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08/06/2009 11:31:44 PM · #376
Thanks Scott. There's some interesting items in that document. It's a huge file (over 1000 pages long)!

Originally posted by SDW:

Here are some of the things people are saying is in the HR3200iH bill. I have not researched all of them so I am not saying they are true or false. I just wanted to post so users could look at the list. It provides the page number of the bill that reference the claim. So you can decide for yourself. At the bottom will be a link to the current HR3200iH bill in consideration.

* Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insured
* Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed
* Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
* Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
* Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
* Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
* Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
* Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
* Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
* Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
* Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
* Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
* Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter
* Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
* Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
* Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
* Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
* Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
* Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
* Page 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
* Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
* Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
* Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
* Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
* Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
* Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
* Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
* Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
* Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
* Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
* Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
* Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
* Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
* Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
* Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
* Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
* Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
* Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
* Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
* Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
* Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
* Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
* Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
* Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
* Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
* Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
* Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
* Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

BILL HR3200iH as of August 6th, 2009.
08/06/2009 11:46:47 PM · #377
Have you ever looked at the farm bill? Complex bills do tend to be fairly long. And of course in all those lines you will find things you disagree with.

If every bill had the sort of money opposing this bill, we would never pass any legislation. And of course big corporations would fine with that. Except the bail out bills. We need those.

The question to my mind is do we need a perfect bill, or if we can't get that we should have nothing, and allow the "Free market" to ration and profit from health insurance? Is the system we have now so good that we should let it run its current course?
08/07/2009 12:05:05 AM · #378
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by karmat:

Just as you are justified (according to you) in feeling that all wealthy people must be like your parents.

It is ironic to me that you come down so hard on your parents for feeling like people like they do (and you feel it is wrong), yet you are the same way, just in reverse.

Do me a favor....you keep jumping to these conclusions based on where YOU want to take them, and misinterpreting what I say. Just read/listen, and take it for what it is and stop extrapolating.

I don't feel that all wealthy people are like that. I feel that there is a large percentage of old money, Main Line, Republican Old Guard out there who act in a very bigoted, elitist way. It's a stereotype because it's real. These people sent their kids to private schools, chose their friends, established clubs and organizations to filter the type of people who were acceptable, and if you haven't lived among this culture, you cannot possibly imagine what it's like.

My father decided at one point that I should learn the value of a dollar, some strange conscience quirk that came out of nowhere, so I was sent to caddy at the same country club where we were members. So there I am, working at the country club alongside the "regular" people who populate this country, and who were there to make their living, so that my father could make a point. I was *NOT* to fraternize with those people because they were "beneath our station". He actually said that out loud, and meant it. Somehow, these people whom I worked beside, for money they needed to live from, that I didn't save for my father's idea that I should learn what it's like to work, weren't good enough for me to be friends with...

You want to tell me I'm too hard on my father because he tried to teach me that I'm better than another man? Let it alone.

I choose who I hang around with based on who they are as people, and how they treat me, not because of where they're from, who their parents were, the color of their skin, or how much money they have.


ok
08/07/2009 02:06:11 AM · #379
Whoa! Someone has some daddy issues. "Death to Pigs!" right? Sorry - I just couldn't take it any more. Get some counseling Jeb. Really.
08/07/2009 06:54:56 AM · #380
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Whoa! Someone has some daddy issues. "Death to Pigs!" right? Sorry - I just couldn't take it any more. Get some counseling Jeb. Really.

Actually, my experiences have helped me to break the cycle in my own family.

My daughter is a wonderful, well rounded, and well-adjusted young woman.

I was pretty much shown what I didn't want in how to be a father.

Some traditions should die out......
08/07/2009 11:01:13 AM · #381
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by karmat:

If I have learned ANYTHING on SC, (and admittedly DPC is a lot less important in the grand scheme of things than the USA), it is that you don't do something that effects a lot of people without first exploring each and every option and trying to troubleshoot and identify all the possible pitfalls and loopholes before it goes live.

Can you say "time-lapse photography" ...? ;-)

Of course, SC was not responsible for that ...

We (the US government) has been "exploring options" (well, except for the last few years) since the first Clinton administration. At what point do you quit fiddling the the settings and just press the shutter-button?


A good summary article about what's really going on:

Republicans Propagating Falsehoods in Attacks on Health-Care Reform

I agree with GeneralE that it's not necessary to wait any longer. Do you have any idea how many Congressional hearings there have been and how many experts have weighed in on this issue? Why don't we relegate it to another study group so it never gets done? Isn't that what this complaint -- "we haven't had enough time" -- is really all about? It's just another tactic to stall this reform, and now that our Congressional representatives have all of August to read the legislation, I hope we won't have to hear this tired refrain from y'all again.
08/07/2009 11:14:24 AM · #382
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:


A good summary article about what's really going on:

Republicans Propagating Falsehoods in Attacks on Health-Care Reform ...

...and a rebuttal by the Republican National Committee.

"The Democrat National Committee (DNC) released a memo late yesterday attacking you as a right-wing extremist.

We saw this sort of vitriolic rhetoric this past April when Democrats smugly dismissed grassroots protests against their out-of-control spending. These Tea Parties were ruthlessly mocked by the liberal elites and the mainstream media.

Now as public support for the Obama Democrats' government-run health care plan unravels, they're using this fear-and-smear tactic to silence ANY American who disagrees with their risky scheme to nationalize one-fifth of our economy and limit your health care choices. It's a page out of their standard playbook of name calling and outright lies to stifle all debate.

Republicans want responsible health care reform that makes health care more affordable and accessible, and keeps you and your doctor in charge of your medical choices -- but we want to get it right and we want to do it without ramming it through Congress on a trumped-up deadline.

Help Republicans fight back against Obama and his political attack dogs' dishonest vitriol and tell them your voice will not be silenced.

Sincerely,

Michael Steele
Chairman, Republican National Committee"

08/07/2009 11:30:37 AM · #383
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

A good summary article about what's really going on:

Republicans Propagating Falsehoods in Attacks on Health-Care Reform


Wow. Another link to some liberal columnist who hates the GOP. It really MUST be true this time. That asshole is stating EXACTLY what the problem will be. I will continue to pat for MY health insurance, as well as take on the burden for those who feel they deserve yet another government handout. That is not the way to administer a healthcare program.

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

I agree with GeneralE that it's not necessary to wait any longer. Do you have any idea how many Congressional hearings there have been and how many experts have weighed in on this issue? Why don't we relegate it to another study group so it never gets done? Isn't that what this complaint -- "we haven't had enough time" -- is really all about? It's just another tactic to stall this reform, and now that our Congressional representatives have all of August to read the legislation, I hope we won't have to hear this tired refrain from y'all again.


OK, it has indeed been in the works for awhile. However, this Obamacare bullsh!t is a very, very bad plan and a poor attempt at slamming a bill through congress without giving any real time for research. His plan sucks, and both parties are beginning to agree on that. This is a piss poor effort on his part to push something through just to check it off his little list of lies promises. There is a solution, and a solution that most of us can come close to agreement with. Further taxing me for your problems is not a solution anymore. If you want to use my dollars for healthcare, stop using my dollars on bullsh!t programs that continue to fail. Focus on repairing some of these failures, and just maybe credibility can be built toward adding more programs. Now is absolutely not the time to make rash decisions that will only serve to further increase our ridiculous level of debt.
08/07/2009 12:02:13 PM · #384
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Republicans want responsible health care reform that makes health care more affordable and accessible, and keeps you and your doctor in charge of your medical choices -- but we want to get it right and we want to do it without ramming it through Congress on a trumped-up deadline.

So why did my health care costs go screaming out of control under their leadership from 2000-2008?

Where was this supposed Republican health care reform then?

Just curious.....
08/07/2009 12:04:26 PM · #385
Originally posted by ericwoo:

There is a solution, and a solution that most of us can come close to agreement with.

Okay....what is it?

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Focus on repairing some of these failures, and just maybe credibility can be built toward adding more programs.

Okay.....how?
08/07/2009 12:12:40 PM · #386
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Michael Steele, RNC:

Republicans want responsible health care reform that makes health care more affordable and accessible, and keeps you and your doctor in charge of your medical choices -- but we want to get it right and we want to do it without ramming it through Congress on a trumped-up deadline.

So why did my health care costs go screaming out of control under their leadership from 2000-2008?

Where was this supposed Republican health care reform then?

Just curious.....

Just to clarify, that statement was posted by me, but is a quote from an article written by Michael Steele. I've adjusted the "Originally posted by" accordingly...
08/07/2009 12:21:14 PM · #387
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Focus on repairing some of these failures, and just maybe credibility can be built toward adding more programs.

Okay.....how?


Have you been reading the thread? Or do you not read posts you don't agree with?
08/07/2009 12:55:02 PM · #388
Originally posted by ericwoo:

Focus on repairing some of these failures, and just maybe credibility can be built toward adding more programs.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Okay.....how?


Originally posted by LoudDog:

Have you been reading the thread? Or do you not read posts you don't agree with?

Well, I have been following along, but mostly what I've heard/seen has been finger pointing and blame assignation, not actual solutions.

If I missed something along that line, I'd surely appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

ETA: How would one know one doesn't agree with a post if they don't read it?????

I may have missed it, but I didn't *NOT* read it because I didn't agree with it! LOL!!!

You'll have to work on that snappy retort thing.....that one fell flat.....8>)

Message edited by author 2009-08-07 12:57:10.
08/07/2009 12:59:07 PM · #389
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Focus on repairing some of these failures, and just maybe credibility can be built toward adding more programs.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Okay.....how?


Originally posted by LoudDog:

Have you been reading the thread? Or do you not read posts you don't agree with?

Well, I have been following along, but mostly what I've heard/seen has been finger pointing and blame assignation, not actual solutions.

If I missed something along that line, I'd surely appreciate being pointed in the right direction.


I fully understand your position now.
08/07/2009 01:04:17 PM · #390
Originally posted by Michael Steele, RNC:

Republicans want responsible health care reform that makes health care more affordable and accessible, and keeps you and your doctor in charge of your medical choices -- but we want to get it right and we want to do it without ramming it through Congress on a trumped-up deadline.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

So why did my health care costs go screaming out of control under their leadership from 2000-2008?

Where was this supposed Republican health care reform then?

Just curious.....

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Just to clarify, that statement was posted by me, but is a quote from an article written by Michael Steele. I've adjusted the "Originally posted by" accordingly...

Clarification duly noted.....and just to further that, I had made mention earlier about how Hilary had started to work on a program back when Bill was in office and this issue is at least a decade old. So how come it *did* get so much worse over the last eight years if the Republicans have a plan?

I know that insurance companies keep making more and more money.....I see the evidence all the time when I drive by the gi-normous office buildings built on prime ground centrally located.......why does this perpetuate?

Taking the private insurance company nightmare out of the picture can't be a bad thing from where I've sat for the past decade and a half or so....
08/07/2009 01:10:03 PM · #391
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Michael Steele, RNC:

Republicans want responsible health care reform that makes health care more affordable and accessible, and keeps you and your doctor in charge of your medical choices -- but we want to get it right and we want to do it without ramming it through Congress on a trumped-up deadline.

So why did my health care costs go screaming out of control under their leadership from 2000-2008?

Where was this supposed Republican health care reform then?

Just curious.....

Just to clarify, that statement was posted by me, but is a quote from an article written by Michael Steele. I've adjusted the "Originally posted by" accordingly...


A good point. Where were they over the last 8 years and what did they do to control skyrocketing costs. Nowhere to be found and did nothing positive that they can claim any high ground. Certainly not moral high ground. Members of the House making claims on the floor that the plan on the table will euthanize the elderly. That's messed up.

My main concern is the massive disinformation campaign and fear tactics I've been hearing in the congressional debates. Let's be honest, it's shameful and doesn't lend itself to anything remotely progressive.

As far as I'm concerned their behavior of the floor, in the media, fear mongering and 8 years of complete inaction on this issue in any way shape or form doesn't give them a single drop of credibility.

Franky, it's embarrassing to watch...even painful. This country has lost it's soul.

The Town Hall Mob

"... And cynical political operators are exploiting that anxiety to further the economic interests of their backers.

Does this sound familiar? It should: it̢۪s a strategy that has played a central role in American politics ever since Richard Nixon realized that he could advance Republican fortunes by appealing to the racial fears of working-class whites."

Message edited by author 2009-08-07 13:43:41.
08/07/2009 03:34:18 PM · #392
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by ericwoo:

There is a solution, and a solution that most of us can come close to agreement with.

Okay....what is it?


I'm almost leaning toward the Wyden_Bennett plan right now. I haven't finished reading it all yet, at least soberly, so I don't want to commit to any sort of bandwagon just yet. But these guys do seem to have some pretty stron ideas.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Focus on repairing some of these failures, and just maybe credibility can be built toward adding more programs.

Okay.....how?


OK, for starters, lets rebuild the welfare system. Let's say you start into the program today, or either you are already part of the program. First of all, you will receive monthly drug tests AND birth control shots. No, you don't have to take either, but if you don't, you don't get shit from the government. Secondly, from today, or whenever you start into the program, you have exactly 5 years of benefits. For 2 years, you get full benefits that you have already qualified for pending the results of your monthly drug test and birth control shot. On year 3, your benefits drop by 25% no matter what your income staus may be. On year 4, your benefits drop 50%, again no matter of income status. On year 5, your benefits drop to 20% of your initial qualification benefit. At the end of year 5, you are on your own. If you have planned well, hopefully you have been gainfully employed for the past 5 years and putting some money aside. If not, fuck off (apologies to the SC for language).

Now let's move to medicaid. I believe that Medicaid should be available to more families than the current salary cut-offs. I am not sure exactly where the cutoff should be, but I do believe that a family, husband/wife and/or kids, should be willing to spend 20% of their income on health insurance. Anything over 20% should be eligible for medicaid.

Social Security- get it out of the government's hands...period. There is no way fo rthe gov't to continue to 'borrow' SS funds and any of us expect to gain those benefits later on one day. Turn it over to a private entity, perhaps the Ford Motor Co. (the only US motor Co. that isn't expecting gov't' funds right now), and let them make smart investments with the money.

Medical litigation- caps are 100% necessary. Limit liability to the lifetime cost of the treatment and actual salary that was affected. Beyond that, you were gpnna be on your own anyways.

There are a million more thoughts in my head, but that's all I have for now. I look forward to the liberal arguments against my ideas. Fire away.
08/07/2009 03:52:25 PM · #393
Originally posted by ericwoo:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by ericwoo:

There is a solution, and a solution that most of us can come close to agreement with.

Okay....what is it?


I'm almost leaning toward the Wyden_Bennett plan right now. I haven't finished reading it all yet, at least soberly, so I don't want to commit to any sort of bandwagon just yet. But these guys do seem to have some pretty stron ideas.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Focus on repairing some of these failures, and just maybe credibility can be built toward adding more programs.

Okay.....how?


OK, for starters, lets rebuild the welfare system. Let's say you start into the program today, or either you are already part of the program. First of all, you will receive monthly drug tests AND birth control shots. No, you don't have to take either, but if you don't, you don't get shit from the government. Secondly, from today, or whenever you start into the program, you have exactly 5 years of benefits. For 2 years, you get full benefits that you have already qualified for pending the results of your monthly drug test and birth control shot. On year 3, your benefits drop by 25% no matter what your income staus may be. On year 4, your benefits drop 50%, again no matter of income status. On year 5, your benefits drop to 20% of your initial qualification benefit. At the end of year 5, you are on your own. If you have planned well, hopefully you have been gainfully employed for the past 5 years and putting some money aside. If not, fuck off (apologies to the SC for language).

Now let's move to medicaid. I believe that Medicaid should be available to more families than the current salary cut-offs. I am not sure exactly where the cutoff should be, but I do believe that a family, husband/wife and/or kids, should be willing to spend 20% of their income on health insurance. Anything over 20% should be eligible for medicaid.

Social Security- get it out of the government's hands...period. There is no way fo rthe gov't to continue to 'borrow' SS funds and any of us expect to gain those benefits later on one day. Turn it over to a private entity, perhaps the Ford Motor Co. (the only US motor Co. that isn't expecting gov't' funds right now), and let them make smart investments with the money.

Medical litigation- caps are 100% necessary. Limit liability to the lifetime cost of the treatment and actual salary that was affected. Beyond that, you were gpnna be on your own anyways.

There are a million more thoughts in my head, but that's all I have for now. I look forward to the liberal arguments against my ideas. Fire away.


Eric, you really don't understand how welfare works now do you? There is already a limit. And it's 2 years. Not 5. No, you don't need to take a drug test, and no there is no manatory birth control. But if you're on welfare and get pregnant, that child will not be covered. You have to agree to that at the sign up. And if you have a drug conviction, you're not eligible at all. You cannot sit back and collect money. You must either go to school at something they approve, look for work 40 hours a week at their facility or do community service. Clinton put these reforms into place. Yes, a liberal did that. So, that program should more than meet your expectations since it's even less generous than you state you want. And btw - the money for a family of 3 is $422 per month.

As for medicaid. The people that get medicaid are already so poor (go check the income limits), that to take 20% of their income would put them on the streets.

As for caps, I agree with you there.
08/07/2009 05:16:25 PM · #394
Um, Kelli, don't call someone else out unless you are sure of your facts.

Disclaimer: Only the above sentence is directed SPECIFICALLY at Kelli, so if anyone else feels offended at my condescending tone, please feel free to call me out.

Welfare encompasses much more than just AFDC (TANF), in my opinion, which seems to be what you are referring to. And President Clinton's overhaul restricted the eligibility to 5 years in a lifetime, not 2. Edit to add: This provision can be shortened by the state, and up to 20% of cases can be exempted from the 5 year policy as well. Which means that if 80% of the folks are using it honestly, you can still have 20% scammers milking the system.

Data found here

Now which lifetime are we referring to? Theoretically it is the adult in charge of a child - pass the child around in an extended family, and you can milk that benefit for the entire minority of the child (18 years, if that lost you ).

Also, benefits vary according to the cost of living, so you can't state a set amount for a set family size. For instance, in New Mexico, a family of 3 would receive at most $389, while in Texas a family of 3 (1 adult) would be eligible for $244. With 2 adults, they would receive $267. And TANF can come with a host of other, non-cash benefits not available to a normal working family, such as subsidized housing, childcare, tuition assistance, etc.

I would also consider Food Stamps, which is independent of TANF, to be welfare. And quite a lot of Social Security, as it is paid out to folks that have never paid in, and will never pay in. Such as the 35 year old woman that lived down the street from my grandmother when i was in high school. They lived in government funded housing (yet another form of welfare). My grandmother was living on $309 a month. The woman that lived down the street, while not a genius, was certainly capable of living on her own, and of holding at the very least a simple job. But she had never worked a day in her life. And she received more than twice as much in Social Security as my grandmother, the widow of a veteran, an amputee since childhood, and who had worked most of her adult life. This other woman's child lived with her parents (as her "brother"), and i'm sure they received benefits for him as well. Welfare? Absolutely!

OR the two children of a friend of mine. Their mother (divorced from their father and with a third child still in infancy) was killed when they were both pre-teens. She had worked maybe a total of 5 years in her lifetime, and not in high paying jobs. Each of those children receive several hundred dollars a month from their mother's benefit. Do i begrudge them the money? Not really, though both fathers are very capable of supporting the kids without it. Do i consider it welfare? Absolutely.

Message edited by author 2009-08-08 14:27:22.
08/07/2009 06:56:12 PM · #395
Originally posted by Kelli:

Eric, you really don't understand how welfare works now do you?


Kelli, please allow me to refer you to shamrock's reply. The absolute, unadulterated, basic version of welfare is as you describe it. Then when you add to it all the perks that sham elaborated on, you have a system that is far beyond f|_|cked up. You, my dear, appear to have no idea how it works out in the real world. If it worked like it does in your idealistic world, many of us would not have any issues with adding another government program. The problem lies in the fact that your liberal government has created a generation of indigents that rely solely on what they can get for nothing...dare I again call them social parasites? Until your liberals can design a system that works in real life like they pretend it work on paper, I will resist and argue against anymore added government giveaways. By the way, I really, REALLY hate this stupid cash-for-clunkers program that is borrowing from your childrens' future so you can have a nicer car to ride in today. W.....T....F?!?!?!? But, who really gives a sh!t...they can surely pay it all off later...right?

ETA: Any form of government support is a sort of welfare; an handout per se if you have no means of contribution back into the system that supports you. It really doesn't matter if it is the check they receive each month for who-knows-why, the free or nearly-free government housing, food stamps, medicaid, or who-gives-a-sh!t-why, IT ALL ADDS UP TO A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT OF FREEBIES. Give me that same amount of government t!t freebies and I'll gladly contribute that amount of my salary in additional taxes so you can have a little health care plan that allows you to see the doctor whenever your poor little left toe hurts. If I am required to give more, I demand to GET more. How does that not seem fair to you? Just because you fell on hard luck, should I, too, be forced to suffer YOUR burdens? My parents are taking on the same burdens as you. I take care of them myself because they are MY parents...MY family...MY responsibilities. My house payment, my stolen camera gear, my hurting left lower tooth, my desire to constantly take vacations, my want for yet a fourth flat screen for the guestroom...along with another, yes another, PS3, my desire to have a lawn service treat my grass each month, my want for some new wheels on my pickup truck, my craving for the D3x as soon as I can afford it, and everything that the wife and ANY of my family members may desire are all MY responsibility...no added burden to the government or, MORE IMPORTANTLY, the taxpayers (read ME). You take care of yours...I'll take care of mine. Fair enough?

Message edited by author 2009-08-07 19:11:25.
08/07/2009 07:33:47 PM · #396
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Have you ever looked at the farm bill? Complex bills do tend to be fairly long. And of course in all those lines you will find things you disagree with.

If every bill had the sort of money opposing this bill, we would never pass any legislation. And of course big corporations would fine with that. Except the bail out bills. We need those.


I disagree. If every bill was heavily scrutinized then maybe we'd start to see better bills being drawn up in the first place because as you say nothing would get passed if these bills were actually read today. Lobbyists are fine with this, of course. After all it's much easier to include paybacks to bills nobody is going to read. The thing is nobody supports this way of doing business yet we tolerate it when it's our own party doing it. Why is that? Maybe the path to a better government is to denounce corruption at every turn? I'm not saying that this bill or even Obama is corrupt but how would we know if we're not even willing to scrutinize? No man in office no matter how popular should be given carte blanche.

Message edited by author 2009-08-07 19:35:16.
08/07/2009 08:44:54 PM · #397
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Have you ever looked at the farm bill? Complex bills do tend to be fairly long. And of course in all those lines you will find things you disagree with.

If every bill had the sort of money opposing this bill, we would never pass any legislation. And of course big corporations would fine with that. Except the bail out bills. We need those.


Complex bills would not be the problem, if each bill was restricted to a single issue. What i personally have issue with is the bills that get bloated beyond all recognition, because each person that touches it requires their own little personal perk added before they'll agree to vote for it. Sure, there would be a lot more issues requiring a vote, but i bet a lot of the governmental budget bloat would disappear.
08/07/2009 11:23:42 PM · #398
Originally posted by ericwoo:

First of all, you will receive monthly drug tests AND birth control shots.


Sweet!!! Eugenics for poor people!
08/07/2009 11:30:13 PM · #399
P.S. Kind of surprising that people aren't reeling in horror at the idea the government should control reproduction.

I mean... I can barely MAKE an analogy without violating Godwin's Law.
08/08/2009 04:40:05 AM · #400
Originally posted by Mousie:

P.S. Kind of surprising that people aren't reeling in horror at the idea the government should control reproduction.

I mean... I can barely MAKE an analogy without violating Godwin's Law.


I'm already reeling in horror at the behavior of too many people in this thread to worry about something else to reel in horror about. I have to recharge my feelings of horror.
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