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07/28/2009 10:00:21 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I just saw a piece about the VA Health-care model.
Great service.
Happy users (I know 10 or more people, who speak highly of it).
Good delivery system.
Declining costs (I've heard two sides on that issue which oppose each other). Who cares we're a stinkin rich Nation....right?
One would hope the wealthiest nation in the world could figure out a way to cover all it's citizens.
Best Care Anywhere: Why VA Health Care is Better Than Yours
"U.S. healthcare is a fragmented, market driven system that lags behind much of the industrialized world in both quality and access"
"In fact, he offers proof that in the U.S. doctors and hospitals are rewarded for providing treatment, but not necessarily providing health to their patients."
I know that everyone of my friends in the industry, that work at NYC's top hospitals would testify to that second statement in court. I hear about it on a weekly basis. |
Just to clarify, VA being Veteran's Administration? Because if *that* is what you're speaking of, I can assure you that I know of at least one VA hospital that far below the standard of the local private hospital (however, it may be an unfair comparison because one of our local hospitals ranks nationally every year). |
I'll echo kamat...the VA is the absolute LAST place you want to end up in Atlanta, especially if you're really sick. They have the bitchiest staff (constant gripes about overworked and underpaid), and ridiculously long waits. I have honestly spent over an hour in the ER hallway with an intubated patient experiencing an active MI on TWO SEPARATE OCCASIONS, and got told that we'd just have to wait until someone could be discharged. So we kept manually ventilating the patients. I have, not even once, seen any sort of urgency in their systems or actions. But hey, that is exactly how I would expect a federally funded healthcare system to function. My father-in-law is retired Air Force. He refuses to see any of the docs, especially the cardiologists that are in the VA system. He only uses the VA once each year, and he travels to Florida for that required visit. The VA may, in fact, be great idea, but it really seems, at least from the examples that I have personally witnessed, that the greatness of the idea was lost somewhere between inception and implementation.
Message edited by author 2009-07-28 22:01:33. |
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07/28/2009 10:51:04 PM · #102 |
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07/28/2009 11:03:39 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Just to clarify, VA being Veteran's Administration? Because if *that* is what you're speaking of, I can assure you that I know of at least one VA hospital that far below the standard of the local private hospital (however, it may be an unfair comparison because one of our local hospitals ranks nationally every year). |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
I'll echo kamat...the VA is the absolute LAST place you want to end up in Atlanta, especially if you're really sick. |
I'll third it.....'round here VA hospitals are abysmal.
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07/28/2009 11:17:34 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
The VA may, in fact, be great idea, but it really seems, at least from the examples that I have personally witnessed, that the greatness of the idea was lost somewhere between inception and implementation. |
Again, I've heard equal and opposite assessments from yours. It's hard to argue against a few bad personal experiences but from what I understand they receive respectable marks for care.
In short the US system ranks poorly compared to other developed Nations...
Preventable Death Ranking...
Georgia ranks a low 40 against other States in HC performance. There could be deeper problems in the State effecting poor VA care in Atlanta. Again, isolated instances of poor care matter but I wouldn't let that bog down an idea if it generally works well.
In 2000 the WHO ranked the US 37th.. A big part of their criteria if I understood the study was based on fair distribution. I assume there are many people that don't care about that.
Our present system is for profit and that fundamentally pollutes the entire arrangement.
Message edited by author 2009-07-28 23:22:35. |
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07/29/2009 12:37:49 AM · #105 |
So it looks like if you make any changes to your current health insurance you'll have to pay a hefty tax. If your health insurance is deemed not acceptable there is another tax. I couldn't figure out exactly what acceptable is except that it must be a "qualified health benefits plan", which I guess means to be determined.
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07/29/2009 04:26:49 AM · #106 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Our present system is for profit and that fundamentally pollutes the entire arrangement. |
That I absolutely cannot argue against. I just don't think we are looking at the overall picture right now. Healthcare is an issue, BUT it is only one piece to a much larger puzzle with parts that are in much worse shape. At least that's how I see it. |
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07/29/2009 10:25:45 AM · #107 |
| Our proposed system is managed by our government and that fundamentally pollutes the entire arrangement. |
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07/29/2009 10:35:59 AM · #108 |
Eric, how do you know your 911 patients were "social parasites?" Did you have access to their their health insurance info or payment methods? I never did when I worked the ambulance. You spent all of 45 minutes with each of these people and somehow know they are not working? Paying no taxes or rent? Drive expensive cars? Contribute nothing to society, etc?
I'm not denying that there are people like you describe but their negative impact to the system may be much overstated by you and others and is even minuscule compared to the corruption that exists at high levels of government and the corporate world. Why aren't you voicing any opposition to all the special interest money handed out by health insurance companies to members of congress directly involved with the hearings and crafting of health care reform legislation (such as Max Baucus, chair of Senate finance committee)?
The public housing that I've visited in the past were pretty dismal, depressing places and many of the people living there existed in abject poverty. No beauty, many children with no loving parents in their lives (at least you had that), rife with crime and drugs and gangs, and everyday is a battle of survival. Hardly the panacea you'd want us to believe they have just because they get a few small government perks.
However, provide a government sponsored primary health plan alternative and many of the people you deem parasites wouldn't need to use the ER. What we'd need to do is minimize corruption, granted, easier said than done, and to stop the "trickly UP" economics that now exist in health care. Actually, not a trickle but rather a large stream of money that go to the fat cats at the top of the health care world. Even in public health care institutions, which are run like corporations now, large bonus money is handed out to managers for keeping staffing and supplies low, as an example. This certainly does not improve health care quality. There needs to be a more equitable arrangement between the haves and the have nots.
What bothers me about your post below and subsequent posts is your holier-than-thou, self rightous attitude because you think you work harder than the people you've served. You can't step into someone else's shoes that easily. While you seem to be fixated on "social parasites" what I haven't seen you speak about is people who have worked hard all their lives and wind up with health problems that prevent them from working and so they wind up losing their health insurance. Wouldn't it be great for people like this to have a government option to fall back onto?
Originally posted by ericwoo:
You are absolutely wrong. My attitude reflects a couple of decades of watching social parasites suck on the government tit expecting to give nothing in return. I spent many, many years riding an urban ambulance, responding to those "underprivileged" citizens, their 9 fucking children, living in 100% government funded housing, living on 100% government funded welfare/food stamp programs, working absolutely 0%, paying absolutely 0% income taxes, driving their Cadillac Escalades, playing their new gaming system on their 60" plasma screens and expecting that I somehow still owe them something more. Now I need to give a shit if they and their baseball team of children have access to a doctor or not.
There is not a hospital or health system in this country that will deny you care that you need to sustain life or limb without regard to whether you can pay or not. Beyond that, if you need healthcare, you should be able to find a way to cover yourself. Why do you expect me to pay more so you can go see a doctor with every little headache or chest cold? I'd like granite counter tops throughout my house. You willing to pitch in? I know...I do't need them, but I really, really want them. I grew up with NOTHING, but I had parents that worked their asses off with two, sometimes three, minimum wage jobs each to make sure there was food on the table and that we were self-sufficient. Neither of them got past the 8th grade, and I had no direction towards doing anything different. But I did. I have a job that provides a pretty good health plan. I do pay fairly high premiums, but I get what I pay for and I pay for what I use. Now you expect me to add your care into my taxes or health premiums, too? That's where I call bullshit. I found a way to fund my life and all of my needs without any expectations that anyone else would be there to help me. The rest of society should, too. OR, these social parasites that the system has produced should be willing to contribute something back to the system. How about we cover your healthcare needs and you agree to cover the days of some of these furloughed government workers to make sure that all the services that we are already paing for can continue seamlessly? Maybe take a weekend that you are off from work to cut some grass on the highway or perhaps help out at the local landfill? If you are willing to give more, I'll make an agreement to pay more. Until then, start learning to take care of yourself and your family. Your needs are not my problem. |
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07/29/2009 10:42:32 AM · #109 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Our proposed system is managed by our government and that fundamentally pollutes the entire arrangement. |
I still don't get why you guys are still so afraid of the "Red Menace"...
Almost every one of your public services are "socialized" (here, we just say "public", as opposed to "private"), but that one should not?
But that's ok, just keep giving your money to people who'll do ANYTHING not to give it back to you when you'll need healthcare.
I don't understand why you guys are not more angry and fed up with those private healthcare insurance company. I guess this is the "abused woman" syndrome....: "he beats me alll the time, but I ove him so much, and I need him, and that's probably my fault if he beats me"
Edited for a missed word
Message edited by author 2009-07-29 10:43:13. |
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07/29/2009 11:43:07 AM · #110 |
Originally posted by merchillio:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Our proposed system is managed by our government and that fundamentally pollutes the entire arrangement. |
I still don't get why you guys are still so afraid of the "Red Menace"...
Almost every one of your public services are "socialized" (here, we just say "public", as opposed to "private"), but that one should not?
But that's ok, just keep giving your money to people who'll do ANYTHING not to give it back to you when you'll need healthcare.
I don't understand why you guys are not more angry and fed up with those private healthcare insurance company. I guess this is the "abused woman" syndrome....: "he beats me alll the time, but I ove him so much, and I need him, and that's probably my fault if he beats me" |
I agree. It's a pretty McVeigh-ish attitude some people have towards government with some merit but overall irrational.
I'm also surprised that people aren't more upset that they are being raped by Corporate America and have been for years. If that didn't come to obvious light throughout last summer and into the Fall, it will never sink in.
Corporate America, their lobbyists and their money need to be clipped from the system. Health Care should no longer be a for profit industry. If we can pull that off, at least in part we'll see costs drop by a third or better.
eta:"Beth Israel and Duke Medical Center. Both initiated programs that were so successful at improving health that they became unprofitable and were ultimately terminated."
I'm going to research these test programs further but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that these actions were trashed when people realized they weren't going to get rich with them in place.
Message edited by author 2009-07-29 13:20:33. |
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07/29/2009 11:46:41 AM · #111 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by merchillio:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Our proposed system is managed by our government and that fundamentally pollutes the entire arrangement. |
I still don't get why you guys are still so afraid of the "Red Menace"...
Almost every one of your public services are "socialized" (here, we just say "public", as opposed to "private"), but that one should not?
But that's ok, just keep giving your money to people who'll do ANYTHING not to give it back to you when you'll need healthcare.
I don't understand why you guys are not more angry and fed up with those private healthcare insurance company. I guess this is the "abused woman" syndrome....: "he beats me alll the time, but I ove him so much, and I need him, and that's probably my fault if he beats me" |
I agree. It's a pretty McVeigh-ish attitude some people have towards government with some merit but overall irrational.
I'm also surprised that people aren't more upset that they are being raped by Corporate America and have been for years. If that didn't come to obvious light throughout last summer and into the Fall, it will never sink in.
Corporate America, their lobbyists and their money need to be clipped from the system. Health Care should no longer be a for profit industry. If we can pull that off, at least in part we'll see costs drop by a third or better. |
Some men people you just can't reach. |
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07/29/2009 02:14:37 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I'm not denying that there are people like you describe but their negative impact to the system may be much overstated by you and others and is even minuscule compared to the corruption that exists at high levels of government and the corporate world. Why aren't you voicing any opposition to all the special interest money handed out by health insurance companies to members of congress directly involved with the hearings and crafting of health care reform legislation (such as Max Baucus, chair of Senate finance committee)? |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I'm also surprised that people aren't more upset that they are being raped by Corporate America and have been for years. If that didn't come to obvious light throughout last summer and into the Fall, it will never sink in.
Corporate America, their lobbyists and their money need to be clipped from the system. Health Care should no longer be a for profit industry. If we can pull that off, at least in part we'll see costs drop by a third or better. |
Agreed, and it's also surprising that more folks aren't upset with U.S. military spending (more than the rest of the world combined), and especially with the cost of the war in Iraq, a war of choice that economists estimate will cost at least $1 trillion (and possibly as much as $3 trillion). That $1 trillion could have financed health care reform for 10 years.
There will always be dishonest individuals who will cheat the welfare system, and I think we all would like to remedy that situation. But in my opinion it's really a rather minor concern when considering all the other ways in which our tax dollars are squandered. |
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07/29/2009 02:29:52 PM · #113 |
Ontario Fires Back Against Woman in US Advertisement
Shona Holmes of Hamilton, Ont., is featured in a TV campaign in which she claims she had to mortgage her home and travel to a U.S. clinic for brain surgery in 2005 due to a six-month wait for care in Canada.
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07/29/2009 02:39:18 PM · #114 |
So I'm holding my opinion of the plan until I know what the plan actually is. I'm all for reform as there is a lot of stupid stuff that goes on that costs us money in the healthcare system.
But I do find it funny that the people who were upset about the government listening in to phone calls of suspected terrorist has no problem turning over their medical history and future to the same government!
I'm by no means a conspiracy theory guy, but I really don't want the government having my medical history at their fingertips to do what they want with and deciding what care I can and can't get get. If you have no problem with this, think of the possibility that about the time this takes full effect Palin/Gingrich could be in charge! I'm just saying... |
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07/29/2009 02:43:58 PM · #115 |
| If somehow, in some bizarre universe, Palin ever made it to the highest office in this country... I think at least 50% of the population would finally cry uncle and move. |
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07/29/2009 02:48:29 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
If somehow, in some bizarre universe, Palin ever made it to the highest office in this country... I think at least 50% of the population would finally cry uncle and move. |
WOOHOO! She has my vote then! No more lines! |
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07/29/2009 02:50:48 PM · #117 |
| On Monday NPR had a 30-minute on-air discussion of What's Canadian Health Care Really Like?, including guests with the experience to be able to comment on the subject, and members of the public calling in with their experiences and opinions. |
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07/29/2009 02:52:46 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I really don't want the government having my medical history at their fingertips... |
Umm... Medicare, Medicaid, VA, national vaccination programs, medical checks for public sector employees, Social Security — your fears are almost inevitable as it is. Moreover, they're somewhat irrational as we already rely on the government for drug approvals, consumer product safety, food safety and more. While not perfect, they're still vastly preferable to for-profit alternatives (imagine trusting drug approvals to Philip Morris). More importantly, many government-run healthcare systems around the world put our current model to shame. |
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07/29/2009 03:05:51 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I really don't want the government having my medical history at their fingertips... |
Umm... Medicare, Medicaid, VA, national vaccination programs, medical checks for public sector employees, Social Security — your fears are almost inevitable as it is. |
"almost"... those are all optional (actually don't you have to ask for all of those?)
Originally posted by scalvert:
Moreover, they're somewhat irrational as we already rely on the government for drug approvals, consumer product safety, food safety and more. While not perfect, they're still vastly preferable to for-profit alternatives (imagine trusting drug approvals to Philip Morris). |
Agree with you there, it would be scary, but not part of my point.
Originally posted by scalvert:
More importantly, many government-run healthcare systems around the world put our current model to shame. |
In some aspects yes, in some no. You can't make a blanket statement out of that.
How many nations as obese and unhealthy as the US is have as high of a life expectancy (I don't know the answer, but i'm guessing very few countries are as fat as we are)
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07/29/2009 03:12:26 PM · #120 |
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07/29/2009 03:25:17 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
...those are all optional (actually don't you have to ask for all of those?) |
No. Social Security and certain vaccination programs are pretty much mandatory.
Originally posted by LoudDog:
How many nations as obese and unhealthy as the US is have as high of a life expectancy (I don't know the answer, but i'm guessing very few countries are as fat as we are) |
How many industrialized nations do so little to prevent obesity and unhealthy living? As long as healthcare is a for-profit business, there's good money in raising couch potatoes. ;-) |
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07/29/2009 03:25:19 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
If somehow, in some bizarre universe, Palin ever made it to the highest office in this country... I think at least 50% of the population would finally cry uncle and move. |
Off topic --
I'm a moderate/conservative republican and palin scares me and makes me want to go to my happy place. . .
Back to your discussion. |
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07/29/2009 03:32:08 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
How many industrialized nations do so little to prevent obesity and unhealthy living? As long as healthcare is a for-profit business, there's good money in raising couch potatoes. ;-) |
Are Americans that stupid that they need the government to tell them to stop eating McDonalds daily and try walking some time? Don't answer that... :) |
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07/29/2009 03:33:01 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Kelli:
If somehow, in some bizarre universe, Palin ever made it to the highest office in this country... I think at least 50% of the population would finally cry uncle and move. |
Off topic --
I'm a moderate/conservative republican and palin scares me and makes me want to go to my happy place. . .
Back to your discussion. |
Agreed, I was going for scare factor! |
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07/29/2009 03:46:58 PM · #125 |
| Socialised health care is for sick people who need it. You either are one of them, or you will be, or you will die suddenly before that happens. |
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