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09/26/2009 01:43:29 PM · #376 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Ivo:
Doc, you didn't bring this stuff up at the reunion did you? They would have pummeled you! ;-) |
No. I was too busy performing the Heimlich on my wife. True story. Worked like a charm. Phew! |
Yikes! That must have been scary ... so glad it worked out! |
It was the shrimp cocktail wasn't it? Hope she is well. |
You know, that's what I was worried about. Jenn is allergic to seafood and at first I thought she was having an allergic reaction. She was all red and holding her throat. I was all geared to make the dash to the car for her epi-pen, but she managed to get out the word "choking" which made me realize what was really going on. It was a piece of beef and while we didn't get the typical flying-of-a-foreign-body-across-the-room, the maneuver fixed her immediately. At the moment it was all too fast to be scared, but in retrospect I am a little distressed that a) Jenn had classically left the room to try to take care of the problem privately (common with choking victims which is a bad thing) and b) I had the wrong diagnosis in my mind at first. I am thankful it all worked out fine!
Everybody who doesn't know the heimlich should learn it and if anybody chokes out there do not leave the room because you are embarassed!!! |
Glad you got it right Doc and your right, instincts play first and the worry and distress comes after the moment is gone, too scary. Everyone should be taught that and CPR, both are definitely life savers. |
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09/26/2009 01:46:33 PM · #377 |
| I've been certified for both CPR and level 'C' CPR (which is infant/child). I need re-certs on both though. |
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09/26/2009 02:10:15 PM · #378 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The problem here is you keep confusing physical journies for the metaphorical one I'm speaking of. I LOVE going on road trips. Heck, I deducted over 2,000 miles on my taxes last year for my photography business. But I don't love the idea of a random (ie. no) purpose to my life. |
(Glad your wife is okay. Glad you knew the Heimlich).
No - these are not just physical journeys. While I do travel physically, it is the mental/spiritual journey that is important. Maybe it is just that you separate the physical and mental/spiritual more than we do. The mind can travel without the body (dreams for instance) but the body cannot travel without the mind.
What is the purpose to your life? What is goal for which you are aimed? Maybe if I understand yours, I can be more accurate in describing mine, or at least use a metaphor to which you can relate. At minimum, my purpose in life is to learn and to experience and to understand everything. To what goal? Ultimately, compassion. Not just for man, but for the world in general. To walk in the shoes of as many beings as possible. My goal is completely focused on the here and now as I do not believe there is a there and later. |
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09/26/2009 02:12:15 PM · #379 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I would submit it would be possible for dual worlds to interact without obvious measures. Take the mind. While one would speculate we should be able to see the "ghost" in the machine, we also know that at least currently we lack any sort of sophistication in measuring the trillions upon trillions of neuronal connections. |
Maybe not, and if there was something pulling levers behind the scenes of your mind, as you put it, free will would not exist.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Likewise a Supreme Being could exert an effect in the quantum foam of matter. Having ultimate knowledge, it could be easy to know exactly where to invoke a Butterfly Effect to accomplish his purposes. |
Just as the butterfly effect could be traced back to the butterfly, ANY sort of influence upon our universe requires a physical interaction. There can be no effect without cause. |
Actually, in my mind the thing pulling the levers was Free Will (of your non-physical you exerting Free Will by pulling levers).
I agree with your second statement. I was just pointing out that the influence could be easily lost in the noise and impossible to detect. Think about an atomic bomb which ultimately is traced back to the random decay of atoms. At the point we stop being able to measure things we declare it to be "random". But is it? Could something else be exerting an effect on that level? Again, I'm not asserting this is the way it works, but I'm pointing out it is at least rational. |
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09/26/2009 02:13:46 PM · #380 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The problem here is you keep confusing physical journies for the metaphorical one I'm speaking of. I LOVE going on road trips. Heck, I deducted over 2,000 miles on my taxes last year for my photography business. But I don't love the idea of a random (ie. no) purpose to my life. |
(Glad your wife is okay. Glad you knew the Heimlich).
No - these are not just physical journeys. While I do travel physically, it is the mental/spiritual journey that is important. Maybe it is just that you separate the physical and mental/spiritual more than we do. The mind can travel without the body (dreams for instance) but the body cannot travel without the mind.
What is the purpose to your life? What is goal for which you are aimed? Maybe if I understand yours, I can be more accurate in describing mine, or at least use a metaphor to which you can relate. At minimum, my purpose in life is to learn and to experience and to understand everything. To what goal? Ultimately, compassion. Not just for man, but for the world in general. To walk in the shoes of as many beings as possible. My goal is completely focused on the here and now as I do not believe there is a there and later. |
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others. |
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09/26/2009 02:28:20 PM · #381 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The problem here is you keep confusing physical journies for the metaphorical one I'm speaking of. I LOVE going on road trips. Heck, I deducted over 2,000 miles on my taxes last year for my photography business. But I don't love the idea of a random (ie. no) purpose to my life. |
(Glad your wife is okay. Glad you knew the Heimlich).
No - these are not just physical journeys. While I do travel physically, it is the mental/spiritual journey that is important. Maybe it is just that you separate the physical and mental/spiritual more than we do. The mind can travel without the body (dreams for instance) but the body cannot travel without the mind.
What is the purpose to your life? What is goal for which you are aimed? Maybe if I understand yours, I can be more accurate in describing mine, or at least use a metaphor to which you can relate. At minimum, my purpose in life is to learn and to experience and to understand everything. To what goal? Ultimately, compassion. Not just for man, but for the world in general. To walk in the shoes of as many beings as possible. My goal is completely focused on the here and now as I do not believe there is a there and later. |
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others. |
Interesting, I've gotten the impression that you feel without God, or the belief in God, there is really no purpose in life and you just can't subscribe to that belief. Though in this post you choose two purposes to your life, love God and love others. So isn't reasonable to assume that other people could leave out the love God part and still abide by the love others and have just as meaningful and fulfilling life as yourself? |
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09/26/2009 02:44:25 PM · #382 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others. |
and what is your goal? |
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09/26/2009 02:53:35 PM · #383 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I was just pointing out that the influence could be easily lost in the noise and impossible to detect. |
There's something decidedly underwhelming about "In the beginning, God created a tiny fluctuation in energy that would be converted to the matter that formed a random lepton that would one day lead to a hurricane that leveled New Orleans." With every step, it paints the awesome power of gods into ever smaller niches— gods make lightning... uh, they make the electricity that forms lightning... uh, they make the atmospheric conditions that allow static charges to accumulate... um, well, they made the matter that formed the climate that... er, they made the subatomic particles that developed... um, they certainly created the physics that dictates quantum... ahhh, gods wrote the script for a universe that would have a particular set of physics that...
The stories often start with with one on one conversations from god to the "chosen ones," move through hearsay to signs and omens, and inevitably progress to some form of "it's a secret that we're not allowed to know." This is one of the earlier paradoxes I mentioned: a God defined as undetectable and unknowable cannot be possibly described, its will cannot be supposed, and belief in it cannot be expected. To declare otherwise would be absurd in any other context, and in every case but the individual's imagination it IS. |
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09/26/2009 05:28:16 PM · #384 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others. |
What is the point of loving God? - What are you expecting out of it? (I thought that belief in Jesus was enough to get into Heaven, so why the need to love God?)
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09/26/2009 06:11:37 PM · #385 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others. |
What is the point of loving God? - What are you expecting out of it? (I thought that belief in Jesus was enough to get into Heaven, so why the need to love God?) |
Oh, I'm not expecting anything out of it in the sense you are asking. It's probably difficult for someone outside the faith to grasp. I love God because I am fulfilled by doing so. My soul resonates when I am accomplishing this purpose. |
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09/26/2009 06:13:38 PM · #386 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
The stories often start with with one on one conversations from god to the "chosen ones," move through hearsay to signs and omens, and inevitably progress to some form of "it's a secret that we're not allowed to know." This is one of the earlier paradoxes I mentioned: a God defined as undetectable and unknowable cannot be possibly described, its will cannot be supposed, and belief in it cannot be expected. To declare otherwise would be absurd in any other context, and in every case but the individual's imagination it IS. |
I guess it's here where we differ. "Undetectable" and "unknowable" to you mean exclusivly in the realm of Science and the scientific method. I feel I can detect God through personal revelation and know God through rational thought. I understand though that those concepts qualify as "absurd" in your view.
It's interesting you are so underwhelmed by your "in the beginning" phrase because it's more or less exactly what Scientists theorize happened. Some random fluctuation in a Higgs field caused the Big Bang to spring from "nothingness". I guess I'm unsure why it would be underwhelming to apprecaite an intelligence who would have the power to manifest such an action.
Message edited by author 2009-09-26 18:16:01. |
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09/26/2009 06:17:57 PM · #387 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others. |
and what is your goal? |
To do 1 with all my heart, soul and mind and to do 2 as much as I would love myself. Here we can agree. I will never "arrive" at having accomplished these goals perfectly so I can enjoy the toil. As Paul puts it, I am "running the good race". |
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09/26/2009 06:29:08 PM · #388 |
Yeah...Time doesn't actually exist as much as its a concept. Its not a physical thing. Its not like someone can point to something and say "oh look theres time"
There is a ton of stuff like Time. Math for example. A system made up by humans and is used to explain just about everythign in the world.
Colors as well! They don't exist, because if they did exist, they would be something that is plainly seen by everyone and everything everywhere. If you put a picture on the wall, everything with the ability of sight will see that its a picture, but not everything/everyone will be able to see the color of it. If color was absolute, then it would be universally visible no matter who was viewing.
My brain lives in what could be the matrix. |
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09/26/2009 06:32:13 PM · #389 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others.
To do 1 with all my heart, soul and mind and to do 2 as much as I would love myself. Here we can agree. I will never "arrive" at having accomplished these goals perfectly so I can enjoy the toil. As Paul puts it, I am "running the good race". |
My purpose is to know and understand. My goal is to love (compassion). It would seem we are very similar as I consider the world and everything in it God (for me, your 1 and 2 are the same thing).
So I don't understand why you believe my path is purposeless and without goals. I would think, morally, we are on similar paths though we take different routes to get there.
(As an aside, most christians would consider me an atheist - I have no greater being outside of space and time, who created man in his image, etc.). |
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09/26/2009 07:23:18 PM · #390 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others.
To do 1 with all my heart, soul and mind and to do 2 as much as I would love myself. Here we can agree. I will never "arrive" at having accomplished these goals perfectly so I can enjoy the toil. As Paul puts it, I am "running the good race". |
My purpose is to know and understand. My goal is to love (compassion). It would seem we are very similar as I consider the world and everything in it God (for me, your 1 and 2 are the same thing).
So I don't understand why you believe my path is purposeless and without goals. I would think, morally, we are on similar paths though we take different routes to get there.
(As an aside, most christians would consider me an atheist - I have no greater being outside of space and time, who created man in his image, etc.). |
Many Christians might not be familiar with the term "pantheist". Anyway, I was thinking about things for a bit and perhaps the difference between us, as I see it, is that while we may have similar goals, I do not have the freedom to dictate how that goal is carried out. In other words, the manner in which I should accomplish my goals is dictated by an external source where I'm guessing you would feel the manner in which you should accomplish your own similar goals is dictated internally by yourself. If this is true, we can naturally see the discomfort we feel for each other's system. I see your system as being all "willy nilly" while you see my system as lacking any freedom of personal expression. At least that's the way I see it.
Message edited by author 2009-09-26 19:24:42. |
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09/26/2009 07:25:51 PM · #391 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I guess it's here where we differ. "Undetectable" and "unknowable" to you mean exclusivly in the realm of Science and the scientific method. I feel I can detect God through personal revelation and know God through rational thought. I understand though that those concepts qualify as "absurd" in your view. |
Not to speak for Shannon but for me the absurdity enters the picture with some of your conclusions. What exactly qualifies as a personal revelation to you? What is it that you're detecting that you attribute to God? Is God speaking words to you? Making you feel "confident"? You choose to believe and good things follow? You look outside and simply conclude this can't happen by accident?
Message edited by author 2009-09-26 19:27:41.
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09/26/2009 07:58:24 PM · #392 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others. |
What is the point of loving God? - What are you expecting out of it? (I thought that belief in Jesus was enough to get into Heaven, so why the need to love God?) |
Oh, I'm not expecting anything out of it in the sense you are asking. It's probably difficult for someone outside the faith to grasp. I love God because I am fulfilled by doing so. My soul resonates when I am accomplishing this purpose. |
Have you considered the possibility that this feeling is caused by monoamine neurotransmitters?
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09/26/2009 08:45:24 PM · #393 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
At the barest bones, my purpose in life:
1) Love God.
2) Love others. |
What is the point of loving God? - What are you expecting out of it? (I thought that belief in Jesus was enough to get into Heaven, so why the need to love God?) |
Oh, I'm not expecting anything out of it in the sense you are asking. It's probably difficult for someone outside the faith to grasp. I love God because I am fulfilled by doing so. My soul resonates when I am accomplishing this purpose. |
Have you considered the possibility that this feeling is caused by monoamine neurotransmitters? |
Possibly. Have you considered my creator created a monoamine neurotransmitter for this very purpose? :) |
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09/26/2009 08:51:40 PM · #394 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I guess it's here where we differ. "Undetectable" and "unknowable" to you mean exclusivly in the realm of Science and the scientific method. I feel I can detect God through personal revelation and know God through rational thought. I understand though that those concepts qualify as "absurd" in your view. |
Not to speak for Shannon but for me the absurdity enters the picture with some of your conclusions. What exactly qualifies as a personal revelation to you? What is it that you're detecting that you attribute to God? Is God speaking words to you? Making you feel "confident"? You choose to believe and good things follow? You look outside and simply conclude this can't happen by accident? |
I think if God started speaking words to me I'd be a bit alarmed. :) No, personal revelation is difficult to explain. It probably qualifies as feelings or yearings which feel very deep. For example, the feeling that I possess free will. I know as much as I know anything that I can dictate my actions. This is, at least, a very strong instinct for a dual world. To me, if I cannot trust this feeling, if it is merely an illusion, I very much need to call into question ANY feeling or sense I have and I'm not prepared to fall down that solipsistic slope. I have similar feelings about morality and about the brokeness of the world. Instincts like this, to me, help lead toward a concept of God. |
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09/26/2009 08:55:31 PM · #395 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
and about the brokeness of the world. |
Wow. Interesting. I never think of the world as broken. Guess its just how one looks at things. |
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09/26/2009 09:10:59 PM · #396 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I guess it's here where we differ. "Undetectable" and "unknowable" to you mean exclusivly in the realm of Science and the scientific method. I feel I can detect God through personal revelation and know God through rational thought. I understand though that those concepts qualify as "absurd" in your view. |
Not to speak for Shannon but for me the absurdity enters the picture with some of your conclusions. What exactly qualifies as a personal revelation to you? What is it that you're detecting that you attribute to God? Is God speaking words to you? Making you feel "confident"? You choose to believe and good things follow? You look outside and simply conclude this can't happen by accident? |
I think if God started speaking words to me I'd be a bit alarmed. :) No, personal revelation is difficult to explain. It probably qualifies as feelings or yearings which feel very deep. For example, the feeling that I possess free will. I know as much as I know anything that I can dictate my actions. This is, at least, a very strong instinct for a dual world. To me, if I cannot trust this feeling, if it is merely an illusion, I very much need to call into question ANY feeling or sense I have and I'm not prepared to fall down that solipsistic slope. I have similar feelings about morality and about the brokeness of the world. Instincts like this, to me, help lead toward a concept of God. |
is it fair to say you need God? Whether he (or she) actually exists is secondary, but still important? |
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09/26/2009 09:27:30 PM · #397 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
and about the brokeness of the world. |
Wow. Interesting. I never think of the world as broken. Guess its just how one looks at things. |
Curious, do you see it as fixed?
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09/26/2009 09:33:38 PM · #398 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The problem here is you keep confusing physical journies for the metaphorical one I'm speaking of. |
No *I* don't, I am just using it as an easier way for YOU to understand that I have no idea where I'm going with my life, soul, psyche, state of being, when I die.
I patently refuse to examine it because I feel that the path I take now is for its own sake as opposed to a direction for the next step.
That means I won't venture an opinion one way or the other because I find it irrelevant.
The whole concept that "If you don't accept (Insert Diety Here), you'll not achieve salvation." is a reprehensible idea for me.....it's the threat/reward system, and I don't buy it.
So....guess what?
It *IS* a random journey for me 'cause I don't care to ponder about something that I cannot do anything about.
What will be will be.
Message edited by author 2009-09-26 21:34:28.
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09/26/2009 09:57:37 PM · #399 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
and about the brokeness of the world. |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Wow. Interesting. I never think of the world as broken. Guess its just how one looks at things. |
Originally posted by yanko:
Curious, do you see it as fixed? |
In order for it to be fixed, wouldn't it have to have been broken?
I don't think the world's broken, but I sure have my doubts about one of its inhabiting species....
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09/26/2009 10:03:09 PM · #400 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
and about the brokeness of the world. |
Wow. Interesting. I never think of the world as broken. Guess its just how one looks at things. |
Ya, I'll echo Richard. You view the world as whole? What do you make of all the suffering in the world? Is it as it is or should it be otherwise?
Message edited by author 2009-09-26 22:03:29. |
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