Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

09/03/2009 10:30:14 AM · #2776

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Nullix:
Marriage is to create a family, Marriage is a commitment between two people who love each other..

Where did you get the idea that it has anything to do with being about creating a family?

I swear you make these obtuse statements just to be ornery.

You really aren't this clueless and dense, I just *know* it.

I am always amazed at the statements you make towards me. Are you really this mean in person?

Sacrament of Marriage:
Marriage is a practice common to all cultures in all ages. It is, therefore, a natural institution, something common to all mankind. At its most basic level, marriage is a union between a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation and mutual support, or love. Each spouse in a marriage gives up some rights over his or her life in exchange for rights over the life of the other spouse.

procreation: to bring forth offspring

Family.

It's not that hard to understand. I didn't think it was too obtuse, any google search will show you. I'm not just some lone person saying this.

Edit:

Sorry Mouse, but this might get way off topic:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

An accident of biology does not a parent make, and unfortunately, just because you had a child does not make you committed.

Children are accidents? Maybe that's where your deep seated anger towards me comes from. Sorry, children aren't accidents and having a child makes you a parent (look up the definition). If you have a child, you're committed to something, your spouse or at least your child.

Message edited by author 2009-09-03 10:38:01.

Mousie

09/03/2009 12:16:01 PM · #2777

Originally posted by Nullix:

What a perfect little world you live in where every child is planned, wanted, and taken care of. *rolls eyes again*

What we have here is the triumph of desire over perception.

BACK ON TRACK:

What exactly are you defining, Nullix? Marriage, or the sacrament of marriage? They are different. Mechanical parts can be married. Peanut butter and chocolate can be married. That's called Reese's.

Cling to your semantics! Cling to them! Because if that's your defense, I can destroy it again and again, and I am pretty lazy, so that works for me. My own triumph is all but guaranteed! I have my marriage. I highly doubt it'll ever be taken away over the purported ownership of a misunderstood definition, at this point. The only thing you can do now is stick your fingers in your ears and pretend I don't have one, la la la. I know who's right. I look to my family.

And to run a bit further with my previous example... you got your religion in my marriage; the tastes do NOT go great together. Keep your sacrament to yourself and stop sticking it in my peanut butter.

Message edited by author 2009-09-03 12:17:34.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

09/03/2009 01:13:32 PM · #2778

Originally posted by Mousie:

... Keep your sacrament to yourself and stop sticking it in my peanut butter.

You messed up your own peanut butter.

Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; 1 Corinthians 6:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 1:26-27 (New American Standard Bible)

09/03/2009 01:14:31 PM · #2779

Originally posted by Nullix:

Sacrament of Marriage:
Marriage is a practice common to all cultures in all ages. It is, therefore, a natural institution, something common to all mankind. At its most basic level, marriage is a union between a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation and mutual support, or love. Each spouse in a marriage gives up some rights over his or her life in exchange for rights over the life of the other spouse.

Oh, YEAH!!!!!

Quote the Catholic church!

The final authority on matters of common sense, common decency, and ethics......NOT!!!

700 years of terror and human suffering in God's name from them trying to impose their will on the world.

Marriage is the commitment between two people. Period.

Just because in your mind it means that family is obligatory from that point doesn't mean a hill of beans to me.

At no point was a family a consideration when Lisa and I married.....as a mater of fact, we specifically did NOT want children.

My marriage vows were to my wife. Period......not to any church with any stipulations or conditions.

And my understanding is not that I have rights over my wife's life.......that's a pretty scary little caveat you threw in there.....what on earth does THAT mean????

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

An accident of biology does not a parent make, and unfortunately, just because you had a child does not make you committed.

Originally posted by Nullix:

No, don't think that you rent any space in my head as deep-seated anger.......truly, I feel this weird combination of exasperation, sorrow, and some ire, but I only get cranked when I think about how your supposed decent style of thought completely tramples others' rights and feelings.

If you would occasionally read something and think about it in context of how it's written instead of trying to read something into it, you'd be so much better off.

It was a basic statement that means that the biology is just that.

Being a parent means making the decision to commit to the love and care of a child.......just because you get someone pregnant, or become pregnant, does not automatically mean that you're committed......that's the biology reference.

You're making really problematic assumptions that just serve to make it patently obvious that you don't understand much of what life is all about.

Our beautiful, smart, funny, talented daughter was an accident, mistake, error in vigilance, whatever, yet we are ecstatic beyond description that she is a part of our lives.

We are committed to her health, well-being, education, happiness, and all that goes with being parents, but that was a careful and conscious decision that we made once it was apparent that Lisa was pregnant.

Our lives have been enriched, and brightened, beyond our wildest imagination.......and there was no plan for her......she just happened.

So, taking this wonderful,amazing, young, woman as an example, why would you assume an unplanned child is a bad thing?

Message edited by author 2009-09-04 10:06:28.

scalvert

09/03/2009 01:16:31 PM · #2780

Originally posted by Nullix:

At its most basic level, marriage is a union between a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation and mutual support, or love.

Only one of those three very different purposes requires a man and a woman, and it's the least universal of the three.

Message edited by author 2009-09-03 13:18:32.

09/03/2009 01:18:41 PM · #2781

Originally posted by Mousie:

... Keep your sacrament to yourself and stop sticking it in my peanut butter.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

You messed up your own peanut butter.

Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; 1 Corinthians 6:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 1:26-27 (New American Standard Bible)

Yeah, yeah......and pork is an abomination, seafood is an abomination, it's okay to own slaves, your wife must submit......

We have *SO* been over all that shit.

Please keep up.

You may not selectively decide what's okay to keep and what's okay to throw out.

If you're going to keep one abomination, you gotta keep 'em all, and I think you're gonna have a LOT of trouble trying to own another human being these days.

And I just had shrimp with my meal last night! UMMMMMMM!!!!!

merchillio

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/03/2009 01:29:54 PM · #2782

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Mousie:
... Keep your sacrament to yourself and stop sticking it in my peanut butter.

You messed up your own peanut butter.

Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; 1 Corinthians 6:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 1:26-27 (New American Standard Bible)

You quote the bible to prove that the bible is right... it's a bit of a circular reference.

We're talking about civil marriage, about social rights and recognition of said union by the state. You're talking about religious marriage, administered but a church who has every right to choose who they want to marry and they don't want to, but their rights stop at the church's doors. If you choose to follow their teachings good for you, but the church cannot force its beliefs on the state which represents people of many cultures and faiths.

09/03/2009 01:55:36 PM · #2783

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

If you would occasionally read something and think about it in context of how it's written instead of trying to read something into it, you'd be so much better off.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Yeah, yeah......and pork is an abomination, seafood is an abomination, it's okay to own slaves, your wife must submit......

You should take some of your own advice and take versus from the bible in context.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Our beautiful, smart, funny, talented daughter was an accident, mistake, error in vigilance, whatever, yet we are ecstatic beyond description that she is a part of our lives.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

09/03/2009 02:20:24 PM · #2784

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If you would occasionally read something and think about it in context of how it's written instead of trying to read something into it, you'd be so much better off.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Yeah, yeah......and pork is an abomination, seafood is an abomination, it's okay to own slaves, your wife must submit......

You should take some of your own advice and take versus from the bible in context.

That would be versus vs verses ... right???

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Our beautiful, smart, funny, talented daughter was an accident, mistake, error in vigilance, whatever, yet we are ecstatic beyond description that she is a part of our lives.

As you feel sorry for my children, I feel sorry for your daughter. To know she was an accident, mistake, or error. That is something truly sad. I hope she grows up understanding she is more than an error.[/quote]

You seemingly forgot to read this part: "yet we are ecstatic beyond description that she is a part of our lives."... but don't let that little tidbit of information sway your judgement in this regard.

09/03/2009 03:04:33 PM · #2785

Originally posted by RayEthier:

That would be versus vs verses ... right???

Don't confuse the poor boy with grammar & spelling.......illiteracy is no laughing matter.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

You seemingly forgot to read this part: "yet we are ecstatic beyond description that she is a part of our lives."... but don't let that little tidbit of information sway your judgement in this regard.

Why would he start to actually utilize the whole discussion, and in context, now?

He hasn't been to date.

09/03/2009 03:19:33 PM · #2786

Originally posted by Nullix:

You should take some of your own advice and take versus from the bible in context.

VERSES Duh!

Except that I think the bible is useful only as an allegorical teaching tool and as some examples of history......

I unequivocally do *NOT* believe that there is any such thing as literal translation because of the time and language issues, and I certainly have a good firm grasp on the fact that there is much that is completely irrelevant in today's applications.

The beauty of the evolution of the human psyche and society is that it is an ever-growing and progressing thing and the concept of rigorous adherence to concepts that are over 2000 years old is absurd.

Originally posted by Nullix:

See??? There's that selective context thing again......I did *NOT* say that I felt sorry for your children, what I said was:

I really hope that your children have a chance to grow up and meet people in the world that are outside of the very narrow spectrum that you operate within.

I hope that they get the chance to meet people of other mindsets than yours, and have the opportunity based on *their* relations and experiences with these people to draw their own conclusions as to what type of people they are.

And I hope that you respect their right to their own thoughts and conclusions based on their experiences.

I am an incurable optimist......I truly believe that if they get the chance, your children will be exposed to open-minded, free thinking, happy and well adjusted people and see that different is not a bad thing.

And my daughter certainly does not need, or want your sympathy or pity......she is a happy, loved, well-adjusted young woman with her own mind, and a zest for life.

We kid her about our little venture to Cozumel, the island of the Mayan fertility goddess, and when we were on vacation in July on the Mayan Riviera, she bought a top that says "Hecho en Mexico"......just in case your Spanish is lacking, that means "Made in Mexico".

She knows that she is special.

Mousie

09/03/2009 04:08:02 PM · #2787

Originally posted by glad2badad:

How is this relevant to me? I am neither a Christian, nor expect to do much but feed the plants after I'm dead. Oh no! Big loss, that imagined kindgom! No threat, that imagined lake of fire. I can go to Hawaii to see lava.

How does this prove that marriage and your sacrament of marriage are one and the same, which you seem to keep insisting?

Oh that's right, it doesn't! You'd rather condemn me to hell than respond to me logically. You can't even wait one post to do exactly what I asked you not to do, force your religion, which I do not share, into my life.

Now get your goddamn sacrament out of my peanut butter.

merchillio

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/03/2009 04:51:27 PM · #2788

Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Mousie:
... Keep your sacrament to yourself and stop sticking it in my peanut butter.

You messed up your own peanut butter.

Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; 1 Corinthians 6:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 1:26-27 (New American Standard Bible)

How is this relevant to me? I am neither a Christian, nor expect to do much but feed the plants after I'm dead. Oh no! Big loss, that imagined kindgom! No threat, that imagined lake of fire. I can go to Hawaii to see lava.

How does this prove that marriage and your sacrament of marriage are one and the same, which you seem to keep insisting?

Oh that's right, it doesn't! You'd rather condemn me to hell than respond to me logically. You can't even wait one post to do exactly what I asked you not to do, force your religion, which I do not share, into my life.

Now get your goddamn sacrament out of my peanut butter.

Why would he stop trying to save you? he has the only truth....

People like him can't understand that there is many ways to "enlightment" other than their own.

Faith is supposed to be private, everyone is entitled to his own. State laws are something else, they are made to govern everyone's (inside the jurisdiction) life, as a whole. You cannot hope to base the law on some verses in a book that is not relevant to everybody.

09/03/2009 06:40:46 PM · #2789

Originally posted by merchillio:

Faith is supposed to be private, everyone is entitled to his own. State laws are something else, they are made to govern everyone's (inside the jurisdiction) life, as a whole. You cannot hope to base the law on some verses in a book that is not relevant to everybody.

State laws aren't based on something else. They've always been based on God's laws. That's what the original writers of the Declaration of independance thought when they wrote, "...that they are endowed by their Creator..."

Where is religion addressed in the constitution? Is it oddly mentioned or burried somewhere in it? No, it's the first freedom mentioned in the first amendment of the US Constitution?

09/03/2009 07:05:26 PM · #2790

Getting back to the topic:

Ben & Jerry support freedom to marry for gay and lesbian couples in Vermont with Homosexual Ice Cream if you live in Vermont. Sorry Mouse, it's not in California yet.

I would boycott Ben & Jerry, but I eat the cheap ice cream.

Mousie

09/03/2009 07:51:28 PM · #2791

It makes me so proud that Ben & Jerry's, a company started in Vermont, the state of my own birth and my next 21 years, and where I worked (at the main manufacturing plant, Waterbury) during high school to pay the bills... it makes me so happy that they enthusiastically support my equal rights! I remember when my parents used to take my brother and I to Ben & Jerry's when they were just one tiny store run out of a converted gas station in downtown Burlington, all the ice cream made by hand. I'd get mine with a chocolate shell, something you don't see much in the chain stores. I really miss Chocolate Raspberry Swirl, from way back in the day! :)

If there was one company that's less deserving of a boycott, it's B&J's. For decades they've run a company focused on doing the right thing and asking others to join them on the ride. It is a special place.

Nullix, I wonder if you understand how you sound when, on one hand, you offer an apology, and on the other, offer to boycott the people selling the very thing you're 'sorry' I can't get.

scalvert

09/03/2009 08:13:50 PM · #2792

Originally posted by Nullix:

U.S. laws are based on the Constitution, NOT the Declaration of Independence. It draws authority from "We the people," and thus created the first nation NOT to claim authority from God. Motions for prayers during the Constitutional Conventions failed, with Ben Franklin commenting that only three or four supported prayer, while the rest thought it unnecessary. Thomas Jefferson himself wrote that, "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law," and John Adams noted that A. the United States was "the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature." B. That the developers of our government never, "had interviews with the gods or were in any degree under the inspiration of Heaven." and C. "[G]overnments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretense of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favour of the rights of mankind." Don't feel bad, though... Ben & Jerry's has a flavor for everyone. :-)

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/04/2009 04:43:12 AM · #2793

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Actually, glad2badad, you are the one condemned to the eternal fires of hell for your beliefs:

Surah 5:

5:72-75 â��They do blaspheme who say: â��Allah is Christ the son of Mary.â�� But said Christ: â��O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.â�� Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one Allah. If they desist not from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.â��

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

09/04/2009 07:12:00 AM · #2794

Originally posted by scalvert:

[Don't feel bad, though... Ben & Jerry's has a flavor for everyone. :-)

Scalvert, you owe me one huge monitor cleaning...hehehehe... GAWD that is funny. :O)

Ray

David Ey

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

09/04/2009 08:33:06 AM · #2795

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Mousie:
... Keep your sacrament to yourself and stop sticking it in my peanut butter.

You messed up your own peanut butter.

Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; 1 Corinthians 6:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 1:26-27 (New American Standard Bible)

Actually, glad2badad, you are the one condemned to the eternal fires of hell for your beliefs:

Surah 5:

5:72-75 â��They do blaspheme who say: â��Allah is Christ the son of Mary.â�� But said Christ: â��O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.â�� Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except one Allah. If they desist not from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.â��

Who named you Matthew?....And why haven't you changed it?

09/04/2009 08:53:21 AM · #2796

Originally posted by Mousie:

... Keep your sacrament to yourself and stop sticking it in my peanut butter.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

You messed up your own peanut butter.

Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; 1 Corinthians 6:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 1:26-27 (New American Standard Bible)

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by David Ey:

Who named you Matthew?....And why haven't you changed it?

You missed the point......

Actually, for this little jewel to have come from someone named Matthew is the quintessential irony......8>)

As is all too typical of extremists, and others who are under the arrogant conviction that their way is the only way, this guy's trying to jam his brainwashing down someone else's throat all the while condemning him.

Truth is, that's all he wants to do......there is no evidence that these Christian moralists want anyone from outside their purview in their lives, they just want to tell others how f*cked up they are.

Yet Jesus himself tried to teach compassion, tolerance, & understanding.

Since I am so vastly far from being a good Christian, I don't have to abide hatred and intolerance......I can just reconcile that some people are just arrogant and mean and decide to choose the people I associate with by how they treat me and the people around them.

I choose not to hang out with moralists that spend more time condemning everyone around them than concerning themselves with their own behaviors and helping others.

It's sad, really, that I have such a bad impression of what Christianity seems to be........from what I've read of Jesus, he was a pretty awesome fellow......it's a shame so many people condemn everyone who doesn't see things exactly their way in his name.

I wonder what he'd think of his "representatives" these days.....

merchillio

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/04/2009 09:41:54 AM · #2797

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I choose not to hang out with moralists that spend more time condemning everyone around them than concerning themselves with their own behaviors and helping others.

I found that, most of the time, moralists are the worst offenders. For the same reason that the more jealous a man is, the less faithful he probably is.

Just think about the "Let he without sin cast the first stone" story in the bible.

I worked with a moralist once, never a day passed by without him telling me how I was going to burn in hell because I was sleeping with my fiancÃ©e without eing married. The only day this didn't happen, a got to work and he was in the lunchroom, sobbing and crying. when we asked him what was wrong (we hated the attitude, not the person), he told us that the night before, he slept with a prostitute (maybe he was looking for Mary Magdalene). We didn't rub his nose in it, but after that, everytime he went "Fire and Brimstone" on us for sleeping with the person we love, we couldn't help but laugh a bit.

I'm pretty sure Jesus would be sad to see how much hate is spewed in His name. I'm not sure if it's translated in english, but you should read "L'Ã©vangile selon Pilate" (Pilate's gospel) by Eric-Emmanuel Schmitt. The novel is split in two section, the first part is Jesus' diary while He's waiting to be arrested on His last night, talking about His youth and growing up to understand His place in the world. The seccond part is Pontius Pilate's investigation to cath the culprits who "stole" Jesus' body to make people think he ressucitated, interogating witness and trying (unsuccessfully) to prove that either Jesus never ressucitated or He never really died on the cross. It might seem "anti-christian" but it is absolutely not. the book shows Jesus in a very human, caring and loving way. A man, unsure of His destiny that decided to forget Himself and simply love everybody, no mather who they are and what they did.

Man, I would so go for an icecream cone right now, let me google the closest B$J to my workplace

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/04/2009 09:43:57 AM · #2798

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Actually, for this little jewel to have come from someone named Matthew is the quintessential irony......8>)

As is all too typical of extremists, and others who are under the arrogant conviction that their way is the only way, this guy's trying to jam his brainwashing down someone else's throat all the while condemning him.

Please clarify who you are referring to when you say "this guy" - me?

09/04/2009 09:59:16 AM · #2799

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Matthew:

Please clarify who you are referring to when you say "this guy" - me?

Sorry.....didn't mean to be unclear....

Barry, with his spouting scripture at Mousie.....

I love it when Leviticus is quoted......NOT!!!

Matthew