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10/08/2009 02:52:08 PM · #1 |
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Summary:
It's cold (27 degrees to -5 degrees) and snowing, car gets stuck in the snow. Guy lets the 13 and 11 year old walk the 10 miles to Mom's house. 11 year old dies, 13 year old is found huddled in a bathroom.
Manslaughter or a bad decision? I would not want to be on the jury.
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10/08/2009 03:00:47 PM · #2 |
what an idiot, "yea kids go walk who knows how many miles in the cold while I stay with the warm car, ya know you guys are really getting old. Watch out for the wild bears and sliding cars on the highway.. oh yea, and if i get my car freed i'll just assume you could walk the quick 10 miles to your mothers"
manslaughter and a f***ing bad decision
Message edited by author 2009-10-08 15:01:26. |
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10/08/2009 03:02:01 PM · #3 |
| The temperature ranges seem a little extreme, converted to C its saying -3C to -20C. Either way there is NO way I would let mine or anyone else's kids hike ALONE that far in any weather. IMO he never should have let them go, I do feel for the man but was a very bad judgment call on his part... |
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10/08/2009 03:03:49 PM · #4 |
That is terribly unfortunate - there will be no winners here...
I can't imagine the though process that would allow someone to send their children on a ten mile walk in pajamas through a snow storm. Moronic. Manslaughter. |
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10/08/2009 03:07:13 PM · #5 |
There is no telling what let him decide to do that
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10/08/2009 03:26:37 PM · #6 |
Growing up in wisconsin, i walked miles doing a paper route and walked over a mile to school at that age, in colder temps. I remember using a sled to haul my papers through the snow and windchills of -100. Granted, that was in a city with houses every 20 feet that I could knock on the door and ask for help if needed. Should my parents go to jail? That was the norm, and that was only the early 80's.
I need a few questions answered before coming to a conclusion:
Had the kids made this walk before?
Was the father in good enough physical condition to make the walk, or walk home?
How long after the kids left did he get the car unstuck?
Were the roads too bad to attempt to pick up the kids and drive them the rest of the way?
What was the weather like when the kids left, and what time was it? Did the weather get worse unexpectedly?
This is rural cold country. At 12 it's not unheard of to be outdoors and walk distances in the cold and snow. I would not be surprised if they had walked to Mom's before in better or even similar weather. The father and kids were stuck in the car, options were limited. Wait in the car and maybe freeze to death, leave the kids in the car and walk to help, and maybe freeze to death, or let the kids walk ahead. If it was 27 and snowing when the kids left, in Wisconsin winter that is a pretty nice day.
The father did not seem too concerned letting them go, he did not go get them once the car was unstuck, maybe he had reason to believe there was no reason to worry? That or he gets the brown ribbon in the father of the year contest. |
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10/08/2009 03:52:09 PM · #7 |
| No matter how you dress it up it's endangering the welfare of the children. You have two children walking in sub zero temperatures for over 10 miles. Let's just say for arguments sake that they could walk a mile in the snow in fifteen minutes. They had to walk 10 miles making that a total walk time in the freezing temperatures of 2.5 hours. Slice it and dice it how you want but no kid should be in temperatures like that for 2.5 hours, especially without adult supervision. He got off easy if you ask me. |
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10/08/2009 04:11:29 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Growing up in wisconsin, i walked miles doing a paper route and walked over a mile to school at that age, in colder temps. I remember using a sled to haul my papers through the snow and windchills of -100. Granted, that was in a city with houses every 20 feet that I could knock on the door and ask for help if needed. Should my parents go to jail? That was the norm, and that was only the early 80's.
I need a few questions answered before coming to a conclusion:
Had the kids made this walk before?
Was the father in good enough physical condition to make the walk, or walk home?
How long after the kids left did he get the car unstuck?
Were the roads too bad to attempt to pick up the kids and drive them the rest of the way?
What was the weather like when the kids left, and what time was it? Did the weather get worse unexpectedly?
This is rural cold country. At 12 it's not unheard of to be outdoors and walk distances in the cold and snow. I would not be surprised if they had walked to Mom's before in better or even similar weather. The father and kids were stuck in the car, options were limited. Wait in the car and maybe freeze to death, leave the kids in the car and walk to help, and maybe freeze to death, or let the kids walk ahead. If it was 27 and snowing when the kids left, in Wisconsin winter that is a pretty nice day.
The father did not seem too concerned letting them go, he did not go get them once the car was unstuck, maybe he had reason to believe there was no reason to worry? That or he gets the brown ribbon in the father of the year contest. |
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on it too. We don't know this family or their past. He may very well be a horrible father that made a fatal stupid decision, but he could also be a very loving father who made the worst decision of his life and no punishment the state puts on him will be worse than what he's putting himself through for letting his kids out in that weather.
"City folk" are going to freak out and think this father is a horrible man just based on the fact that he let the kids walk ahead in the weather. I was raised in a pretty rural area (1+ miles to bus stop on dirt road, etc), and the rule my parents gave me was, "You have to be able to see the house."
That let me go pretty damn far seeing as my house sat in basically a crater with four desert hills around it. There was all kinds of trouble I could get myself into. There was a rattle snake den on one side, random rattlers all over the hills, sharp rocks, a small cliff, I even ran into strangers sometimes that were completely lost and needed directions back to town. I was running around alone on those hills probably as early as 5 years old. The older I got the further I went until we moved down into town when I was 9 or 10.
I did get lost in a blizzard once while up there when I was about 6. I was just feet from the house and initially it was just snowing. I don't know what happened, but I somehow got turned around when it started snowing in sheets (probably chasing snowflakes with my tongue, heh). When I realized that I had no idea which way I was facing, I started calling as loud as I could for my dad who I knew was outside too, but hear him calling for me too over the howling wind. I caught a hint of the big light on our shop that dad turned on trying to find me and went running straight into his arms.
They raised me to be tough and aware of my surroundings. They let me explore, learn, and live life. My parents were by no means bad or unloving parents. This guy might also be a great dad or maybe a terrible one.
Like  Five_Seat said, "there will be no winners here..."
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10/08/2009 04:17:39 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
No matter how you dress it up it's endangering the welfare of the children. You have two children walking in sub zero temperatures for over 10 miles. Let's just say for arguments sake that they could walk a mile in the snow in fifteen minutes. They had to walk 10 miles making that a total walk time in the freezing temperatures of 2.5 hours. Slice it and dice it how you want but no kid should be in temperatures like that for 2.5 hours, especially without adult supervision. He got off easy if you ask me. |
First off, 27 degrees is far from sub zero in the united states.
On snow days (no school because of too much snow) in wisconsin we'd be out sledding and playing hockey all day in real sub zero and snow with no adults around and about a mile from home. I guess all our parents should be in jail?
Letting your kid play football could be considered endangering the welfare of your children. I'm not saying this guy is innocent, but I can see circumstances where he does not deserve to spend 24 years in jail and be blaimed for the death of his daughter. |
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10/08/2009 04:49:52 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by trevytrev:
No matter how you dress it up it's endangering the welfare of the children. You have two children walking in sub zero temperatures for over 10 miles. Let's just say for arguments sake that they could walk a mile in the snow in fifteen minutes. They had to walk 10 miles making that a total walk time in the freezing temperatures of 2.5 hours. Slice it and dice it how you want but no kid should be in temperatures like that for 2.5 hours, especially without adult supervision. He got off easy if you ask me. |
First off, 27 degrees is far from sub zero in the united states.
On snow days (no school because of too much snow) in wisconsin we'd be out sledding and playing hockey all day in real sub zero and snow with no adults around and about a mile from home. I guess all our parents should be in jail?
Letting your kid play football could be considered endangering the welfare of your children. I'm not saying this guy is innocent, but I can see circumstances where he does not deserve to spend 24 years in jail and be blaimed for the death of his daughter. |
I merely responded to your first post that you stated it was from 27 to -5 degrees, i assumed it was F. As for you being a mile from home and playing in the snow, one mile from home is quite a difference than 10 miles. You get cold it takes you 15 minutes to go get warm, they had and additional 2 hours and fifteen minutes to go. Plus, when you go out to play you usually dress accordingly knowing you where going to be in the cold for a while, she had on a heavy coat and pajama bottoms. I would say if your parents let you go out for 2.5 hours in those kinds of temps with pajama bottoms on then they should be locked up as well, it's utterly ridiculous. |
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10/08/2009 05:09:32 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
I merely responded to your first post that you stated it was from 27 to -5 degrees, i assumed it was F. As for you being a mile from home and playing in the snow, one mile from home is quite a difference than 10 miles. You get cold it takes you 15 minutes to go get warm, they had and additional 2 hours and fifteen minutes to go. Plus, when you go out to play you usually dress accordingly knowing you where going to be in the cold for a while, she had on a heavy coat and pajama bottoms. I would say if your parents let you go out for 2.5 hours in those kinds of temps with pajama bottoms on then they should be locked up as well, it's utterly ridiculous. |
I don't disagree. I searched for other stories to get more info and there really isn't much more out there. Pajama bottoms could be misleading because wisconsin pajama bottoms can be pretty warm! I played hockey in jogging pants. Plus, what else were they wearing? Did they have gloves, hat, parka, scarf, boots... Did the weather go from good to bad quickly? 27 to -5 is a huge temp range! What was it when they left the car? Is this boy or girl a hunter that goes out with dad all the time in far worse conditions in far worse places? The authors of the articles I read missed a lot of details that could easily push this thing one way or the other.
Letting a 12 and 11 year old walk 10 miles in 27 degrees is not a big deal if they are capable and prepared. Letting them go in PJ's, at -5 during a blizzard when the most exercise they get is playing wii bowling would be asinine.
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10/08/2009 05:18:22 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by trevytrev:
I merely responded to your first post that you stated it was from 27 to -5 degrees, i assumed it was F. As for you being a mile from home and playing in the snow, one mile from home is quite a difference than 10 miles. You get cold it takes you 15 minutes to go get warm, they had and additional 2 hours and fifteen minutes to go. Plus, when you go out to play you usually dress accordingly knowing you where going to be in the cold for a while, she had on a heavy coat and pajama bottoms. I would say if your parents let you go out for 2.5 hours in those kinds of temps with pajama bottoms on then they should be locked up as well, it's utterly ridiculous. |
I don't disagree. I searched for other stories to get more info and there really isn't much more out there. Pajama bottoms could be misleading because wisconsin pajama bottoms can be pretty warm! I played hockey in jogging pants. Plus, what else were they wearing? Did they have gloves, hat, parka, scarf, boots... Did the weather go from good to bad quickly? 27 to -5 is a huge temp range! What was it when they left the car? Is this boy or girl a hunter that goes out with dad all the time in far worse conditions in far worse places? The authors of the articles I read missed a lot of details that could easily push this thing one way or the other.
Letting a 12 and 11 year old walk 10 miles in 27 degrees is not a big deal if they are capable and prepared. Letting them go in PJ's, at -5 during a blizzard when the most exercise they get is playing wii bowling would be asinine. |
I would guess by the outcome of the situation that they were not prepared and I seem to recall reading an article about this when it first happened that the kids were in house cloths b/c they thought they were taking a quick drive to moms with no plan to be in the cold for an extended time. Add to the fact that he was probably tried by a jury of his peers(though I don't know that for a fact) who are all accustomed to the weather and what is acceptable wear in that area I would say they felt that he was negligent in his actions by finding him guilty. I have a feeling that they were dressed for Wii bowling and not cold weather hiking. |
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10/08/2009 05:24:13 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
I would guess by the outcome of the situation that they were not prepared and I seem to recall reading an article about this when it first happened that the kids were in house cloths b/c they thought they were taking a quick drive to moms with no plan to be in the cold for an extended time. Add to the fact that he was probably tried by a jury of his peers(though I don't know that for a fact) who are all accustomed to the weather and what is acceptable wear in that area I would say they felt that he was negligent in his actions by finding him guilty. I have a feeling that they were dressed for Wii bowling and not cold weather hiking. |
If that is the case, then let the guy hang. I'm an optimist and try to think the best of people. I'd rather see this as a trajic accident then stupidity, so i hope for that until I have proof one way or the other.
The trial is going on right now. The guy is facing 24 years in jail. |
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10/08/2009 05:37:50 PM · #14 |
edit: Nevermind - I didn't read any of the thread - I thought it was a challenge suggestion and I was just going to second it.
Message edited by author 2009-10-08 17:37:54. |
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10/08/2009 07:16:56 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
edit: Nevermind - I didn't read any of the thread - I thought it was a challenge suggestion and I was just going to second it. |
Priceless. Can I "third" it? |
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10/08/2009 11:18:34 PM · #16 |
Based on what is said in the paper, and assuming there are no other pertinent facts, if I were on a jury, what would push me to go with "guilty" is the fact that after the car was freed, he went back home.
The "logical" thing would seem to be, IF you are going to send your kids out walking, then you free the car, you take said car and proceed along the route to make sure the kids are okay. |
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10/08/2009 11:41:48 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Based on what is said in the paper, and assuming there are no other pertinent facts, if I were on a jury, what would push me to go with "guilty" is the fact that after the car was freed, he went back home.
The "logical" thing would seem to be, IF you are going to send your kids out walking, then you free the car, you take said car and proceed along the route to make sure the kids are okay. |
I would have to agree with you on that one...
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10/09/2009 12:22:28 AM · #18 |
You know, there's probably a lot we don't know here. All we have is one newspaper's interpretation of the prosecution's side of the story. There's a lot of information we don't have which could either aggravate or explain the situation. As just one example, disorientation and loss of judgment are normal symptoms of hypothermia and fatigue. What if, in the process of trying to free the car, the father had become sufficiently impaired by either that his ability to exercise sound judgment and/or his estimate of the distance of how far they could walk had been seriously impaired? While that wouldn't make this any less of a tragedy, it would explain how such a situation could happen without criminal negligence. Likewise, it's possible there are facts that we don't know that could suggest criminal intent, or at least criminal negligence.
The fact is we don't know. Trying to speculate doesn't make this any less of a tragedy. Ultimately, it's up to the 12 men and women in the jury box to determine the most just course of action. I don't envy them, but I do trust them to do their jobs to the best of their ability.
~Terry
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10/09/2009 12:27:01 AM · #19 |
Just a few questions....
How many parents would send their kids on a 10 mile journey under ANY weather conditions...???
I mean, I don't care how accustomed to the cold you are, or where you grew up or how far & how long you played in the snow, would you seriously ever, under any circumstance, send your child on a 10 fricken mile walk.. Now, consider that walk in the snow... OMG.... This is beyond a bad decision.. Unless he is unaware of the effects of cold temperature on the human body, then he's more then guilty.. Your only job as a parent is to protect & provide & love your kids.. I'd say he pretty much failed on all levels here and he's LUCKY if he only has to spend the next 20 years or so in jail..
I can't see under any circumstance where his decision would be acceptable.. no matter what.. And, I can't believe that ANYONE can compare this to parents allowing their kids to play outside in the snow dressed appropriately, for a measured amount of time, most likely with supervision even if it was from affar... |
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10/09/2009 12:33:33 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
You know, there's probably a lot we don't know here. All we have is one newspaper's interpretation of the prosecution's side of the story. There's a lot of information we don't have which could either aggravate or explain the situation. As just one example, disorientation and loss of judgment are normal symptoms of hypothermia and fatigue. What if, in the process of trying to free the car, the father had become sufficiently impaired by either that his ability to exercise sound judgment and/or his estimate of the distance of how far they could walk had been seriously impaired? While that wouldn't make this any less of a tragedy, it would explain how such a situation could happen without criminal negligence. Likewise, it's possible there are facts that we don't know that could suggest criminal intent, or at least criminal negligence.
The fact is we don't know. Trying to speculate doesn't make this any less of a tragedy. Ultimately, it's up to the 12 men and women in the jury box to determine the most just course of action. I don't envy them, but I do trust them to do their jobs to the best of their ability.
~Terry |
Well, the defense rested today and claimed NONE of the above.. So, I guess it's safe to say that he was well aware of what he was doing, even offering this sound advice:
"The brother of a girl who died of hypothermia said Thursday that their father warned them to stay together, be careful and avoid nearby farm fields before the children set out to trek several miles to their mother's house last Christmas Day."
Here's the article... So sad and I still can't wrap my brain around the reason he would let them walk..
article |
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10/09/2009 07:06:02 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Just a few questions....
How many parents would send their kids on a 10 mile journey under ANY weather conditions...??? |
Bingo!
How many of you out there can walk ten miles comfortably in proper dress and shoes?
It's further than you think, and to let two smaller children do it in the snow and freezing weather is criminal.
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10/09/2009 11:58:49 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Just a few questions....
How many parents would send their kids on a 10 mile journey under ANY weather conditions...??? |
Lets see, last week at Devil's lake in Wisconsin they had a Boy Scout Jamboree and there were about 1500 kids doing just that. When I climbed Mt St Helens a couple months ago I was surprised how many kids were doing it (well ahead of their adults too!). When I hiked Paria Canyon in June (40 miles-4 days) We came across a few kids (even carrying their own pack, and miles from their adults, the horror!). When I go out hiking (almost every weekend) I always see kids out there. Often times the kids are without adults. A kid on a 10 mile journey is not unusual! Not everyone keeps their kids in a bubble.
However, I read some more about the case and I'm thinking it was a bone head decision. There was a second adult in the car at the time. There were far better options. Worthy of 24 years in jail? I don't want to make that decision, but that's more time then your average child rapist serves...
Message edited by author 2009-10-09 12:02:19. |
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10/09/2009 12:12:10 PM · #23 |
There is no reason he had to stay with the car. He could have walked the 10 miles with them if it was so important that they get there. The he could have called for a tow truck. If the kids were safer walking, then so was he. If he was safer staying with the car, the so were the kids. There was no reason to split up. I grew up in Minnesota, and was out in -20, -60 below windchill watching my husband playing broom ball. I was dressed for the cold. Yes, my children had very warm pajamas when we lived in Minnesota, but they were still one layer of thick fleece which is not much protection from wind -- wind goes right through them. It is difficult to do a 15 minute mile when you're a child and it's snowing.
First rule of life: if you have an unexpected emergency situation, it's best to stick together if possible. It certainly was possible. And if he didn't even go check on them after the car was out and running, then it's getting close to more than manslaughter, in my not so humble opinion as a mother! |
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10/09/2009 12:30:25 PM · #24 |
10 miles is 3-4 hours of walking. If your 11-12 year old can not physically walk for 3-4 hours they have a problem (in my opinion). Take away their X-box! I̢۪m not a parent, but I̢۪d hope you can leave a 11-12 year old on their own without supervision for 3-4 hours? If you live in a warm climate, 27 to -5 degrees and snow sounds bad. In areas like where this happened it̢۪s a way of life for a quarter of the year and not a big deal.
Were these kids ready for this? Were they prepared? Was it a good decision? Based on the outcome, no on all three. Are there kids out there that can do this and do do this regularly? Yes.
Message edited by author 2009-10-09 12:32:33. |
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10/09/2009 01:00:52 PM · #25 |
Damn, I̢۪m from there and all I have to say is wow, I cant believe the father agreed with the children walking in that. The walk is all uphill, and my good God nobody lives there, it̢۪s all a huge lava bed. As far as weather NO it̢۪s not normal, yes it gets cold but storms rarely get threw as the Snake river canyon usually split the storms to the north and south, if a storm gets threw they are big and nasty
Sorry folks I know that areaâ€Â¦.GULTY, 10 years is not enough!!! |
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