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07/23/2009 05:36:51 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by BAMartin:
Originally posted by yanko:
How about we post Obama's health care plan? Does anyone have a link to the details of it? It would be nice to see what I would pay in taxes under his plan vs what I pay in premiums today, what's covered what's not, etc. I understand the point is to try and get everyone covered so I'd expect to pay more but it sure would be nice to at least know what exactly I'm getting with his plan. |
I have not read this whole thing, but it might be what you are looking for.
Health Care Blog |
Actually, this might give you a better understanding and it's more updated. link As far as everything I've read and heard, it would not effect your private insurance at all except to lower what you pay in premiums. If you switch jobs and your previous job had better insurance, you could opt to keep it. Unless you are making over 250k a year, it shouldn't impact your taxes either. |
Thanks. I'll look at those but is there anything more official out there besides what other people have written about it? Being self employed my premiums are pretty high. Would those go down under his plan? If so why would it if I'm on a private plan? |
They should go down by at least $2500 per year. Does that help? |
You really aren't naive enough to think that the average, WORKING American will just save $2500 per year, are you? Where will all this magical money "saving" come from? This seems like my wife's thinking that she "saved" me $400 on a purse because it was priced at $800 recently but on sale for half off. Cool, now we can buy extra stuff with all that "saved" cash. I am a nurse. Obama's plan is complete, country bankrupting bullshit. We do need a solution, but we need a solution that isn't rushed through just because someone made a whimsical campaign promise. We, being upper-middle class, WORKING Americans, absolutely cannot afford his idea of healthcare. Period. |
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07/23/2009 05:36:53 PM · #27 |
I rather liked what Obama said last night. If we had the option to create a plan who's costs will go up every year, would you be in favor of that new plan? How about a plan that will drop people form the roles of the insured should they need so much medicine that it was no longer profitable to insure them? A plan that would remove about one third of the money directed at healthcare to pay for people who's job it was to stand between the sick and that care they need as gatekeepers, to have accountants telling doctors how they were allowed to treat their patients. This is the system we have. Do you think it is good enough?
As far as the need to set some random deadline to get this system in place, when the Clinton initiative was shot down, those who defeated the bill all saw flaws in the medical delivery system at that time, and promised measured, rational change. Nothing happened; and without forcing some change, the profitability of the current system will insure that no change will happen as long as the vast profits of the insurance companies are allowed to bankroll the political campaigns of those who will block any changes to our very broken medical system.
To those who fear "Socialized medicine" don't be so scared. Ours is the only first world country without it. Ive seen emergency rooms in France and Denmark, and they work better than the one I pay over one thousand dollars a month to have access to. We have socialized education, police services, fire protection, and roadways. We have low income housing and food. What is so horrible about setting up a system that lets every American have access to a doctor? |
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07/23/2009 05:40:53 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
We have socialized education, police services, fire protection, and roadways. We have low income housing and food. What is so horrible about setting up a system that lets every American have access to a doctor? |
Great, MORE shit I have to pay for that I do not use. What is so bad is that you are telling ME that I have to pay the bill for it. I pay the bill for enough crap that I don't use already. If YOU use it, YOU should pay for it. It really is easy to spend someone else's money, huh?
Message edited by author 2009-07-23 17:43:23. |
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07/23/2009 05:46:12 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
We have socialized education, police services, fire protection, and roadways. We have low income housing and food. What is so horrible about setting up a system that lets every American have access to a doctor? |
Great, MORE shit I have to pay for that I do not use. What is so bad is that you are telling ME that I have to pay the bill for it. I pay the bill for enough crap that I don't use already. If YOU use it, YOU should pay for it. It really is easy to spend someone else's money, huh? |
Can you afford hospitalization or any other major medical service if the need arose tomorrow? There are a lot of people who can't and avoid going to the doctor when they really should because they can't afford it. They'd rather put food on the table. In the long run they can't do either since they become to sick to work.
Message edited by author 2009-07-23 17:48:27. |
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07/23/2009 06:02:23 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Great, MORE shit I have to pay for that I do not use. What is so bad is that you are telling ME that I have to pay the bill for it. I pay the bill for enough crap that I don't use already. If YOU use it, YOU should pay for it. It really is easy to spend someone else's money, huh? |
You don't see the point in having public schools? Would you rather fire all the police and deal out law yourself? How about a fire truck that pulls up to a fire and negotiates a fair price to put out a fire? This Ayne Rand happy bullshit of the lone man striding across the world unfettered, hoping to free himself from all those who leach off him, is a popular illusion of the Regan right that has no reality outside movies and mythos.
There are Quakers in prison because they won't pay the portion of taxes that go to fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we all decide to only pay for the services that we use who pays to keep our borders safe? Any interest in funding the Center for Disease Control? How about the Air Force? Ive never ridden in a stealth bomber, but if I choose not to pay my share, you will pay to keep me in prison. |
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07/23/2009 06:08:17 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by BAMartin:
Originally posted by yanko:
How about we post Obama's health care plan? Does anyone have a link to the details of it? It would be nice to see what I would pay in taxes under his plan vs what I pay in premiums today, what's covered what's not, etc. I understand the point is to try and get everyone covered so I'd expect to pay more but it sure would be nice to at least know what exactly I'm getting with his plan. |
I have not read this whole thing, but it might be what you are looking for.
Health Care Blog |
Actually, this might give you a better understanding and it's more updated. link As far as everything I've read and heard, it would not effect your private insurance at all except to lower what you pay in premiums. If you switch jobs and your previous job had better insurance, you could opt to keep it. Unless you are making over 250k a year, it shouldn't impact your taxes either. |
Thanks. I'll look at those but is there anything more official out there besides what other people have written about it? Being self employed my premiums are pretty high. Would those go down under his plan? If so why would it if I'm on a private plan? |
They should go down by at least $2500 per year. Does that help? |
Where are you getting that number from? |
Type the following sentence in your google search bar... average savings on insurance premiums under obamas health care plan. You should get about 37,000 hits. Mostly what I've read is the average figure will be about $2500. I didn't pull the figure out of my butt. I don't have any guarantee on that number, because a plan has not passed. I guess we'll all have to wait and see. I do know the system the way it is does not work. I do know that I'm on permanant social security disability because I didn't have access to health care that could have prevented me from getting so sick. I could be a working, productive part of society right now, this very minute, if I had been born in a country that offered socialized medicine. Instead, it is what it is. I've gotten over my anger, but it doesn't change the facts. I know many people going without doctors/medications that really need them. Whatever they come up with will have to be better than what it is now.
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07/23/2009 06:15:20 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
We have socialized education, police services, fire protection, and roadways. We have low income housing and food. What is so horrible about setting up a system that lets every American have access to a doctor? |
Great, MORE shit I have to pay for that I do not use. |
Like the portion of your taxes whicch pay for fire protection? At one time, the fire department only responded to adresses whose owners voluntarily paid into a special fund ... otherwise it was burn baby burn ...
Your attitude really reflects a lack of understanding of the concepts of society and civilization -- a fundamental desire for a return to the true anarchy of the law of the jungle. Did it not occur to you that your money wouldn't be worth the paper its printed on if it weren't backed by the consensual agreement of your fellow taxpayers to support the governmental structure?
Fortunately the debate is shifting to the real problem -- the insurance industry, which act as leeches on the whole system, sucking out some 30% of the health care dollars while providing exactly zero addition to the health of the nation. Think about it ... in order to fulfill their corporate mission and fiduciary duty -- maximizing shareholder profits -- insurance companies of necessity must maximize premiums, while denying as many procedures as possible, and paying the least for those they can't avoid paying at all. |
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07/23/2009 06:43:06 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Like the portion of your taxes whicch pay for fire protection? At one time, the fire department only responded to adresses whose owners voluntarily paid into a special fund ... otherwise it was burn baby burn ...
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Exactly Paul, and this is the medical system we have today. The problem with subscription based fire protection is that if no one puts out the fire at first it gets bigger, and is much harder to stop at only certain addresses. Like fire, sicknesses and communicable diseases are cheap to deal with if you can get to them fast, or better yet prevent them from happening. Once they grow and spread, costs get higher.
As far as the rulers of the American health insurance systems drive to maximize shareholder wealth, quite a bit of it sticks to the top rungs of the corporate ladder, like the CEO of United Health Care of Minnesota, who pulled a billion (yes billion with a B) dollars out of his company into his personal wealth, before the SEC got him for backdating options. If we allowed the head of the navy to pull a billion dollars out of ship building contracts and divert it into his personal fortune, how good do you think our Navy would be?
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07/23/2009 06:48:26 PM · #34 |
As a Canuck I'm curious. What kind of rates do you guys pay now?
In BC our monthly rates are:
$54 for one person
$96 for a family of two
$108 for a family of three or more
The current adjusted net income thresholds are:
$20,000 - 100% subsidy
$22,000 - 80%
$24,000 - 60%
$26,000 - 40%
$28,000 - 20%
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07/23/2009 07:16:17 PM · #35 |
My boss was paying about $750/month for medical (Kaiser HMO) and dental insurance for myself and my son; we still have out-of-pocket expenses with that (e.g. $15 for a doctor visit or prescription).
Right now I'm on COBRA coverage, for which there's a substantial discount for the next nine months, so I'm paing more like $350/month ... :-(
Don't forget the cut being taken by the malpractice insurance industry -- an anethesiologist or surgeon may have insurance premiums in excess of $100,000/year ... |
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07/23/2009 07:43:11 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
My boss was paying about $750/month for medical (Kaiser HMO) and dental insurance for myself and my son; we still have out-of-pocket expenses with that (e.g. $15 for a doctor visit or prescription).
Right now I'm on COBRA coverage, for which there's a substantial discount for the next nine months, so I'm paing more like $350/month ... :-( |
Like GenIE, I'm just enrolled in a COBRA Plan to keep my present coverage which will last for 18 months, then I have to get a new plan on my own which will cost me more.
The government is subsidizing me for first 9 months at a rate of $193.80 (single person coverage) choosing the best plan my company offered. After the 9 months, it will get bumped up to $553.71 a month. That should wipe out my savings pretty quickly.
I hope they pass something or I could be screwed. At the rates they charge you become virtually a slave to the system, in terms of cost unless you are fortunate to enough to be covered by your workplace.
Message edited by author 2009-07-23 19:46:24. |
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07/23/2009 08:17:45 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
.....Like the portion of your taxes whicch pay for fire protection? At one time, the fire department only responded to adresses whose owners voluntarily paid into a special fund ... otherwise it was burn baby burn ... |
Which fire departments was this? |
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07/23/2009 08:25:45 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by BAMartin:
Originally posted by yanko:
How about we post Obama's health care plan? Does anyone have a link to the details of it? It would be nice to see what I would pay in taxes under his plan vs what I pay in premiums today, what's covered what's not, etc. I understand the point is to try and get everyone covered so I'd expect to pay more but it sure would be nice to at least know what exactly I'm getting with his plan. |
I have not read this whole thing, but it might be what you are looking for.
Health Care Blog |
As I understand it, there is more than one plan, Obama's and Congress's, each spoken of as THE plan. And, like all the other PLANS of late I doubt if either has been read by those we have elected to make decisions for us. What a bunch of crooks we have....on both sides of the aisle.
What government programs can you name that have been cost effective and not loaded with graft? |
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07/23/2009 08:38:07 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Your attitude really reflects a lack of understanding of the concepts of society and civilization -- a fundamental desire for a return to the true anarchy of the law of the jungle. Did it not occur to you that your money wouldn't be worth the paper its printed on if it weren't backed by the consensual agreement of your fellow taxpayers to support the governmental structure? |
You are absolutely wrong. My attitude reflects a couple of decades of watching social parasites suck on the government tit expecting to give nothing in return. I spent many, many years riding an urban ambulance, responding to those "underprivileged" citizens, their 9 fucking children, living in 100% government funded housing, living on 100% government funded welfare/food stamp programs, working absolutely 0%, paying absolutely 0% income taxes, driving their Cadillac Escalades, playing their new gaming system on their 60" plasma screens and expecting that I somehow still owe them something more. Now I need to give a shit if they and their baseball team of children have access to a doctor or not.
There is not a hospital or health system in this country that will deny you care that you need to sustain life or limb without regard to whether you can pay or not. Beyond that, if you need healthcare, you should be able to find a way to cover yourself. Why do you expect me to pay more so you can go see a doctor with every little headache or chest cold? I'd like granite counter tops throughout my house. You willing to pitch in? I know...I do't need them, but I really, really want them. I grew up with NOTHING, but I had parents that worked their asses off with two, sometimes three, minimum wage jobs each to make sure there was food on the table and that we were self-sufficient. Neither of them got past the 8th grade, and I had no direction towards doing anything different. But I did. I have a job that provides a pretty good health plan. I do pay fairly high premiums, but I get what I pay for and I pay for what I use. Now you expect me to add your care into my taxes or health premiums, too? That's where I call bullshit. I found a way to fund my life and all of my needs without any expectations that anyone else would be there to help me. The rest of society should, too. OR, these social parasites that the system has produced should be willing to contribute something back to the system. How about we cover your healthcare needs and you agree to cover the days of some of these furloughed government workers to make sure that all the services that we are already paing for can continue seamlessly? Maybe take a weekend that you are off from work to cut some grass on the highway or perhaps help out at the local landfill? If you are willing to give more, I'll make an agreement to pay more. Until then, start learning to take care of yourself and your family. Your needs are not my problem. |
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07/23/2009 08:38:42 PM · #40 |
Why do people even try to debate with someone who says that they "don't use" the services of the police and fire department?
Just because one lone individual doesn't burn down their own house doesn't mean that it won't otherwise get razed by an unchecked neighborhood firestorm. I'd suggest that Mr. Rand here has NO IDEA how many prevented calamities he's paid for with his taxes.
And heck, I prolly make a jillion more than him, but I'm fine paying my taxes. I quite like the idea of someone being paid to spray water on my house should it start smoking. Or someone to call in case of emergency. Neener! |
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07/23/2009 08:38:46 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by BAMartin:
Originally posted by yanko:
How about we post Obama's health care plan? Does anyone have a link to the details of it? It would be nice to see what I would pay in taxes under his plan vs what I pay in premiums today, what's covered what's not, etc. I understand the point is to try and get everyone covered so I'd expect to pay more but it sure would be nice to at least know what exactly I'm getting with his plan. |
I have not read this whole thing, but it might be what you are looking for.
Health Care Blog |
As I understand it, there is more than one plan, Obama's and Congress's, each spoken of as THE plan. And, like all the other PLANS of late I doubt if either has been read by those we have elected to make decisions for us. What a bunch of crooks we have....on both sides of the aisle.
What government programs can you name that have been cost effective and not loaded with graft? |
Medicare... read this... link. Of course that's just one, but I'm sure you can verify it if you want to. |
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07/23/2009 08:40:11 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
I'd like granite counter tops throughout my house. |
Granite counter tops in the bedroom? Kinky. |
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07/23/2009 08:42:11 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
What government programs can you name that have been cost effective and not loaded with graft? |
Wall Street
The Music Industry
The Banking System
The TV and Film Industries
Advertising
Organized Religion
...sorry, just realized the question was limited to government.
GIVE ME HEALTH CARE OR GIVE ME DEATH!
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07/23/2009 08:43:45 PM · #44 |
| Dang ericwoo.....that was to the point. :) |
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07/23/2009 09:16:52 PM · #45 |
I can understand and relate to some of what Eric says, particularly about basically deadbeats going along with the system and getting something for nothing and expecting free handouts.
Growing up in Michigan in the 70's I remember hearing about people having more children to get more monthly government support - welfare babies they were called. I have no idea if that still goes on or not.
I guess I can understand where people can get in a bind and need help at some point in their life. Help it should be, but it shouldn't be a way of life. How do you control / limit that?
Along the thoughts of what Eric said about his parents working multiple jobs to get by, etc... My parents did "ok" and had honest jobs that paid a fair wage. We certainly weren't wealthy, but didn't lack for basics either.
Today, I'm in a similar scenario. College degree, a family of five, and doing "ok". Decent house, job, etc... Do I worry about funding my kids education - yes. Do I worry about retirement - yes. Do I worry about a catastrophic illness - sure. While I can make ends meet, I pay a healthy dose of taxes now, and pay for healthcare insurance, car insurance, etc...do I want to see more $$$ coming out of my paycheck to fund healthcare for everyone? No. It's tight enough now as it is.
I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps a total socialist state (I think that's what it is called - haven't thought about it in a while) is a way to go. Government jobs for all (mandatory work if you're physically able). Government distributed food for all. Everyone lives in the same cookie-cutter houses. We can send our kids to government backed schools that all have the same programs. Then in the end everyone would have food, housing, and healthcare. Hopefully, we'd still have some individuality left. |
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07/23/2009 09:20:16 PM · #46 |
| that is called slavery......note, there will be MASTERS too. |
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07/23/2009 10:13:54 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Do I worry about funding my kids education - yes. Do I worry about retirement - yes. Do I worry about a catastrophic illness - sure. While I can make ends meet, I pay a healthy dose of taxes now, and pay for healthcare insurance, car insurance, etc...do I want to see more $$$ coming out of my paycheck to fund healthcare for everyone? No. It's tight enough now as it is.
I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps a total socialist state (I think that's what it is called - haven't thought about it in a while) is a way to go. Government jobs for all (mandatory work if you're physically able). Government distributed food for all. Everyone lives in the same cookie-cutter houses. We can send our kids to government backed schools that all have the same programs. Then in the end everyone would have food, housing, and healthcare. Hopefully, we'd still have some individuality left. |
I'm not sure that the question is leaving the system we have alone, or entering a total socialized state and give up all traces of individuality. Are these really the only two options you can imagine?
Since my wife and I are both self employed, we pay twice what Paul's employer does for coverage by the same provider, and over thirteen times what Sheila pays in B.C. Of course Sheila lives under the peril of socialized medicine. I set up a hearing test in May, Ill get to get a hearing test in August. Our system is broken.
Right now part of the high costs of my medical care is the fact that I'm on my own paying my own way, and no one is negotiating for me. My hospital has to deal with life threatening cases, and I get to pay for them. This notion that cost will sky rocket under an honest single payer system is bull. Our costs are already the highest in the world. If we adopt a system similar to those in Canada or Britain, our cost will drop. Not right away, but over time it will save us money over keeping the system we have. Which if we keep it will break us.
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07/23/2009 10:32:51 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
As a Canuck I'm curious. What kind of rates do you guys pay now?
In BC our monthly rates are:
$54 for one person
$96 for a family of two
$108 for a family of three or more
The current adjusted net income thresholds are:
$20,000 - 100% subsidy
$22,000 - 80%
$24,000 - 60%
$26,000 - 40%
$28,000 - 20% |
Don't you also pay additional income taxes to fund healthcare?
This was the info available on Wikipedia:
Health and Prescription Insurance Tax
Ontario charges a tax on income for the health system. These amounts are collected through the income tax system, and do not determine eligibility for public health care. The Ontario Health Premium is an additional amount charged on an individual's income tax that ranges from $300 for people with $20,000 of taxable income to $900 for high income earners. Individuals with less than $20,000 in taxable income are exempt.
Quebec also requires residents to obtain prescription insurance. When an individual does not have insurance, they must pay an income-derived premium. As these are income related, they are considered to be a tax on income under the law in Canada.
Other provinces, such as British Columbia, charge premiums collected outside of the tax system for the provincial medicare systems. These are usually reduced or eliminated for low-income people.
Alberta does not levy any taxes or premiums for its provincial medicare [1]. |
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07/23/2009 11:08:18 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
...do I want to see more $$$ coming out of my paycheck to fund healthcare for everyone? No. It's tight enough now as it is.
Hopefully, we'd still have some individuality left. |
We're talking Health Care not Orwell's 1984. Perspective...please.
A number of people have mentioned having "their taxes"raised and I was wondering two things, are you guys aware that you will only be taxed if you earn over $250,000 and that will be 1% equaling $2500?
That's not a lot of money and I have trouble breaking out the violins for anyone in that bracket. They'll be fine. |
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07/23/2009 11:26:05 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
...do I want to see more $$$ coming out of my paycheck to fund healthcare for everyone? No. It's tight enough now as it is.
Hopefully, we'd still have some individuality left. |
We're talking Health Care not Orwell's 1984. Perspective...please.
A number of people have mentioned having "their taxes"raised and I was wondering two things, are you guys aware that you will only be taxed if you earn over $250,000 and that will be 1% equaling $2500?
That's not a lot of money and I have trouble breaking out the violins for anyone in that bracket. They'll be fine. |
They talked about, and have not ruled out yet, taxing healthcare benefits as a revenue source. |
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