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07/24/2009 04:52:02 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
his office has to be able to sort through the various forms and operating policies of over.....are you ready?
600 Different insurance companies!!!!!
How much does that suck????? |
Approximately 30% of the overall cost ... |
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07/27/2009 07:07:31 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
If you can afford the current out of pocket costs. Great. You're probably in a minority. Noone should have to consider a choice between getting medical help or having shelter or having any other necessity of life. |
I work my ass off to make sure I have EVERYTHING I need. Why shouldn't you and/or everyone else do the same? To hell with all this "for the good of fellow man" bullshit up until I finally get to be a fellow man. I spend enough on shit I don't use or need already. If you want, and especially if you feel like you need it, you damn well better be able to cover it yourself. I do.
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
If you think noone get's turned away for not having a means to pay then I think you're fooling yourself. Sure, a hospital will accept you if you have no insurance but will think twice if you have no other means of paying the bill. The hospital is there to make a profit. |
No hospital in this country that is even partially funded by the government, period, can deny you emergency care when there is a threat to life or limb. Now, are they going to take you in and do exploratory knee surgery because you hurt a little. No. That's where YOU get to pick up the bill...on your own.
Why do I owe you healthcare?
Message edited by author 2009-07-27 07:08:04. |
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07/27/2009 08:02:13 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
If you want, and especially if you feel like you need it, you damn well better be able to cover it yourself. I do.
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
If you think noone get's turned away for not having a means to pay then I think you're fooling yourself. Sure, a hospital will accept you if you have no insurance but will think twice if you have no other means of paying the bill. The hospital is there to make a profit. |
No hospital in this country that is even partially funded by the government, period, can deny you emergency care when there is a threat to life or limb. Now, are they going to take you in and do exploratory knee surgery because you hurt a little. No. That's where YOU get to pick up the bill...on your own.
Why do I owe you healthcare? |
The tone of your first few posts were pretty cruel now you've slid into a zone of insensitivity.
There are plenty of very hard working people out there that simply cannot afford the soaring costs of health care. They just don't earn enough and I think a fuck'em attitude frankly stinks. These are your neighbors, people who wash your dishes at the Diner and work at the small shops, tend Bar, play music at weddings, craftsmen, laborers...folks that serve YOU. The industry you work in pays very, very well and you're fortunate for that but keep in mind that there are many of us that work as hard as you and I'd bet harder in many cases and don't get paid a fraction of what Nurses make, for the same hours, equivalent amounts of education and stress. There's also PLENTY of fraud in medical billing and coding that goes into your pocket being part of the system. I can't afford that any longer.
God forbid you ever get struck by a natural disaster...something that doesn't affect them or me. How would you feel if I or the government turned our backs and told you to screw off, as you're doing now?
Think about all people who contributed time money and physically went down south to help people rebuild their lives after Katrina. That's what makes this country great and separates us from wild animals. Not the crap you're spewing.
Get a heart.
You've mentioned emergency care. Great BUT it ends after the emergency and it costs the system and an incredible amount of money. It also happens to stink as a way of getting care. You don't think that cost is included in your premiums? Do emergency rooms take care of Cancer related problems, MRI's, failing eyesight, long term issues etc? No they don't.
Message edited by author 2009-07-27 09:39:03. |
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07/27/2009 12:02:13 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
It's astounding that there are still people who question Obama's citizenship even after it's been repeatedly proven. |
Not very astounding to me. When you pull up a dupe birth certificate and insist:
"We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. "
I can see where some people will be disappointed as this is NOT an original birth certificate. Obviously the original no longer exists or Obama didn't want a copy with more information made public. Now carefully note that I did not say the document in the photos is not an OFFICIAL birth certificate. I appears to be an OFFICIAL birth certificate that shows Obama meets citizenship and age requirements to be President of the US. If you're this astounded at political wrangling in the US, you're a very lucky person. You'll always have the advantage of novel thinking in any situation. :) |
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07/27/2009 12:16:09 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Get a heart.
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I've got the perfect solution to help assure that everyone in the US gets about the same health care. All the US citizens should contact their reps and many should visit DC. Hopefully about 5 million of us to show importance. Insist on one amendment on any health care package passed: ALL members and employees of the US Federal Government must be covered by the approved health care bill.
No more special care for Senators, Representives, and other Special people. Everybody gets the same. You'll be surprised how quickly things slow down and the same people trying to rush the issue through now will want things done properly. As it is now, millions of dollars per week are showering down on Washington to motivate lawmakers to ram-rod the legislation through in a form acceptable to insurance and pharma.
I'm sure this is how it was done in Canada and England, right? The big wheels get the same as the lowest member of society? |
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07/27/2009 02:46:40 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
ALL members and employees of the US Federal Government must be covered by the approved health care bill.
No more special care for Senators, Representives, and other Special people. Everybody gets the same. |
I think Obama has mentioned several times that the proposed "government option" would be essentially the same plan available to Members of Congress and covered Federal employees ... I think that's exactly the point. |
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07/27/2009 04:32:12 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
... There are plenty of very hard working people out there that simply cannot afford the soaring costs of health care. They just don't earn enough and I think a fuck'em attitude frankly stinks. These are your neighbors, people who wash your dishes at the Diner and work at the small shops, tend Bar, play music at weddings, craftsmen, laborers...folks that serve YOU. The industry you work in pays very, very well and you're fortunate for that but keep in mind that there are many of us that work as hard as you and I'd bet harder in many cases and don't get paid a fraction of what Nurses make, for the same hours, equivalent amounts of education and stress. There's also PLENTY of fraud in medical billing and coding that goes into your pocket being part of the system. I can't afford that any longer. ... |
Sounds like you're making two points here:
1) Those that obtain higher education and earn a piece of success are obligated to pay for those whose rise on the ladder of success has fallen short.
2) You think nurses are overpaid for the work they do.
I disagree with your points.
I know personally (a family member) that to qualify as a nurse a substantial amount of education and very hard work go into being successful at it. Why do you think that just about any major city has numerous openings for qualified nursing personnel? Because it's hard work and it takes a dedicated person to do the job.
BTW - I noted your emphasized use of the word 'plenty' while mentioning assumed fraud in medical billingand coding...do you have any hard evidence of this "fraud", and why do you think switching to a federalized medical program is going to make it any better? If anything, it could go the other way and become a bureaucratic nightmare. |
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07/27/2009 04:47:05 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
If anything, it could go the other way and become a bureaucratic nightmare. |
Doesn't having to deal with up to 600 insurance companies -- each with their own claim forms and procedure codes -- qualify as "bureaucratic nightmare?" As I understand it, that alone accounts for about 30% of a medical practice's overhead costs. |
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07/27/2009 05:29:37 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I think Obama has mentioned several times that the proposed "government option" would be essentially the same plan available to Members of Congress and covered Federal employees ... I think that's exactly the point. |
Unfortunately what was said and the truth are two very different things. |
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07/27/2009 06:23:58 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
Unfortunately what was said and the truth are two very different things. |
Like that stuff we've been hearing the past few years about how unregulated free markets and lining the pockets of the rich with money borrowed from our grandkids is the path to economic salvation and prosperity for all? |
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07/27/2009 06:56:58 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
... There are plenty of very hard working people out there that simply cannot afford the soaring costs of health care. They just don't earn enough and I think a fuck'em attitude frankly stinks. These are your neighbors, people who wash your dishes at the Diner and work at the small shops, tend Bar, play music at weddings, craftsmen, laborers...folks that serve YOU. The industry you work in pays very, very well and you're fortunate for that but keep in mind that there are many of us that work as hard as you and I'd bet harder in many cases and don't get paid a fraction of what Nurses make, for the same hours, equivalent amounts of education and stress. There's also PLENTY of fraud in medical billing and coding that goes into your pocket being part of the system. I can't afford that any longer. ... |
Sounds like you're making two points here:
1) Those that obtain higher education and earn a piece of success are obligated to pay for those whose rise on the ladder of success has fallen short.
2) You think nurses are overpaid for the work they do.
I disagree with your points. |
I'm not sure where or how the hell you deducted that but...
I NEVER said overpaid. I said they as many people in the Health Care Industry are paid "very, very well". Well compensated...how's that? My girlfriend is a Nurse and my best friend is a Nurse, my x-girlfriend is a Nurse...I hang with their crews, the Doctors they work with, technicians, the billing dept. etc. Again, they ALL make a good buck, they have decent job security and in the grand scheme of the world and working conditions, I don't worry about them in the least. They're fine.
I don't consider anybody that does not earn well to have "fallen short". Some people do great things with their lives but simply don't make great wages for what they do. Our Health Care system is fucked and radically too expensive. Many people are fortunate enough to work for large companies that can shoulder some of the burden and some people doing the same work just don't have that luxury. My friend Frank owns a small florist, he works his ass off and used to make decent money up until the last 3 years. He's had two heart attacks and his wife is ill. They pay $1800 a month for coverage and they cannot drop their plan because nobody will cover them at this point. How cool is that...(sarcasm)? Did he fail? Has he fallen short OR has the present system we have in place failed?
I believe in a flat tax. I believe that an insane amount of our nations wealth was vacuumed to the Top 12% of our population. God knows our retirement and pension money went somewhere....right? Guess who's pockets? In short, they should pay for ALL of our Nations woes...probably the whole planets, as well. They've been given tax breaks for quite a long time while we've been borrowing money from China to fight two wars and everything else...which is unprecedented in our nations history.
If you want to talk about redistribution of wealth...I'll start by saying so much wealth shouldn't have gone in the direction it went, in the first place. We were raped...RAPED and that needs to end, now.
I don't think that ericwoo should be flipping the bill but folks who've earned far more than he or any of us could boot in. I think the line should be drawn higher....perhaps at 350k or more. I'm not an economist though I'll assume anyone earning in that range did fine with the tax cuts and conditions over the past 9-10 years....?
Trickle down economics is a Reagan Republican concept. If it ain't tricking down...and it hasn't, I'm all for a government sponsored "rain dance" at this point because Corporate America and the ultra rich brought us to the brink of a complete melt-down.
Call it whatever you want but they (starting way up at the top) damn-well better give it back one way or the next.
Message edited by author 2009-07-27 20:31:58. |
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07/27/2009 07:54:02 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I believe in a flat tax. I believe that an insane amount of our nations wealth was vacuumed to the Top 12% of our population. God knows our retirement and pension money went somewhere....right? In short, they should pay for ALL of our Nations woes...probably the whole planets, as well. They've been given tax breaks for quite a long time while we've been borrowing money from China to fight two wars...which is unprecedented in our nations history.
If you want to talk about redistribution of wealth...I'll start by say so much shouldn't have gone in the direction it went in the first place. We were raped...RAPED and that needs to end, now.
I don't think that ericwoo should be flipping the bill but folks who've earned far more than he or any of us. I think the line should be dranw higher....perhaps at 300k or more. I'll assume anyone earning in that range did fine with the tax cuts over the past 9-10 years....?
Trickle down economics is a Reagan Republican concept. If it ain't tricking down...and it hasn't, I'm all for a government sponsored "rain dance" at this point because Corporate America and the ultra rich brought us to the brink of a complete melt-down.
Call it whatever you want but they (starting way up at the top) damn-well better give it back one way or the next. |
I am 100% with you on the flat tax. That is the ONLY way to make things fair and economical for everyone across the board. Unfortunately, O isn't looking for flat or fair right now, he is looking to stick it to the rich man. The wife and I together are not very far from the line you want to draw. I work 2 jobs and have the business, and she works a shit ton of hours to make sure kids have the care they need. For that, we are compensated. Do you think I will pull the same bullshit hours when I start getting hit with new taxes out the ass? You mention that I need a heart. Trust me, I give more everyday than most of the jerks pushing for this bullshit policy to pass will in their entire fucking lifetime.
And, do you really believe that taxing the rich is going to be the solution? If you'll recall, the wealthy own...well, almost everything. Do you think that the wealthy will just absorb the new taxes and let you go on making the wage you make or getting the raises you were getting? Hell no. The same applies for me. You start hitting me with new taxes to cover those that serve me, I will stop going out to be served. I'll drop the outstanding tips I give my regulars and just go back to drinking my beer at home. You tax the wealthy more than their fair share and you will absolutely see the trickle down effect. Those taxes will hinder spending, it will hinder most of my blue collar family from getting any sort of annual raise, it will absolutely decrease the money that they do manage to donate, and it will curtail many aspects of a lot of lifestyles.
As to my insensitivity, you are correct. However, I am sick and fucking tired of watching the population that *I* served for so long look and EXPECT more and more handouts. That is exactly what is happening now, and that is exactly what got Obama a significant amount of his votes. How about we pull all this bullshit welfare money that we throw away every year to chronic social parasites and move that into a government funded healthcare system? I'll restate an earlier opinion...I DO NOT MIND HELPING AS LONG AS YOU ARE ALSO WILLING TO HELP YOURSELF. However, I refuse to give anymore until there is some sort of restructuring of what I am already required to give. Welfare hasn't worked right since its inception. What makes you think that a government ran healthcare system will become anymore than another handout program that further breeds more social parasites?
Message edited by author 2009-07-27 19:54:46. |
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07/27/2009 08:09:26 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Welfare hasn't worked right since its inception. What makes you think that a government ran healthcare system will become anymore than another handout program that further breeds more social parasites? |
Have you ever read Nickel and dimed? Many of the social parasites that you see are smart people who have been placed in a situation from which there is no recovery. It is a great read by a well educated woman who placed herself in minimum wage jobs to explore the trap that is the minimum wage today.
I agree that welfare does not work well, and it has been tinkered with to make it work better. I don't think our current medical insurance system works any better, and Obama's plan is a very limited measured attempt to take a first step to correct that system. Something has to change to reform out health care insurance system and this effort is to my eyes a very limited step in the right direction. |
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07/27/2009 08:50:39 PM · #89 |
ew-I agree with you about lazy ass parasites that should be asked/forced to fend for themselves. I know they exist and I think....no, I know the welfare system is broken. I've worked as a consultant for the HRA and they could do a far better job of weeding out people that can earn and don't.
I'm sure you're inundated by them seeing abuses on a daily basis but don't let them define your entire attitude. That's not fair to people who actually need help but I do feel where you are coming from.
The rich will always spend money. They'll buy cheaper and fewer flower arrangements at their daughters weddings. They'll go with the Chicken instead of the Veal but that will be it.
The whole country needs an overhaul and I'm willing to let this guy give it a whirl. Shit...could things get any frickin worse?
I've been breaded, shredded, sliced and diced over the last 3 years. I certainly don't blame anyone in your bracket but I do blame the "screw-artists" 3 to 5 notches above you. Things need to be set right and it's long overdue. |
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07/27/2009 09:42:53 PM · #90 |
I don't understand why folks are getting so upset at this stage. No one yet knows what the final plan will look like or how it will be funded. Here is the latest information I've found:
Senate Group Omits Employer Mandate |
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07/27/2009 10:19:34 PM · #91 |
The Kaiser Family Foundation link ( one of the few information sources that has no profit motive in skewing data on this subject) has a nice short form comparison of the different plans in play. It sure looks like the power of the insurance companied to spend vast sums on political campaigns is watering down any attempt at real reform.
We have the best legislature money can buy, |
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07/27/2009 11:06:01 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
No one yet knows what the final plan will look like or how it will be funded. |
It doesn't matter. Whatever it is will be a plan of some sort, so it must be stopped. That goes for anything (I love how Senator Grassley, a man with zero legal education, is questioning a long-time federal judge's understanding of the constitution).
Message edited by author 2009-07-27 23:14:12. |
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07/28/2009 12:09:27 AM · #93 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
No one yet knows what the final plan will look like or how it will be funded. |
It doesn't matter. Whatever it is will be a plan of some sort, so it must be stopped. |
Well, we live in a society where people first choose to support or oppose before learning all of the facts. Par for course really.
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07/28/2009 12:17:51 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
I don't understand why folks are getting so upset at this stage. No one yet knows what the final plan will look like or how it will be funded. Here is the latest information I've found:
Senate Group Omits Employer Mandate |
The last sentence of this article is unsettling.
Individuals would have a mandate to buy affordable insurance.
When the government mandates anything it deserves a second, third, and even fourth look at. You don't rush anything that has a mandate clause in it.
And who is to say what is affordable for individuals?
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07/28/2009 05:05:58 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
No one yet knows what the final plan will look like or how it will be funded. |
It doesn't matter. Whatever it is will be a plan of some sort, so it must be stopped. |
Well, we live in a society where people first choose to support or oppose before learning all of the facts. Par for course really. |
I think the TV ads, run by the interest groups are apparently very effective and seem to be driving the debate, however lacking in fact they may be.
They have fear, well mastered. If you listen to the language used in these commercials, first it should make you laugh but sadly you'll start hearing it from the pundits and then the "man on the street" interviews. Again, short on facts and misleading...it's brilliant stuff.
Message edited by author 2009-07-28 14:34:39. |
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07/28/2009 05:14:12 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
If you can afford the current out of pocket costs. Great. You're probably in a minority. Noone should have to consider a choice between getting medical help or having shelter or having any other necessity of life. |
I work my ass off to make sure I have EVERYTHING I need. Why shouldn't you and/or everyone else do the same? To hell with all this "for the good of fellow man" bullshit up until I finally get to be a fellow man. I spend enough on shit I don't use or need already. If you want, and especially if you feel like you need it, you damn well better be able to cover it yourself. I do.
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I'm guessing that your union contract through your hospital has been negotiated for you to ensure your co-pays are pretty low, and that since you are a care provider you don't wait for care with the rest of us. Just out of curiosity, what do YOU pay, cash, out of pocket every month for medical care coverage? I'll guess that it is very, very little. I might be wrong of course you may be some sort of self employed bootstrapping make your own fortune type nurse.
As for your " To hell with all this 'for the good of fellow man' bullshit" attitude, nursing seems an odd choice of career for a person with that attitude. Most people who I know in medicine want to help people, even if they can't make a profit off everyone of them. |
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07/28/2009 08:10:06 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I'm guessing that your union contract through your hospital has been negotiated for you to ensure your co-pays are pretty low, and that since you are a care provider you don't wait for care with the rest of us. Just out of curiosity, what do YOU pay, cash, out of pocket every month for medical care coverage? I'll guess that it is very, very little. I might be wrong of course you may be some sort of self employed bootstrapping make your own fortune type nurse.
As for your " To hell with all this 'for the good of fellow man' bullshit" attitude, nursing seems an odd choice of career for a person with that attitude. Most people who I know in medicine want to help people, even if they can't make a profit off everyone of them. |
There are no union contracts, or even unions for that matter, but I pay a very fair price with low copays. That was one benefit that played into consideration when I accepted this job. Nursing is not at all an odd choice for my shitty attitude. I work strictly with children. These guys haven't spent a lifetime making poor decisions like we adults have. I started in this field as a paramedic thinking that the work I did would actually make a difference to the people that used my service. And it did...about 5% of the time. The other 95% was spent dealing with absolute bullshit running in an urban EMS setting. I'd like to see anyone run an average of 10 calls in a 12 hour shift with at least 9 of those being total bullshit for 10-12 years and NOT lose faith in humanity. After that nonstop nonsense, I decided to find an area that would benefit from my skill and knowledge. So I did.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Most people who I know in medicine want to help people, even if they can't make a profit off everyone of them. |
Sure, we'd all just volunteer to do it and not worry about our car payments, mortgages, electricity, telephone, beer allowance, roses for the wife on Valentine's day, presents for the kids at Christmas, or my annual subscription to DPC. Of course I don't bill patients or expect to profit of every one. HOWEVER, I also wouldn't do this job if it didn't provide a profitable career for me. I am well compensated, but I also spend a shit ton of time away from my wife and my bar. If you start chopping into my compensation, I will stop spending so much time away from recreation. That may not really matter to you, but I work in a very specialized field, especially for my area of the country. There are children in the southeast US that will either have to endure a much longer wait, or worse, not get the critical care they need to sustain life while being transported back into our hospital system. Again, I love what I do, and I do it because there are kids that need the help and care I can provide. For that, I do expect fair compensation. There isn't enough money in the world to cover watching even one child dying in more agony than most of us have ever experienced, but I do expect, and get, fair compensation for the sacrifices I make. Without that, I'll just step aside and leave the dying children to you. Fair enough? |
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07/28/2009 08:38:21 PM · #98 |
I just saw a piece about the VA Health-care model.
Great service.
Happy users (I know 10 or more people, who speak highly of it).
Good delivery system.
Declining costs (I've heard two sides on that issue which oppose each other). Who cares we're a stinkin rich Nation....right?
One would hope the wealthiest nation in the world could figure out a way to cover all it's citizens.
Best Care Anywhere: Why VA Health Care is Better Than Yours
"U.S. healthcare is a fragmented, market driven system that lags behind much of the industrialized world in both quality and access"
"In fact, he offers proof that in the U.S. doctors and hospitals are rewarded for providing treatment, but not necessarily providing health to their patients."
I know that everyone of my friends in the industry, that work at NYC's top hospitals would testify to that second statement in court. I hear about it on a weekly basis.
Message edited by author 2009-07-28 21:10:51. |
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07/28/2009 09:36:03 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I'm curious as to how many people here have actually had to pay their own insurance instead of having some sort of assistance through employers.
When I closed my business in the beginning of 2004 and was paying for al;l of the medical insurance for myself, my wife, and my daughter, I was paying over $10,000 a year, and I had *NO* dental, optical, or prescription drug plans.
I now have insurance through my wife who works for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and things are MUCH different.
Somehow, I just don't see Obama's ideas being bad. |
I'm one of those self employed who has to pay two arms and two legs for health insurance. It would be great if my rates went down without my taxes going up but I'm not holding my breath. I like Obama's ideas in principle. Hopefully it can work. However, the pessimist inside tells me I'll probably get screwed once again. The self employed have no bargaining power in the private sector therefore we get screwed and have to pay through the roof. Unfortunately, we also don't have much bargaining power in Congress since our votes don't sway elections so what do you think will happen when the sh*t hits the fan and there's compromise upon compromise? Who gets left out? Well the usual people. Those who votes don't matter of course. I hope I'm wrong.
Message edited by author 2009-07-28 21:37:41.
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07/28/2009 09:43:08 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I just saw a piece about the VA Health-care model.
Great service.
Happy users (I know 10 or more people, who speak highly of it).
Good delivery system.
Declining costs (I've heard two sides on that issue which oppose each other). Who cares we're a stinkin rich Nation....right?
One would hope the wealthiest nation in the world could figure out a way to cover all it's citizens.
Best Care Anywhere: Why VA Health Care is Better Than Yours
"U.S. healthcare is a fragmented, market driven system that lags behind much of the industrialized world in both quality and access"
"In fact, he offers proof that in the U.S. doctors and hospitals are rewarded for providing treatment, but not necessarily providing health to their patients."
I know that everyone of my friends in the industry, that work at NYC's top hospitals would testify to that second statement in court. I hear about it on a weekly basis. |
Just to clarify, VA being Veteran's Administration? Because if *that* is what you're speaking of, I can assure you that I know of at least one VA hospital that far below the standard of the local private hospital (however, it may be an unfair comparison because one of our local hospitals ranks nationally every year). |
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