Avoiding Trolls Suggestion! - DPChallenge Forums

08/21/2009 11:45:15 AM · #151

Originally posted by Steef:

I know.. I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't... If I have a technical reason why I didn't care for the photograph and I can offer a suggestion to have improved it, then don't get me wrong, I'm not going to withhold that out of spite.. I will say it.. But, sometimes I just think it sucks and honesty is the best policy.. I guess I would want someone to tell me if they thought my idea was a stinker and that was basically their reason for giving me a 1-3... or even any vote below a 10..:-)

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

08/21/2009 11:48:24 AM · #152

actually, that was a big ole lie I just told.....

I don't really care to be honest if someone simply didn't care for my photo because of their personal taste.. I mean, that's ok.. Not everyone has to "love" what I "love".. lol.. So, I wouldn't want to get a comment like that, because I don't care.. It's not going to change what I would do the next time.. hmmmmmmmmm.. what to do, what to do..

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

08/21/2009 12:11:32 PM · #153

do you really give a 1 or 2 just because it doesn't work for you? This sounds accusing -- it's not, it's curiosity. This might be one of the reasons I'm not understanding 1s and 2s. When I vote, I'm voting on the technicals as well as whether I like it. It's the two combined that makes the score. That's why I can't understand beautifully executed photos receiving a 1 or 2. But if some people vote strictly on whether they like it or not, that would make low scores so much more understandable. (that's why I gave the green apple a 7 -- because technically it was still a very good photo. I wanted to give it a 2 because I'm so tired of the shot, but it didn't seem fair--photographically, it was a very good photo.)

Message edited by author 2009-08-21 12:14:02.

Steef

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM

08/21/2009 12:16:02 PM · #154

Originally posted by vawendy:

i think the underlying idea is it's an exercise in futility to try to understand why anyone votes in any fashion. we're all different and have different styles of voting. pictures will appeal to each of us differently, it's just our nature. i very rarely ever give anything lower than a 4, and i typically have 3 to 5 10's per challenge. not because they are perfect images, just because i like them the best and would really like to see them on the front page.

like was said earlier, it's not voters who give the occasional low vote who are the problem, it's the "trolls"

K3Master

Pentax K-3

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

08/21/2009 12:45:56 PM · #155

Originally posted by kandykarml:

Originally posted by vawendy:
Although, if they'd just comment on the photos, we wouldn't need insight :P

I wish that it were that simple Wendy... I agree with you 99.9% of the time, but truth be told, no matter what, people dislike getting a low score and even if a comment is given I would be willing to bet that the photographer receiving it will still find a reason to complain when all is said and done..

But, since this reason alone seems to be the ALL ENDING to the troll issue, then I purpose that from this point forward, for every 1 2 or 3 I give, I will also give a comment.. NOW, my comment may simply be, this just didn't work for me, or, I can't see how this meets the challenge or something along those lines and I don't want to hear one single complaint that my comment "BOO HOO, IT DIDN'T HELP ME"... I've clearly stated, the reason I don't comment sometimes is because I have no way of helping the person who submitted this image.. But, I'll see if this experient works.. Not that I think only one person will make a difference but we gotta start somewhere.. :-)

I already tried this experiment once, albeit on a single challenge. Here are the results I got:

1. A good deal of PMs telling me why my vote was crap and why I never should have given it.

2. A huge number of comments not marked helpful. Way more than the usual ratio. WAY MORE.

3. Outside of those, complete and absolute silence. I think ONE person thanked me for explaining my vote. That was it.

So, good luck with your experiment. I wouldn't hope for too much though. If there's one thing that the populace knows how to do here, it's bitch and whine under the guise of "wanting to improve things", but when someone actually takes the time to put some effort into trying out some of the suggestions, they quickly find that it's brick wall after brick wall in front of them.

Message edited by author 2009-08-21 12:47:23.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

08/21/2009 01:05:37 PM · #156

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by kandykarml:

Originally posted by vawendy:
Although, if they'd just comment on the photos, we wouldn't need insight :P

I wish that it were that simple Wendy... I agree with you 99.9% of the time, but truth be told, no matter what, people dislike getting a low score and even if a comment is given I would be willing to bet that the photographer receiving it will still find a reason to complain when all is said and done..

But, since this reason alone seems to be the ALL ENDING to the troll issue, then I purpose that from this point forward, for every 1 2 or 3 I give, I will also give a comment.. NOW, my comment may simply be, this just didn't work for me, or, I can't see how this meets the challenge or something along those lines and I don't want to hear one single complaint that my comment "BOO HOO, IT DIDN'T HELP ME"... I've clearly stated, the reason I don't comment sometimes is because I have no way of helping the person who submitted this image.. But, I'll see if this experient works.. Not that I think only one person will make a difference but we gotta start somewhere.. :-)

I already tried this experiment once, albeit on a single challenge. Here are the results I got:

1. A good deal of PMs telling me why my vote was crap and why I never should have given it.

2. A huge number of comments not marked helpful. Way more than the usual ratio. WAY MORE.

3. Outside of those, complete and absolute silence. I think ONE person thanked me for explaining my vote. That was it.

So, good luck with your experiment. I wouldn't hope for too much though. If there's one thing that the populace knows how to do here, it's bitch and whine under the guise of "wanting to improve things", but when someone actually takes the time to put some effort into trying out some of the suggestions, they quickly find that it's brick wall after brick wall in front of them.

You're right.

Yo_spiff just pointed out to me that he started thanking the people who make critical comments. I'm appreciating the critical comments so much more than I did when I first started. I'm going to take his suggestion and thank the people who bothered to tell me what didn't work with the photo. I'm lousy at judging my own work--I see what I like and am completely blind to the fact that I have a tv antennae sticking out of someone's ear. I also can't really tell if I've over sharpened or that there's aliasing. Even the "it just doesn't work for me" tells me something.

So jump on the bandwagon, people! Thank people for their critical comments!

Yo_Spiff

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

08/21/2009 01:08:19 PM · #157

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

1. A good deal of PMs telling me why my vote was crap and why I never should have given it.

I leave as many critical comments as anyone else and have never gotten one of those nasty PM's. May just be the luck of the draw...

K3Master

Pentax K-3

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

08/21/2009 01:10:08 PM · #158

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:
1. A good deal of PMs telling me why my vote was crap and why I never should have given it.

I leave as many critical comments as anyone else and have never gotten one of those nasty PM's. May just be the luck of the draw...

It's not just critical comments, it's critical comments that have, "I gave this a 1/2/3, because:" critical comments. Do you do that?

ETA: I just wanted to point out that my point wasn't to try and get rid of critical commenting in any way. Just that the reason for this thread, to begin with, was this unrealistic and unsubstantiated claim that people WANT low votes explained, but when put into practice, it tends not to work like the people that keep shouting for it would like to believe it would.

Message edited by author 2009-08-21 13:25:12.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

08/21/2009 01:38:18 PM · #159

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

It's not just critical comments, it's critical comments that have, "I gave this a 1/2/3, because:" critical comments. Do you do that?

OIC. I may suggest I gave it a low vote, but no, I don't usually say what that low vote was. Occasionally I will comment why I had to leave a neutral vote of 5.

Carlo21

08/21/2009 01:55:22 PM · #160

How about the idea of posting the users name to the vote given?

Example:

In the example I want to see who left me a 2 score for my image. I would then select the vote I would like to see in the "Voting breakdown" section

. When selected it would then show the user that scored the image a 2.

What do you think?

Bebe

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/21/2009 02:01:02 PM · #161

Originally posted by Carlo21:

Why on earth would you want to do that? Why would anyone who gave out 1's and 2's want to get whiny pm's from everyone who received a low mark? What could this possibly accomplish besides making everyone just vote higher across the board? (and then people would whine about 3's & 4's, or 5's and 6's)

Carlo21

08/21/2009 02:15:33 PM · #162

Perhaps it would bridge the gap between users who are angry that they received a low vote and someone that voted low. This could solve all of DPC's trolling issues! On the positive side you could receive many positive pm's!

PS: I never stated that I "want to do that". Just an idea that was presented in the forum.

Originally posted by Bebe:

Originally posted by Carlo21:
How about the idea of posting the users name to the vote given?

Example:

In the example I want to see who left me a 2 score for my image. I would then select the vote I would like to see in the "Voting breakdown" section . When selected it would then show the user that scored the image a 2.

What do you think?

Why on earth would you want to do that? Why would anyone who gave out 1's and 2's want to get whiny pm's from everyone who received a low mark? What could this possibly accomplish besides making everyone just vote higher across the board? (and then people would whine about 3's & 4's, or 5's and 6's)

kingskingdom

Hasselblad Hasselblad H3D

Hasselblad HC 3.5-4.5/50-110 mm

08/21/2009 02:24:02 PM · #163

The vast majority of voters vote fairly. Yes we all have different opinions and preferences for giving one photo a higher or lower score than another. Similarly some voters tend to vote at the top end of the scale and some mark slightly harder using the bottom end.

However, it's the very small minority of sad cheats that are spoiling the race for the rest of us. For some reason they open a second/third account to giving everyone a 1, 2, or 3, and saving a 10 for themselves. These people care clearly deluded and have far too much time on their hands. It's a virtual ribbon afterall, just imagine how much trolling would happen if there was cash at stake!

So the question is how do we stop the cheats without impacting the vast majority of voters?

1. Vote scrubber
2. Site council proactively banning the cheats highlighted by the vote scrubber.

But isn't this what exists already. Is it working? When our score drops it is easy to assume it is a troll (I did this this morning on the pink thread!!) however, only site council know the scale of the problem and if their current measures are working. Let's not change the existing solution until we know that it is broken.

Perhaps Site council could give us a clue as to what % of votes normally gets scrubbed and how many people get warnings/caught. I bet it is a very tiny percentage.

Either way I will continue blame the trolls for my low scores ;-)

K3Master

Pentax K-3

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

08/21/2009 02:43:01 PM · #164

Originally posted by kingskingdom:

Either way I will continue blame the trolls for my low scores ;-)

I know this is tongue-in-cheek, but you do touch on the reality of a lot of participants that SERIOUSLY pretty much only blame their lower scores on troll voters, because, you know, their photography can't possibly be bad :D

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

08/21/2009 03:02:09 PM · #165

Originally posted by vawendy:

I give 1 or 2's for photo's that are in my opinion "crap"... That could be for any reason.. It could be for technical reason, artistic reasons, personal taste reasons, the list can go on & on.. But, it doesn't matter why I think it's crap, because obviously SOMEONE thought it was worthy and they entered it into a challenge.. So, just because in my opinion it wasn't all that fantastic doesn't mean other's will feel the same way.. Case in point, these two images...

1=6, 2=10, 3=23... In my opinion, this was brilliant and beautiful.. Now should I consider all the people who voted this one low trolls.. Because they differed from how I felt about it.. Of course not..

1=4, 2=6, 3=15.... Again, another brilliant image.. I happen to be one of the 10's on this...

So, my reasons for giving an image a 1 or a 2 are unexplainable I guess.. Since my way of voting differs from yours, I won't ever be able to get you to understand why I give out a 1 or a 2 since you seem to feel it's NOT ever a deservable score..

I guess what I'm trying to say is this...
You don't have to understand 1's & 2's as I or anyone else understands them.. This is not a cookie cutter process and it's different to every single one of us.. I say, continue to vote how you feel you want to vote.. But know this, the way YOU may be doing it, might be considered the WRONG way to someone else.. So, you have to also understand and accept that the way others vote may be considered wrong to you too..

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/21/2009 04:05:42 PM · #166

Originally posted by kandykarml:

I guess what I'm trying to say is this...
You don't have to understand 1's & 2's as I or anyone else understands them.. This is not a cookie cutter process and it's different to every single one of us.. I say, continue to vote how you feel you want to vote.. But know this, the way YOU may be doing it, might be considered the WRONG way to someone else.. So, you have to also understand and accept that the way others vote may be considered wrong to you too..

I understand everything you're saying, and it all makes sense, BUT... Neither of those images is a good example for this thread because it is obvious why some people have voted them down. Even the makers understand this. A lot of my images, that I think are excellent images, get horrible scores and I know exactly why too: I have one of them in the pink challenge right now.

No, this thread is more oriented towards high-scoring images that get peppoered with what some people consider to be gratuitous low votes...

R.