tell myself that cops are just people with a very stressful job and occasionally take it out on the world. My best friend is a cop so I have a little insight into what he gets faced with on a daily basis, and it isn't flowers and sunshine. I've found that if you're civil to a cop, they're generally civil back. Granted, I am yet to experience the cops in the USA and how they perceive people with cameras. |
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12/16/2009 05:03:52 PM · #46 |
So this photographer has contact with a police officer who sees the photog with a camera:
Cop: Get any good shots?
Photog: Eh, not really. How's your night going?
Cop: Eh, kinda slow.
Photog and Cop have a little bit of small talk.
Photog: Say, I belong to this internet photography site. They have these weekly contest with different themes. This weeks contest is shooting into a light source. (Photog explains his idea for a picture.) Any chance I can do that since you're here?
Cop: Eh, I don't see a problem with that.
Photog: Say, you mind if I get you in front of the car as part of the picture?
Cop: Well, I really don't like having my picture taken.
Photog: I understand. (Photog explains how the lighting would keep the cop in silhouette). So, your face won't be exposed at all...
Cop: Well, alright.
Photog takes pics of his concept and shows the Cop.
Cop: Oh, that's pretty cool.
Photog had a positive interaction with the Cop and here's the result:
As in all walks of life, I find when you treat people decently, they treat you decently in return.
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12/16/2009 05:09:26 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by The_Tourist:
As in all walks of life, I find when you treat people decently, they treat you decently in return. |
The tip off was the cop's first question was "Get any good shots?" I think it's pretty safe to think the conversation is going to go well as long as you aren't an ass. Do you think the conversation would have proceeded similarly if the first statement was, "Put that away and leave."?
Nice picture though. :) |
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12/16/2009 05:55:11 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by The_Tourist:
Photog takes pics of his concept and shows the Cop.
Cop: Oh, that's pretty cool.
Photog had a positive interaction with the Cop and here's the result:
As in all walks of life, I find when you treat people decently, they treat you decently in return. |
So......
Did you make sure you got him a print? |
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12/16/2009 06:34:37 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I am quite familiar with that activity you speak of and surely you can understand the difference between an unbelievably stupid attempt at infiltration, and the primary objectives of a group of anarchist bent on creating havoc and initiating violence and the destruction of public and private property.
Ray |
Sure Ray, if all police action was logical and well thought out. But even you called this a stupid attempt. Stupidity breeds more stupidity and that large rock one of them was carrying could have ended up being thrown at a person and causing injury or death. The difference narrows quite a bit when the police infiltrators arm themselves. |
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12/16/2009 07:16:46 PM · #50 |
Ok. I worked as a computer consultant for 10 years and at a help desk for a number of years before that. I must admit, when I worked at the help desk, I went on the assumption that everyone who called was an idiot until they proved themselves. There is a reason for this: one of my very first phone calls was from someone who's screen was dark. I asked her if she had tried adjusting her contrast/brightness. She said yes. I then spent 10 minutes having her try different things. After I had gone through everything I could, I told her to try the brightness/contrast one more time. She then asked me where it was. 98% of the people I dealt with were computer idiots. 2% knew what they were doing and had serious problems.
That was a help desk. That was a safe job.
Policemen cannot afford to assume that everyone is good, nice, innocent people. They have to approach each situation at full alert. Think about it, when they're on patrol in a car, the only people they come into contact with are the ones who have done something wrong. If they're on foot patrol, at least that's a little better. But it is an extremely stressful job, dealing with a lot of idiots. Unfortunately, it's probably easy to assume that the majority are going to be idiots. Does that excuse the behavior? No. But tell me, are you always happy, bright, cheerful, sympathetic, courteous at your job each and every day? And you're probably not taking chances with your life at that job. Cut them some slack. I wouldn't have the guts to do the job--would you? |
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