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07/07/2009 12:11:07 AM · #26 |
My absolute FAVORITE type of challenge is a Minimal editing challenge... because you REALLY have to get it right!!! Here is a pic from the last one we had (my pic)... take a couple minuted and look through ALL the entries... you will be able to tell who really is good with their camera... no offence, but WAY too many people rely on cropping and rotating in photoshop... you will see some pics REALLY need to be cropped and rotated... you can NOT do that in the real world!... I have a pic in a gallery that is printed to 65x28 inches from my D90 and another that is 35x56 inches from my D40... imagine if either of those pictured had to be rotated and cropped!!! for that size with that resolution you need every pixel you can get!!!
Take the time to look through the entries!!! you will learn a lot about what you should and should NOT do when taking a pictures =)
no offence to those who scored low or made these mistakes in this challenge... it's all just a lesson learned =)
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Minimal Editing Challenge |
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07/07/2009 12:25:35 AM · #27 |
| Personally I enjoy aspects of all the different rule sets and I never feel my creativity is hampered even in minimal editing. The only thing that really changes is your approach to getting the shot you are looking for. |
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07/07/2009 05:59:25 PM · #28 |
I had an argument with painter friend lately.
She was saying that using photoshop was cheating, and thus, not real photgraphy. She got me SO MAD. It's like saying that using flashes and strobes is not real photography beacause a REAL photographer should be able to use whatever natural light is available.
I said to her "well what you do is not REAL painting, because you're using brushes, a REAL painter should be able to paint by only pourring the paint on the canvas." No need to say she didn't reply
To me photoshop is a tool, as much as a flash or reflector or anything you use, from taking the picture to showing it (print, webpage, whatever).
You can sometime "save" a picture, but most of the time, if the picture is bad in-camera, it will be bad after photoshop too... you know what they say about polishing a turd.....
So yes, you need to take great pictures only with your camera. But then, there's nothing wrong a enhancing the picture's color or contrast. If we only knew all the dirty tricks they used in the darkroom before photoshop.... only they used chemicals instead of a computer mouse |
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07/07/2009 06:02:02 PM · #29 |
I'm glad that we have basic and advanced (though, the size limit really limits the amount of detail you can have in a shot)
I find that I'm lazier with advanced editing -- "oh, I can fix it later"
basic gets me to think more about the shot. |
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07/07/2009 06:15:29 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I find that I'm lazier with advanced editing -- "oh, I can fix it later"
basic gets me to think more about the shot. |
I think these simple statements embody the whole principle of why basic editing challenges are important. Indeed, it makes you "work harder" for getting the shot right, and not "fixing it in post." That does not devalue post-processing, nor anyone's ability to fix or adjust things in post -- it simply provides a forum in which you must focus on the fundamentals.
I'd liken it to a band performing music...
When in the studio, you can can take time and re-record bits that don't sound just right; you can process your voice, your instruments; you can make up sounds that don't even "exist" in terms of being made by a actual instrument. There are bands who are solely studio bands, and there is nothing wrong with that. There are absolutely miraculous studio recordings of artists, which could likely never be reproduced "live," and there is nothing wrong with that, either.
Basic editing is like performing live. There's a little stuff the sound guy can do to color the sound (don't you love the cross-medium terminology here?) ;) but overall, the audience is going to hear what the band is playing, right then and there, with nothing being "fixed" in post.
Oh oh oh... This analogy even extends to our rules for not being able to (paraphrasing) photograph a photograph. How? Waaaaait for it.... waaaaaait for it... That would be lip-syncing. No lip-syncing in basic editing. :D
My main point is that restrictions like basic and even minimal editing are not by any means antiquated, outdated, or even judgmental of any processing techniques. They simply shift the focus of what's "important" in composing a photograph to what can be done "in the moment" vs. what can be done afterward.
That was deep, wasn't it? It sounded deep when I read it out loud to myself. Maybe it will sound deep if I add some reverb to my voi--- oh, nevermind. :P
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07/07/2009 06:37:40 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by merchillio:
... you know what they say about polishing a turd..... |
Ahem ...  |
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07/07/2009 06:45:59 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by cdrice:
Originally posted by vawendy:
I find that I'm lazier with advanced editing -- "oh, I can fix it later"
basic gets me to think more about the shot. |
Basic editing is like performing live. There's a little stuff the sound guy can do to color the sound (don't you love the cross-medium terminology here?) ;) but overall, the audience is going to hear what the band is playing, right then and there, with nothing being "fixed" in post. |
Don't count on it:
Excerpt from Auto-tune Wikipedia page (emphasis added):
Auto-Tune is available as a plug-in for professional audio multi-tracking suites used in a studio setting, and as a stand-alone, rack-mounted unit for live performance processing. Auto-Tune has become standard equipment in professional recording studios.
===============
See the link to the "demo" on Nova Science Now at the bottom of the Wiki page. |
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07/07/2009 07:02:34 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by cdrice:
Basic editing is like performing live... |
...Auto-tune... |
Ahem. I shall rephrase. Basic editing is like performing live, acoustic... with no microphones. :P
Kinda kills my analogy for minimal editing, though... Oh, wait -- minimal editing is singing a cappella... with no microphones... in the shower.... naked. Ha, there. Saved it!
Way to call out the sound engineer on his own analogy there, Paul! ;)
ETA - Hey! There's an example of minimal editing singing in that demo video! I wonder if the showercap would be a DQ, though. :D
Message edited by author 2009-07-07 19:07:15. |
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07/07/2009 07:54:18 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by cdrice:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by cdrice:
Basic editing is like performing live... |
...Auto-tune... |
Ahem. I shall rephrase. Basic editing is like performing live, acoustic... with no microphones. :P
Kinda kills my analogy for minimal editing, though... Oh, wait -- minimal editing is singing a cappella... with no microphones... in the shower.... naked. Ha, there. Saved it!
Way to call out the sound engineer on his own analogy there, Paul! ;)
ETA - Hey! There's an example of minimal editing singing in that demo video! I wonder if the showercap would be a DQ, though. :D |
Basic editing is Apache Junction. Advanced editing is Tempe.
That works, right? ;) |
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07/07/2009 08:03:47 PM · #35 |
| I do respect the purists. The Amish of photography. |
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07/07/2009 08:23:50 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by cdrice:
Way to call out the sound engineer on his own analogy there, Paul! ;)
ETA - Hey! There's an example of minimal editing singing in that demo video! I wonder if the showercap would be a DQ, though. :D |
I just a couple of hours ago recorded some "practice tracks" (acoustic guitar, vocal) to send to my erstwhile lead guitarist to work from, using a pair of microphones which came tucked into the speaker cabinets of my c. 1968 Sony 7" reel-to-reel tape recorder, to a 15 year-old Tascam cassette deck. Basic enough for ya? ;-)
You might be interested in this story of collaboration in the internet age. |
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07/07/2009 08:35:51 PM · #37 |
Looking through the better scoring images from that minimal editing challenge it was interesting to note that they seem to have very few shots in broad daylight, and very few portraits in what is essentially a free study challenge. Is this perhaps that in half light of evening, aquatic in nature, or spectral studio light the soft gauzy look that comes straight out of the camera is forgivable?
Straight from camera digital photographs are soft, flat and lack contrast. this is true when compared to how film captures the world, or how our eye sees light. There is nothing "pure" about any form of photography, it is a complex series of either chemical or electronic manipulations to try to reproduce what the eye sees fleetingly. Whatever you can do to make that fleeting image permanent is photography. |
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07/07/2009 08:42:11 PM · #38 |
IMNSHO you have to keep basic editing in place to continue to draw in new members. Imagine being a newbie not only with a camera and photoshop and how overwhelming that all can be. Then join a site where everything in advanced is always allowed. You kill the new base that keeps this site at the level its at when other people leave. Kill basic and you kill the trough of $$$ and registered users that come into the site.
Matt |
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07/07/2009 08:52:36 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
My point is that the emphasis upon basic editing defines a comfort zone that many will never stray from. Its like saying you are well read when you'll only ever read Steven King novels and nothing else. |
If, like I have, you've read everything Stephen King has written, you might realize that this doesn't necessarily support your theory as the man has an incredible depth and breadth of knowledge.
I also don't agree at all about your comfort zone theory.
Like Karen, most of what comprises advanced editing simply isn't in my repertoire, yet since finding my way here to DPC my abilities have increased easily a thousandfold, as has my knowledge of photography, not just how to work with digital imaging.
I also certainly wouldn't consider Karen any slouch.......she's quite a terrific and accomplished photog IMNSHO. |
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07/07/2009 09:06:02 PM · #40 |
| Karen (like a lot of people here) knows what she stands for, & stands for it. Which is cool. There's something here for each one of us, up until which time there isn't & then we leave. |
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07/07/2009 09:12:40 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Ivo:
My point is that the emphasis upon basic editing defines a comfort zone that many will never stray from. Its like saying you are well read when you'll only ever read Steven King novels and nothing else. |
If, like I have, you've read everything Stephen King has written, you might realize that this doesn't necessarily support your theory as the man has an incredible depth and breadth of knowledge.
I also don't agree at all about your comfort zone theory.
Like Karen, most of what comprises advanced editing simply isn't in my repertoire, yet since finding my way here to DPC my abilities have increased easily a thousandfold, as has my knowledge of photography, not just how to work with digital imaging.
I also certainly wouldn't consider Karen any slouch.......she's quite a terrific and accomplished photog IMNSHO. |
Oh for goodness sake Jeb. Nobody said that anybody who has read Stephen King is a slouch and nobody implied the man is not intelligent. Furthermore I never made any remarks degrading Karen or her ambitions behind a lens. Please do not try to spin my comments into a pedestal from which you can fabricate a pseudo attack.
Read my post, all of the words, yes all of the words, and stand down. This is a discussion and not an attack on your perspective.
"A ship is safest in its harbor, but is that what it was designed for?"
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07/07/2009 09:19:47 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Oh for goodness sake Jeb. Nobody said that anybody who has read Stephen King is a slouch and nobody implied the man is not intelligent. Furthermore I never made any remarks degrading Karen or her ambitions behind a lens. Please do not try to spin my comments into a pedestal from which you can fabricate a pseudo attack. |
It wasn't.......you want to take it like that, I can't help it.
You threw out a volatile concept, and you're apparently getting responses you weren't prepared for......
My point was first, I thought you were using a poor analogy......excuse me.
My second point was that there are more people out there that are like Karen and I who couldn't use layers if their lives depended on it,and I was offering Karen up as probably one of the finest examples of the type of person who doesn't need every trick in the book to do well.
The object was NOT to offer myself as an example because I don't think I'm that good.
I can however, do a manageable job, and I am much better than I used to be.....and cannot do what most here can with advanced skills.
Have a nice day.
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07/07/2009 09:30:06 PM · #43 |
| Jeb, you just swung a punch and now you're playing coy. The concept has not been volatile so far, you've added that component. Chill dude. |
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07/07/2009 09:39:52 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Jeb, you just swung a punch and now you're playing coy. The concept has not been volatile so far, you've added that component. Chill dude. |
+1
Matt |
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07/07/2009 09:41:38 PM · #45 |
| OK -- from now on comments on the topic, not each other ... period. |
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07/07/2009 10:07:39 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
My point is that the emphasis upon basic editing defines a comfort zone that many will never stray from. Its like saying you are well read when you'll only ever read Steven King novels and nothing else. |
If you only do basic editing because you are not comfortable with software, then this statement is true.
However, another view is: In basic you test your skills with the camera. In advanced you test your skills with software. There are also people here who have the mindset of "Take the shot, I can fix it later in post processing." This type of person also stagnates because they never learn their camera, never acquire the "photographer's eye." Do you want to be good at cooking, or good at picking restaurants?
To be fully rounded, I believe you need to do both.
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07/07/2009 10:21:47 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by Ivo:
My point is that the emphasis upon basic editing defines a comfort zone that many will never stray from. Its like saying you are well read when you'll only ever read Steven King novels and nothing else. |
If you only do basic editing because you are not comfortable with software, then this statement is true.
However, another view is: In basic you test your skills with the camera. In advanced you test your skills with software. There are also people here who have the mindset of "Take the shot, I can fix it later in post processing." This type of person also stagnates because they never learn their camera, never acquire the "photographer's eye." Do you want to be good at cooking, or good at picking restaurants?
To be fully rounded, I believe you need to do both. |
I agree.
Then let me ask this, why is there a need to separate advanced editing from basic editing? Basic editing is restrictive where advanced editing is inclusive. Many seek harbor in basic editing and never leave?
BTW, that's where my ribbons come from. Why? Its easier.
Yikes, I didn't say that did I? ;-) |
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07/07/2009 10:40:54 PM · #48 |
| I say we go even more basic. Let's have a straight out of the camera (no crop, no edit, no adjusting, etc) challenge. Only resize of course. What do you think? |
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07/07/2009 10:50:57 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Carlo21:
I say we go even more basic. Let's have a straight out of the camera (no crop, no edit, no adjusting, etc) challenge. Only resize of course. What do you think? |
With the same film cameras using the same film, it might work. With the technological variances of the "onboard" computers housed within a DSLR, it wouldn't be a level paying field anyhow. This is where I chuckle at the hypocrisy of the digital purists in the first place. |
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07/07/2009 11:28:04 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Then let me ask this, why is there a need to separate advanced editing from basic editing? Basic editing is restrictive where advanced editing is inclusive. Many seek harbor in basic editing and never leave?
With the same film cameras using the same film, it might work. With the technological variances of the "onboard" computers housed within a DSLR, it wouldn't be a level paying field anyhow. This is where I chuckle at the hypocrisy of the digital purists in the first place. |
For the same reason you mention in your second comment above, and more. Not everyone has all the CS4, Topaz everything, bells and whistles. Basic levels the playing field for the photographer's eye. Advanced tests the mastery of the software. If you ribbon in both, then you are a master. If you can only do one or the other, you are a one trick pony.
Otherwise it is like saying that the 100 meter sprinters do not know the challenge of the marathon. And the sprinter competition is not needed because the 100 meters is included within the marathon.
Me, not only do I not know any tricks, I'm not even much of a pony. (More like a mule or some other similar term.)
Message edited by author 2009-07-07 23:29:43.
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