| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/20/2009 02:08:39 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I don't understand this *need* some people have to hold us all accountable for our low votes, I really don't... It seems absurd to me.
R. |
This is exactly where I'm at.. What's this all about.. if you realize they may not & most likely have nothing informational about your photo to say and their low vote had very little impact on your score, then why all the fuss... |
At least for me, it's not about accountability or the score (as I said several other times during this thread). I could care less if I finished dead last or first, I want to improve my photography. But I guess I'm nieve in assuming that the other members of the forum would actually take interest in other members and use the *proposed* mandatory commenting as a vehicle to do that.
- Alex
|
|
|
|
08/20/2009 02:11:04 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I don't understand this *need* some people have to hold us all accountable for our low votes, I really don't... It seems absurd to me.
Let me put it this way: if you think we have a trolling problem NOW, with people throwing out undeserved low votes just to mess with the system, imagine how much "fun" these trolls are gonna have when they realize they can deliberately enter the worst possible dreck into the challenges, totally DNMC pieces of utterly out-of-focus compositional junk, and force every conscientious voter to write a comment on same....; the only ones spared would be the *anti-trolls*, the ones who refuse to give votes lower than 3....
And don't think it wouldn't happen, LOL.
R. |
And it cost you, what, 15 seconds to say "This doesn't appear that you put much effort into this entry" or "Blurry picture" in the comment box?
- Alex
|
|
|
|
08/20/2009 02:15:28 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by Alex_Europa:
And it cost you, what, 15 seconds to say "This doesn't appear that you put much effort into this entry" |
Be careful with a comment like that. I have received such a comment on an entry that took a lot of effort and a special trip out to photograph it. It was one of the very few comments that I have taken offense at. You can't always tell how much effort it really took.
Sorry for the rant. I now return you to our regularly scheduled dead-horse topic.
Message edited by author 2009-08-20 14:16:46. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 02:22:59 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
Just disable viewing of your score during voting and the trolls have no power over you. I disabled it on my account a long time ago. It's like waiting for film to develop. Fun! I'd much rather read the comments as they come in. |
This is great advice...advice I just followed. I'd forgotten that this is an option...thanks!
- Alex
|
|
|
|
08/20/2009 02:24:50 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by Alex_Europa:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I don't understand this *need* some people have to hold us all accountable for our low votes, I really don't... It seems absurd to me.
Let me put it this way: if you think we have a trolling problem NOW, with people throwing out undeserved low votes just to mess with the system, imagine how much "fun" these trolls are gonna have when they realize they can deliberately enter the worst possible dreck into the challenges, totally DNMC pieces of utterly out-of-focus compositional junk, and force every conscientious voter to write a comment on same....; the only ones spared would be the *anti-trolls*, the ones who refuse to give votes lower than 3....
And don't think it wouldn't happen, LOL.
R. |
And it cost you, what, 15 seconds to say "This doesn't appear that you put much effort into this entry" or "Blurry picture" in the comment box?
- Alex |
And what if that person put a tremendous amount of effort into their photo, but their style is simply not one you agree with? That doesn't help them in any way.
What if the person's photo is blurry on purpose? Again, you're not helping.
Commenting, DURING a challenge, shouldn't be about helping people, because due to the nature of the challenges, you don't know anything about that photo except what you can see and feel. Commenting during a challenge should be about reaction, and will by nature be generally subjective or objective in a blind and unmeaningful way. Voting is what will be helpful, not individually, but as a whole. The ability to follow along, vote by vote, is, quite frankly, a disservice to the site. A very popular disservice, but a disservice nonetheless. All it does is sow resentment, 'troll tracking', and whining.
If you are truly, TRULY interested in improving your photography and/or your challenge entry scoring, then there are a few far stronger techniques you can use in order to do so, that will actually work and help you improve. Some of which have been sourced in this very thread.
1. Start doing more of your own commenting. Not just on challenge entries, but on photos in galleries and portfolios that have photographer comments on them. Read these, comment about how you think the photo succeeded or failed to reach what the photographer was going for, that kind of thing.
2. Ask questions in the forums. Put your work up for critique and ask for opinions. Be honest with yourself and learn the ability to be objective with your own work (This can be very, very difficult). Use the answers you get to re-shoot, re-work, re-process, or re-think your work.
3. Read. Look up techniques and tutorials. Learn, learn, learn, and never stop.
If you engage in these activities, you'll soon learn that the last thing you need are comments from people that scored your photo lower than some arbitrary number. You'll learn that you learn more from being pro-active, instead of waiting for an imaginary source of 'help' that simply isn't there.
Most of all, you might actually have more fun, and find yourself less disappointed, in the long run. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 02:46:23 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Be honest with yourself and learn the ability to be objective with your own work (This can be very, very difficult). |
One good way I have found of doing this is to list in my pre-challenge notes the anticipated critiques I will receive during the challenge. I call it "DPC Bingo". Every time someone leaves one of the predicted critiques, I fill a square on my virtual bingo card. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 02:46:52 PM · #107 |
You'd think that, by now, most of us would Know what to expect when entering a challenge here: Some good votes, some bad votes, some that consider 3 as an average score, some consider 10's only for the greatest images in the history of photography while others consider them for best in the challenge itself. The DNMC Police Squad votes 1's. And there will never be enough comments.
This is the field, with all the individual variations, and it is level for all entrants.
So, knowing this in advance, as we do, we then choose to enter or not. If so, we get what we get. Trying to force rules and mandatory voting/commenting practices so that we get what we want is odd, and it will never work anyway.
When one of my images does not do well, I usually get at least one or two comments giving me some idea why -- even if the comments were not from the 1 voters.
Think about it in reverse: what if the 1 voters wanted Mandatory Justification/Comments for every 10 vote (justify why this is among the greatest images in the history of photography!) in order to cast a 10 vote. Would we get more comments, or just people posting 9's instead of 10s, and having even lower resolution on voting scales? Follow the logic forward, keep applying the constraints, and we end up with binary voting (like it, don't like it).
And, as most entries get only 150-200 total votes anyway, things that discourage voting are not that helpful.
It really is a game, these scores. If the scores are the purpose and reason you photograph, well, you may be missing the whole point of the thing. If you enjoy your photography and also like to see what others think now and again, you'll enjoy this site a lot more.
"Why So Serious?"
Message edited by author 2009-08-20 15:02:51. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 02:51:49 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
And what if that person put a tremendous amount of effort into their photo, but their style is simply not one you agree with? That doesn't help them in any way.
What if the person's photo is blurry on purpose? Again, you're not helping.
Commenting, DURING a challenge, shouldn't be about helping people, because due to the nature of the challenges, you don't know anything about that photo except what you can see and feel. Commenting during a challenge should be about reaction, and will by nature be generally subjective or objective in a blind and unmeaningful way. Voting is what will be helpful, not individually, but as a whole. The ability to follow along, vote by vote, is, quite frankly, a disservice to the site. A very popular disservice, but a disservice nonetheless. All it does is sow resentment, 'troll tracking', and whining.
If you are truly, TRULY interested in improving your photography and/or your challenge entry scoring, then there are a few far stronger techniques you can use in order to do so, that will actually work and help you improve. Some of which have been sourced in this very thread.
1. Start doing more of your own commenting. Not just on challenge entries, but on photos in galleries and portfolios that have photographer comments on them. Read these, comment about how you think the photo succeeded or failed to reach what the photographer was going for, that kind of thing.
2. Ask questions in the forums. Put your work up for critique and ask for opinions. Be honest with yourself and learn the ability to be objective with your own work (This can be very, very difficult). Use the answers you get to re-shoot, re-work, re-process, or re-think your work.
3. Read. Look up techniques and tutorials. Learn, learn, learn, and never stop.
If you engage in these activities, you'll soon learn that the last thing you need are comments from people that scored your photo lower than some arbitrary number. You'll learn that you learn more from being pro-active, instead of waiting for an imaginary source of 'help' that simply isn't there.
Most of all, you might actually have more fun, and find yourself less disappointed, in the long run. |
There is an old joke about driving: Everyone who drives faster than you is an idiot, everyone who drives slower than you is a moron.
Seems like it applies here, too: everyone who votes high is "right-minded" "fair-minded" etc. and everyone who votes low is a troll or pinhead. Everyone's idea of high/low is different. Seems like we need to calibrate ourselves as well as our monitors, eh?
Oh, and bam-wow there, chopper :-)
Message edited by author 2009-08-20 14:52:52. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 02:53:04 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Be honest with yourself and learn the ability to be objective with your own work (This can be very, very difficult). |
One good way I have found of doing this is to list in my pre-challenge notes the anticipated critiques I will receive during the challenge. I call it "DPC Bingo". Every time someone leaves one of the predicted critiques, I fill a square on my virtual bingo card. |
That actually kind of sounds like fun. lol |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 02:55:18 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by chromeydome:
There is an old joke about driving: Everyone who drives faster than you is an idiot, everyone who drives slower than you is a moron.
Seems like it applies here, too: everyone who votes high is "right-minded" "fair-minded" etc. and everyone who votes low is a troll or pinhead. Everyone's idea of high/low is different. Seems like we need to calibrate ourselves as well as our monitors, eh?
Oh, and bam-wow there, chopper :-) |
There are an awful lot of people on DPC that could use a good calibration :D
don't chopper me, chopper! ;D (taken from Moxy Fruvous and "don't buddy me, buddy".) |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 03:08:27 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by chromeydome:
There is an old joke about driving: Everyone who drives faster than you is an idiot, everyone who drives slower than you is a moron.
Seems like it applies here, too: everyone who votes high is "right-minded" "fair-minded" etc. and everyone who votes low is a troll or pinhead. Everyone's idea of high/low is different. Seems like we need to calibrate ourselves as well as our monitors, eh?
Oh, and bam-wow there, chopper :-) |
There are an awful lot of people on DPC that could use a good calibration :D
don't chopper me, chopper! ;D (taken from Moxy Fruvous and "don't buddy me, buddy".) |
Yea--once we get everyone here voting exactly the same way, we can then go and get everyone on the road to drive at the same speed as us! Equal chance of success :-) |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 11:10:24 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by Alex_Europa:
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I don't understand this *need* some people have to hold us all accountable for our low votes, I really don't... It seems absurd to me.
R. |
This is exactly where I'm at.. What's this all about.. if you realize they may not & most likely have nothing informational about your photo to say and their low vote had very little impact on your score, then why all the fuss... |
At least for me, it's not about accountability or the score (as I said several other times during this thread). I could care less if I finished dead last or first, I want to improve my photography. But I guess I'm nieve in assuming that the other members of the forum would actually take interest in other members and use the *proposed* mandatory commenting as a vehicle to do that.
- Alex |
Kay, Alex.......As I said previously in this post... I sometimes give a low vote.. BUT, I don't have the knowledge to explain to someone in an educational way, why I didn't care for their image, so I choose not to make a comment...
You have to consider the possibility that sometimes, just sometimes, a photo is simply not pleasing to a person.. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that image.. It just means that this one particular person didn't care for it.. Now, if I wrote that in the comment box, how would that help you ??? I do take interest in the other members of this site just like I hope they take interest in me.. But, if they ain't got nothing to say, then I ain't gonna make them say it... |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 11:16:18 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Originally posted by Alex_Europa:
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I don't understand this *need* some people have to hold us all accountable for our low votes, I really don't... It seems absurd to me.
R. |
This is exactly where I'm at.. What's this all about.. if you realize they may not & most likely have nothing informational about your photo to say and their low vote had very little impact on your score, then why all the fuss... |
At least for me, it's not about accountability or the score (as I said several other times during this thread). I could care less if I finished dead last or first, I want to improve my photography. But I guess I'm nieve in assuming that the other members of the forum would actually take interest in other members and use the *proposed* mandatory commenting as a vehicle to do that.
- Alex |
Kay, Alex.......As I said previously in this post... I sometimes give a low vote.. BUT, I don't have the knowledge to explain to someone in an educational way, why I didn't care for their image, so I choose not to make a comment...
You have to consider the possibility that sometimes, just sometimes, a photo is simply not pleasing to a person.. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that image.. It just means that this one particular person didn't care for it.. Now, if I wrote that in the comment box, how would that help you ??? I do take interest in the other members of this site just like I hope they take interest in me.. But, if they ain't got nothing to say, then I ain't gonna make them say it... |
I'm sure that's the case.
I'm also sure there are some people who just choose to mess around with people's minds. The current top-scoring photos in the ribbon challenge, plus others, just got hit with 2s. All the good photos suck? |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 02:34:00 AM · #114 |
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Kay, Alex.......As I said previously in this post... I sometimes give a low vote.. BUT, I don't have the knowledge to explain to someone in an educational way, why I didn't care for their image, so I choose not to make a comment...
You have to consider the possibility that sometimes, just sometimes, a photo is simply not pleasing to a person.. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that image.. It just means that this one particular person didn't care for it.. Now, if I wrote that in the comment box, how would that help you ??? I do take interest in the other members of this site just like I hope they take interest in me.. But, if they ain't got nothing to say, then I ain't gonna make them say it... |
Are you talking about 1s and 2s? I don't know, but if a decent picture doesn't touch me or has sujet I don't like I wouldn't give it a 1 or 2. It would, however, not get a 10 either. |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 08:37:04 AM · #115 |
Ok how about this:
If we assume that the vote scrubber removes the votes of people that the site considers are voting unfairly why not have a section in the forums where all those users whose votes were scrubbed, with the exception of those who didnt manage to vote on 20% of the images, are simply listed for all to see. |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 08:57:58 AM · #116 |
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
Ok how about this:
If we assume that the vote scrubber removes the votes of people that the site considers are voting unfairly why not have a section in the forums where all those users whose votes were scrubbed, with the exception of those who didnt manage to vote on 20% of the images, are simply listed for all to see. |
Why, what would it achieve? |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 09:06:22 AM · #117 |
| This is kinda like getting married and the first thing the wife wants to do is adjust some of your bad habits, hunh. I joined DPC because I like itâ€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦.The way it is! |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 09:06:50 AM · #118 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
Ok how about this:
If we assume that the vote scrubber removes the votes of people that the site considers are voting unfairly why not have a section in the forums where all those users whose votes were scrubbed, with the exception of those who didnt manage to vote on 20% of the images, are simply listed for all to see. |
Why, what would it achieve? |
I'm thinking of a general name and shame scheme to shame people into stopping the practice.
|
|
|
|
08/21/2009 09:07:57 AM · #119 |
Originally posted by alans_world:
This is kinda like getting married and the first thing the wife wants to do is adjust some of your bad habits, hunh. I joined DPC because I like itâ€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦.The way it is! |
You like people tactical voting? |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 09:10:57 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
I'm thinking of a general name and shame scheme to shame people into stopping the practice. |
I don't think the main offenders care and I don't think they pariticipate in the forums except to check the score threads to see what they stirred up. |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 09:13:15 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
I'm thinking of a general name and shame scheme to shame people into stopping the practice. |
I don't think the main offenders care and I don't think they pariticipate in the forums except to check the score threads to see what they stirred up. |
I'm sure you're right Steve but it might eliminate some |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 09:13:54 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
Originally posted by alans_world:
This is kinda like getting married and the first thing the wife wants to do is adjust some of your bad habits, hunh. I joined DPC because I like itâ€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦.The way it is! |
You like people tactical voting? |
if a shame section was ever implemented, i'd leave this site in 2 seconds. sure, you might not miss my mediocre photographs, but some of the better people might leave too. low votes happen. i just accept them and move on.
i feel like something like this would be like a 1984 style regime at the site. big brother is watching your votes. ;) |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 09:14:41 AM · #123 |
| The thing here is that if I break the rules and get DQd then it's there for all to see, if I carry out tactical voting and essentially get my votes DQd it's hidden away |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 09:19:40 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by Steef:
i feel like something like this would be like a 1984 style regime at the site. big brother is watching your votes. ;) |
They are watching your votes why do you think some get scrubbed?
Message edited by author 2009-08-21 09:19:55. |
|
|
|
08/21/2009 09:19:46 AM · #125 |
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
The thing here is that if I break the rules and get DQd then it's there for all to see, if I carry out tactical voting and essentially get my votes DQd it's hidden away |
submitting photos isn't anonymous, voting is. they aren't even in the same ballpark... |
|
