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03/22/2009 09:58:29 PM · #26 |
Here's where I think it all goes wrong, from personal experience:
You join with the intention of improving your photography, I'm sure that's why 90% of the people are here.
You have some minor success with your photos, you think you're getting better
You start to try and take photos that can win ribbons because you really believe you can (this is the start of the decline)
You get bitter and resentful that your photos aren't scoring better, you KNOW they are better than that, why can't people see it
You get repeated bad scores, and the reason for this is that you are trying to produce photos you think people will like, rather than the ones you like taking, you can't understand it and begin to doubt your skills, which deepens the resentment
And so on...
Fortunately I went through this entire cycle in about 2 months, I'm back to taking photos I enjoy, I entered one that I know is going to score horribly in the 1-Second-Exposure, but I really liked it, so I'm looking forward to seeing peoples opinions on it either way. |
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03/22/2009 10:13:54 PM · #27 |
thanks for the reminder
I have been participating since July (missed a few weeks here and there) and I have to say my photos don't get the scores I'd like but I do see an upward trend more so lately towards well almost the medium mark....lol and as much as somethings hurt I also see a lot of what I'm critizied for and appreciate those that see something in there which keeps me coming back.............to learn and to realize that photography is really a subjective art and no two people see the same thing in any photo.......just keep truckin on |
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03/22/2009 10:14:35 PM · #28 |
| and the thought of a ribbon is so far out there at this point but hey maybe someday |
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03/22/2009 11:26:01 PM · #29 |
| thank you for the mentions. I am confused about the math of #2, though... |
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03/22/2009 11:29:15 PM · #30 |
| That was a brilliant post...enjoyed reading that |
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03/23/2009 04:06:39 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
Here's where I think it all goes wrong, from personal experience:
You join with the intention of improving your photography, I'm sure that's why 90% of the people are here.
You have some minor success with your photos, you think you're getting better
You start to try and take photos that can win ribbons because you really believe you can (this is the start of the decline)
You get bitter and resentful that your photos aren't scoring better, you KNOW they are better than that, why can't people see it
You get repeated bad scores, and the reason for this is that you are trying to produce photos you think people will like, rather than the ones you like taking, you can't understand it and begin to doubt your skills, which deepens the resentment
And so on...
Fortunately I went through this entire cycle in about 2 months, I'm back to taking photos I enjoy, I entered one that I know is going to score horribly in the 1-Second-Exposure, but I really liked it, so I'm looking forward to seeing peoples opinions on it either way. |
I think this is an important thing to realize as well.... that many people will get into the mode where they want to impress voters, win ribbons, and change their style of photography to what they think will please others.
It's more important to just become very good at your own particular style... and working to develop a style to begin with. The photos are much more fun that way. |
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03/23/2009 04:17:34 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Very enjoyable.
Also good to see that DPCers will keep you on your toes and correct you where needed! :)
I also agree that the wording of #4 should be changed to read: The quality of images and how well they fit the challenge aren't necessarily synonymous. |
I've changed the wording to #4 so it is not so absolute. |
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03/23/2009 04:22:14 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
thank you for the mentions. I am confused about the math of #2, though... |
Assuming I have my totals right:
1000 challenges to date = 3000 ribbons to date (3 ribbons per challenge)
204,979 entries in the first 1000 challenges
Therefore: 3000 ribbons/204,979 total entries = 68 entries for every 1 ribbon handed out (1.4636%)
Obviously your chances of winning a ribbon are greater in a weekly challenge as opposed to a Free Study, but overall, those would be the odds if everyone had an equal chance at winning.
Message edited by author 2009-03-23 16:30:25. |
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03/23/2009 04:23:00 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
thank you for the mentions. I am confused about the math of #2, though... |
Yes, it should be 1.5% chance, if 1 in 68 photos ribbons. 1 in 100 would be 1% and your odds are better than that. (1.46some, actually)
Your error was getting the .0146 and adding the % sign without moving the decimal to put it per 100 :)
1.46/100=.0146
Message edited by author 2009-03-23 16:25:42. |
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03/23/2009 04:27:01 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by posthumous:
thank you for the mentions. I am confused about the math of #2, though... |
Yes, it should be 1.5% chance, if 1 in 68 photos ribbons. 1 in 100 would be 1% and your odds are better than that. (1.46some, actually)
Your error was getting the .0146 and adding the % sign without moving the decimal to put it per 100 :)
1.46/100=.0146 |
Thanks |
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03/23/2009 04:29:40 PM · #36 |
| And I SUCK at math! lol. I probably would have done the same thing, but when posthumous mentioned it logic clicked in when I saw 1 in 68. But whatever, it's still a very small chance of ribboning, which is the important point :) |
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03/23/2009 06:12:24 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
thank you for the mentions. I am confused about the math of #2, though... |
Originally posted by jeger:
Assuming I have my totals right:
1000 challenges to date = 3000 ribbons to date (3 ribbons per challenge)
204,979 entries in the first 1000 challenges
Therefore: 3000 ribbons/204,979 total entries = 68 entries for every 1 ribbon handed out (1.4636%)
Obviously your chances of winning a ribbon are greater in a weekly challenge as opposed to a Free Study, but overall, those would be the odds if everyone had an equal chance at winning. |
Yeah, but that's just all a hoo-ha theory......
There are so many flies in that ointment....for instance, there are always the Free Studies that have more entries, flora & fauna will always get good participation, Bokeh, B&W ANYTHING, Street Photography....and that actually makes the more obtuse challenge themes easier in theory.
But you STILL have to have a good themed entry, and a good clean image to have a prayer.
And I think having a predilection/predisposition to the subject/theme help, too.
My two ribbons have been in Procrastination and Abandoned......I'm kinda unsure what that says about me.....okay, I'm lying....8>)
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03/23/2009 06:24:44 PM · #38 |
Ribbons mean nothing to me. It gets you on page one but that's about it. I've had entries that I thought would score a 7 and get a 5. I've had an entry that I thought would score a 6 get a 7 !
Although it is quite hard to ribbon, there are a few who know exactly what DPC voters are looking for and have MANY MANY ribbons!
The most valuable thing on DPC is the honest critique you seem the get on the photos. |
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03/24/2009 02:55:23 AM · #39 |
| I have a problem with people who need DPC in order to go out and take photos. But, I try to be polite. |
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03/24/2009 06:56:11 AM · #40 |
Duplicate post. I must learn how to use a computer.
Message edited by author 2009-03-24 08:59:19. |
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03/24/2009 06:58:43 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by jeger:
06. Understanding scoring
In order to score a 6.000, not only do you need to have, at minimum, more 6's than any other vote, but your 7 & 8 & 9 & 10 votes have to outweigh your 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 votes. |
Sorry to pick you up old boy, but you don't need more 6s than any other to get a 6 (or 6+). For example, if you had 100 7s and 99 5s you'd average just over 6. The key is the balance of scores above and below the target score (as you pointed out in the latter part of the sentence).
It's also worth pointing out that although the theoretical average score is 5.5, the actual average score is around 5.2. I think this is because 5 is treated as an 'average' score by most. So for an average photo, 5 feels 'more right' than 6, which feels too generous. When I first started I was amazed that the scale of results was so narrow (around 4 to around 7.5 for an average challenge), effectively using just a third of the actual scale available. So the difference between a 5.5 and a 6.2 is actually huge.
As an experiment I hung a camera out of a car window and snapped a 'Tilted Horizon' entry.  This scored 5.24 and finished approx half way in the challenge. There was almost no effort, no message, and frankly almost no skill. At this point I stopped trying to understand scores. |
Edited to remove the evidence that I suck at speling sumtimes. |
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03/24/2009 08:21:03 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by mikeee:
Sorry to pick you up old boy, but you don't need more 6s than any other to get a 6 (or 6+). For example, if you had 100 7s and 99 5s you'd average just over 6. The key is the balance of scores above and below the target score (as you pointed out in the latter part of the sentence). |
I was speaking from a practical standpoint. Yes it is possible in theory, but if you have a look around the website, I think you'd have a hard time finding a photo with a final score of 6.00+ that has a majority of 5 votes. I'd be interested in knowing if there are any.
Originally posted by mikeee:
It's also worth pointing out that although the theoretical average score is 5.5, the actual avarage score is around 5.2. |
The point I was trying to make here was that if you received 1 vote for every value and divided by the number of votes, that the average would be 5.5 (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)/10 = 5.5)
The real average vote will vary from challenge to challenge. |
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03/24/2009 08:58:18 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by jeger:
I think you'd have a hard time finding a photo with a final score of 6.00+ that has a majority of 5 votes. I'd be interested in knowing if there are any.
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More 6s than 7s, average score 7+ 
More 5s than 6s, average score 6+ 
I'm not trying to be argumentitive, but there are no realistic ways to understand scoring other than a full analysis after the challenge has closed when the intricacies of individual votes becomes apparent.
Cheers |
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03/24/2009 09:09:21 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by mikeee:
Originally posted by jeger:
I think you'd have a hard time finding a photo with a final score of 6.00+ that has a majority of 5 votes. I'd be interested in knowing if there are any.
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More 5s than 6s, average score 6+
Cheers |
Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. |
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04/10/2009 11:11:53 AM · #45 |
| Very well said! Excellent post (both the original and edits by the group). As stated before, great reading for all who participate on this site, not just the noobs. |
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08/28/2009 06:16:47 AM · #46 |
hey jonathan .. wot an excellent read ..
i've gone thru many stages regarding the voters since joining dpc .. now when i get a low score i have another look at the photo and realise why it didnt do as well as i'd hoped .. its usually that it just didnt stack up against the competition or its not something that would appeal to most ppl .. its been a great learning experience ..
and if i do get upset by the low votes i get over it real quick ..
loved the bit about dont sweat the small stuff ..
and the side challenges .. the side challenges have been the place i've had the most fun, met the most ppl & learned the most since being on dpc .. & the real challenges have given me more confidence as a photographer ..
i tell anyone who'll listen about dpc if they show the least interest in my camera or photography .. family, friends, acquaintances and total strangers .. !!
its been the most excellent place to learn and connect with other ppl with a love of photography ..
i hope a lot of ppl read your 10 points and if they're upset by the low voters or low scores that reading your points will help them get over it, not take it so seriously and learn something possibly ..
anyway .. have a great weekend and take care .. :)
Message edited by author 2009-08-28 15:58:39.
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08/28/2009 10:40:01 AM · #47 |
08. Everyone is misinterpreting my photograph, and therefore they are voting wrong
It is your job to communicate your message to the viewer through your photograph, and to a lesser extent, through your title. If the viewers are unable to figure out your message, it is you who have failed. Not all photographs need to have a message; they can be open for interpretation. But if there is a particular message you are trying to communicate, your photograph is the medium in which you communicate.
It is your job to take or make a photo. The photo may very well just be what it is -a photo, an object sans message altogether. Many casual viewers tend to look for a message or some hidden meaning. If it ain't there, they, sure as hell, will conjure one and, bang, you're a genius, a sage or a failure. If, in fact, your photo has some subtext, carries a message or relates an idea, a notion or some subtlety of feeling not physically depicted in the image, you can be sure the majority will fail to see or recognize it. This is normal and no reflection of your abilities.
Message edited by author 2009-08-28 10:41:39. |
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08/28/2009 11:48:21 AM · #48 |
One thing I did not see mentioned is that the voters often vote down something they have seen too many times before. You may have a wonderful image, but guess what? It's already "been done." This can sting a bit, but even though you are new, and you came up with the idea independently, that's the way it goes.
If you can manage the middle of the class in the the voting, your friends are likely blown away by your images. Remenber who you are competing with. You are competing with some really fine talent, from all over the world. A fair number here are either pros, or people selling their images in photostock. This isn't the county fair. So when you do well here. You actually doing really well! I have images that have scored barely 5.0 here, that my neighbors have loved. They think I'm a great photographer. Check my profile, I'm well below average here.
As already mentioned, shoot for yourself. There are only two reasons to shoot for score. One is, that you want practice shooting to meet the desires of others. (Good practice if you want to go pro, and shoot for clients.) The other is ego, to make yourself feel good. That's a tough order here. And when you do win, all you get is a little bunch of colored pixels and your image on the front page for a few days. For that I'd enter the county fair, or some such. The ribbons are real, your neighbors will know, and best of all sometimes it comes with money or prizes. Plus it's not like we will really respect you when you win... ;-) |
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08/28/2009 11:55:02 AM · #49 |
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08/28/2009 12:21:10 PM · #50 |
| Hey what a great read. Here is what I have learned shoot for YOURSELF and then you will be HAPPY. |
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