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09/25/2009 03:07:35 PM · #326 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
I would argue that it has become genetically encoded in us because of it's self-serving attributes.
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this statement alone could be an argument for a supreme designer. |
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09/25/2009 03:11:21 PM · #327 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
For all those who enjoy the journey more than the destination, can I ask whether a journey of Brownian Motion would be worthwhile? If you say "yes", then I can see the root of our differences as I would not consider a journey of random movement to be fulfilling. If you say "no", then I would still ask where are you headed? |
Have you ever been with small children at a carnival? They bounce from one place to another, randomly, to what ever catches the eye at the moment. Such fun and such joy! All the new discoveries, the life, the color, the smells! Yes - it is always worthwhile to move from moment to moment with a sense of awe and pleasure and with anticipation at all the new things yet to be discovered.
Achoo, you would really hate to travel with me. Luckily, my husband is the same and the only thing annoying about him is his urge, every 5 minutes, to say, "Look! You have to take a picture of that!" We took a walk down the beach at Asbury Park and it took us 2 hours to go 100 yards and back. But the wonder of it all! There is beauty in the minutia of life. What's the phrase? "Stop and smell the roses..." |
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09/25/2009 03:13:45 PM · #328 |
Dahkota - was that because you stepped on a syringe and then got mugged?
I do love Asbury Park though. |
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09/25/2009 03:14:41 PM · #329 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by eqsite:
I would argue that it has become genetically encoded in us because of it's self-serving attributes.
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this statement alone could be an argument for a supreme designer. |
Or a logical outcome of the evolutionary process up to this point. |
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09/25/2009 03:15:26 PM · #330 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ivo, if you didn't catch that Mousie is an angry individual from his palpable glee at being able to "demonize the demonizer", you're pretty slow. ;) |
If you didn't catch that I like the New Atheists to do that for me so that I don't have to myself, you're pretty slow.
Notice that I did not, and do not, count myself amongst them.
They're like a really great drama on TV... finally someone has stepped into the ring to go to battle with theists on their own terms and with their own techniques. It's exciting to watch, like watching an even boxing match excites others. Why would you be surprised that I'd find this interesting?
I mean, come on! Who amongst us doesn't like a little comeuppance? Hello literature. Hello heaven and hell!
But if you two would like to insist that I'm angry to discount me, go right ahead. My father was a curmudgeon, and I respect that. Some people don't like him because he's abrasive, but nobody thinks he's dumb. The people who don't listen to him are the ones that lose. I'll totally cop to stupidity and hypocrisy making me rather mad, myself... It's just surprising that anyone would readily volunteer themselves (as opposed to their ideas) to play that role, the supposed subject of my ire. Perhaps I should forward excerpts from the numerous personal messages I receive commending me on the seemingly endless patience and care I demonstrate for those I debate here. Apparently, my anger towards the people here is a matter of perspective. Love the sinner and hate the sin, I say! It's just sad to see a person's personal take on my emotional state (which in my mind is completely irrelevant to the truth of the points I'm making) and use it as a tool to shut down conversation.
Frankly, I kind of LIKE knowing that I'm a tad abrasive... it means that when people accept my ideas it's not because they like me, it's because the ideas are CORRECT. I haven't charmed or manipulated them into being on my side. Despite my character, they agree with me. It can be very illuminating and reassuring, in it's own way.
P.S. Glee is pleasure, not anger.
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 15:21:56. |
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09/25/2009 03:16:58 PM · #331 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
For all those who enjoy the journey more than the destination, can I ask whether a journey of Brownian Motion would be worthwhile? If you say "yes", then I can see the root of our differences as I would not consider a journey of random movement to be fulfilling. If you say "no", then I would still ask where are you headed? |
You beat me to it! I almost compared my journey to just that: Brownian motion.
I get all excited like I'm whizzing around in a pinball machine when I think about brownian motion. Oh the things you'll brush up against just doing what comes natural! |
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09/25/2009 03:17:20 PM · #332 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by eqsite:
I would argue that it has become genetically encoded in us because of it's self-serving attributes.
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this statement alone could be an argument for a supreme designer. |
Or a logical outcome of the evolutionary process up to this point. |
even this statement could be an argument for a supreme designer. |
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09/25/2009 03:17:57 PM · #333 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
For all those who enjoy the journey more than the destination, can I ask whether a journey of Brownian Motion would be worthwhile? If you say "yes", then I can see the root of our differences as I would not consider a journey of random movement to be fulfilling. If you say "no", then I would still ask where are you headed? |
Random motion and a single destination are not the only options. Another would be moving from place to place in a logical and purposeful manner. Upon reaching one destination we find other destinations become available to us and we move on. |
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09/25/2009 03:18:12 PM · #334 |
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
Dahkota - was that because you stepped on a syringe and then got mugged?
I do love Asbury Park though. |
Actually, no. We became fascinated by how the waves broke over the pilings. If you watched long enough, you could see the pattern to the size of the waves. 3 small ones, then a coupla seconds break and a big one. I got pictures around here somewhere... Oh, and how the different metals and woods weathered in the sea water. And how the barnacles were growing in one space and not the other. and how the algae was building up on the rocks, but only on one side and not the other. and how some of the rocks were streaked and some were splotchy. got pictures of all that too. |
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09/25/2009 03:21:18 PM · #335 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by eqsite:
I would argue that it has become genetically encoded in us because of it's self-serving attributes.
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this statement alone could be an argument for a supreme designer. |
Or a logical outcome of the evolutionary process up to this point. |
even this statement could be an argument for a supreme designer. |
I think there's still an intelligent design thread floating around somewhere if you want to get back into that. Suffice it to say that, yes you could use that as an argument for a supreme designer, but you'll find that it's unnecessary as evolution works just fine without one. |
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09/25/2009 03:25:45 PM · #336 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by eqsite:
I would argue that it has become genetically encoded in us because of it's self-serving attributes.
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this statement alone could be an argument for a supreme designer. |
Or a logical outcome of the evolutionary process up to this point. |
even this statement could be an argument for a supreme designer. |
I think there's still an intelligent design thread floating around somewhere if you want to get back into that. Suffice it to say that, yes you could use that as an argument for a supreme designer, but you'll find that it's unnecessary as evolution works just fine without one. |
i guess we don't need to go there. |
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09/25/2009 03:26:16 PM · #337 |
| You were looking in the wrong direction! The joy of asbury park is facing west, not east. Such a crazy landscape, and youre a sucker if you and your s/o didn't recreate the iconic picture of the Boss out in front of the casino at the start of the board walk. |
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09/25/2009 03:29:17 PM · #338 |
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
You were looking in the wrong direction! The joy of asbury park is facing west, not east. Such a crazy landscape, and youre a sucker if you and your s/o didn't recreate the iconic picture of the Boss out in front of the casino at the start of the board walk. |
there's a boardwalk?! (gotta find those Asbury Park shots.) |
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09/25/2009 03:30:47 PM · #339 |
Haha, hell yeah. Best boardwalk ever (also showcased in the Sopranos during the Dream Sequence that lead to Tony killing Big Pussy)
Down by the Convention Center/Stone Pony/Casino Carousel. |
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09/25/2009 03:36:27 PM · #340 |
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
Haha, hell yeah. Best boardwalk ever (also showcased in the Sopranos during the Dream Sequence that lead to Tony killing Big Pussy)
Down by the Convention Center/Stone Pony/Casino Carousel. |
We parked in front of the Stone Pony. Boardwalk was dead - it was raining. Saw the old buildings. think I saw the boardwalk down towards the convention center but no one was out. Here's a shot of the beach...
I think he was peeing. Maybe that's why all the people ran away. The breakwater behind him is where we ended up for a while...
I would really love to go back when it is awake. We only had a couple of hours - we were there to buy a boat... |
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09/25/2009 04:04:00 PM · #341 |
Wow, miss is few minutes on this thread and pages appear.
Mouse, I like your defining Reactionary Atheism (back on page 11) and I can relate to it (being a Christian) up until #5. With #5 you deni the existence of a spiritual world.
There are numerous religions around the would that believe in the spiritual world. Can they all be wrong?
Edit: I'm talking about religions on different continents. Asia, Afirca, South America.
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 16:52:21. |
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09/25/2009 04:07:12 PM · #342 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
... the only thing annoying about him is his urge, every 5 minutes, to say, "Look! You have to take a picture of that!" We took a walk down the beach at Asbury Park and it took us 2 hours to go 100 yards and back. But the wonder of it all! There is beauty in the minutia of life. What's the phrase? "Stop and smell the roses..." |
LOL -- it's my urge to stop every few steps which gets  Isaac a bit frustrated with me at times. :-)
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 16:08:26. |
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09/25/2009 04:17:05 PM · #343 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Wow, miss is few minutes on this thread and pages appear.
Mouse, I like your defining Reactionary Atheism (back on page 11) and I can relate to it (being a Christian) up until #5. With #5 you deni the existence of a spiritual world.
There are numerous religions around the would that believe in the spiritual world. Can they all be wrong? |
Yes. |
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09/25/2009 04:26:02 PM · #344 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
There are numerous religions around the would that believe in the spiritual world. Can they all be wrong? |
Yes they can, see this list of fallacious arguments, in particular the Appeal to widespread belief
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 16:26:24. |
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09/25/2009 04:38:50 PM · #345 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
For all those who enjoy the journey more than the destination, can I ask whether a journey of Brownian Motion would be worthwhile? If you say "yes", then I can see the root of our differences as I would not consider a journey of random movement to be fulfilling. If you say "no", then I would still ask where are you headed? |
Random motion and a single destination are not the only options. Another would be moving from place to place in a logical and purposeful manner. Upon reaching one destination we find other destinations become available to us and we move on. |
Respectfully (and I'm serious about that), if the motion and destination is on a moral map (which we've been talking about), how is this different from, "I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I feel like"? I think the analogy was getting changed. I love exploring the actual world and smelling the roses as much as the next guy, but we were talking about a "purpose" for life or a "greater good". And while we can certainly have multiple smaller purposes, I'm speaking about a very large and overarching one.
Anyway, at the least I hope I have described why such a mentality (if it truly exists) does not resonate with me. |
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09/25/2009 04:50:21 PM · #346 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Respectfully (and I'm serious about that), if the motion and destination is on a moral map (which we've been talking about), how is this different from, "I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I feel like"? I think the analogy was getting changed. I love exploring the actual world and smelling the roses as much as the next guy, but we were talking about a "purpose" for life or a "greater good". And while we can certainly have multiple smaller purposes, I'm speaking about a very large and overarching one.
Anyway, at the least I hope I have described why such a mentality (if it truly exists) does not resonate with me. |
I thought we were beyond the 'only God can supply us with morality' schtick. What is the relationship with a purpose in life and morality? What requires a purpose for life?
Additionally, there is no reason why "I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I feel like" can't result in a 'good' person. |
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09/25/2009 04:50:45 PM · #347 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Originally posted by Nullix:
There are numerous religions around the would that believe in the spiritual world. Can they all be wrong? |
Yes they can, see this list of fallacious arguments, in particular the Appeal to widespread belief |
I wasn't referring to communities of people hearing about a belief and following. I was referring to different religions across the world who independent believe in a spiritual realm.
You can't jump on the bandwagon if you live on another continent and don't have wagons. |
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09/25/2009 04:53:50 PM · #348 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
For all those who enjoy the journey more than the destination, can I ask whether a journey of Brownian Motion would be worthwhile? If you say "yes", then I can see the root of our differences as I would not consider a journey of random movement to be fulfilling. If you say "no", then I would still ask where are you headed? |
Random motion and a single destination are not the only options. Another would be moving from place to place in a logical and purposeful manner. Upon reaching one destination we find other destinations become available to us and we move on. |
Respectfully (and I'm serious about that), if the motion and destination is on a moral map (which we've been talking about), how is this different from, "I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I feel like"? I think the analogy was getting changed. I love exploring the actual world and smelling the roses as much as the next guy, but we were talking about a "purpose" for life or a "greater good". And while we can certainly have multiple smaller purposes, I'm speaking about a very large and overarching one.
Anyway, at the least I hope I have described why such a mentality (if it truly exists) does not resonate with me. |
I think you've missed my point. The real difference is whether there is a final goal, some absolute finish line to strive for. I don't just do whatever I feel like because I work within a moral framework just like you do. The question is, does that moral framework come from some absolute Morality that we all should strive for, or does the framework come from our own growth and development? My feeling is that as I grow, so does the moral framework that I work within. But not towards a final destination. It just continues to grow, much like a tree (going back to that anology). That said, we as humans share the same basic starting point (possibly based on instinct), so our moral frameworks end up with many similarities. But geographic and cultural differences shape those into many differenct varieties. That is why many people share the same basic morality (killing and stealing are bad), but differ on many of the more complex issues. |
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09/25/2009 05:13:19 PM · #349 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Respectfully (and I'm serious about that), if the motion and destination is on a moral map (which we've been talking about), how is this different from, "I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I feel like"? I think the analogy was getting changed. I love exploring the actual world and smelling the roses as much as the next guy, but we were talking about a "purpose" for life or a "greater good". And while we can certainly have multiple smaller purposes, I'm speaking about a very large and overarching one. |
So for a Christian, what is that purpose? |
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09/25/2009 05:23:51 PM · #350 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Wow, miss is few minutes on this thread and pages appear.
Mouse, I like your defining Reactionary Atheism (back on page 11) and I can relate to it (being a Christian) up until #5. With #5 you deni the existence of a spiritual world.
There are numerous religions around the would that believe in the spiritual world. Can they all be wrong?
Edit: I'm talking about religions on different continents. Asia, Afirca, South America. |
I don't deny the existence of a spiritual world in #5, I only state that there's no tangible evidence for the things assigned to the spiritual world. In effect, since they do not interact with the material world, the spiritual world is irrelevant. Claiming irrelevancy is not the same as denying existence. If something interacts directly with the material world, it exists. Zeus, for all appearances, does not, and neither does God, but that's no more a denial of them than it is a denial of orbital space elephants collecting solar energy with their ears. #5 is an observation that people make spiritual stuff up, with very little evidence for it's existence.
Getting back to duality for a moment, just because we live in a material world does not mean that immaterial things don't exist. Patterns exist. Concepts exist. Consciousness exists. Methods exist. These are things than can be created and destroyed, unlike matter and energy. However, they are not supernatural, nor spiritual, unless you consider a perfect circle supernatural. Does a perfect circle exist? Only as an idea, but not many people are confused about the naturalness of circles. Does a body cease to exist when cremated? Not really, it just gets partially converted to energy and scattered around a bit, but the idea that it's a body does end.
As a bunch of others have said before me, yes, those numerous religions can all be wrong. The very fact that they're so different indicates that they must be wrong, at least in part. You really only get one chosen people in a strict monotheistic culture based on the truth of their own deity's authority. If there are no gods before God, Hindus are out of luck.
Make no mistake, I don't begrudge people for spirituality. While I find it a bit naive, it's just another name for wonder, and when on the scale of an individual, it's mainly harmless. It's organized religion I'd have no truck with.
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 17:30:19. |
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