| Author | Thread |
|
|
06/15/2009 07:21:59 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Well, DPC is the ultimate hodgepodge.
I mean, we have popular photographers, and unpopular photographers, and great photographers, and average photographers, and popular photographers with great photographs, and great photographers with popular photographs, and popular photographers with average photographs and average photographers with great photographs, and unpopular photographers with popular photographs and... |
Hey! What about me?!!! You forgot the below average photographers. After almost 7 years here, I still get left out...!
|
|
|
|
06/15/2009 07:24:36 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Well, DPC is the ultimate hodgepodge.
I mean, we have popular photographers, and unpopular photographers, and great photographers, and average photographers, and popular photographers with great photographs, and great photographers with popular photographs, and popular photographers with average photographs and average photographers with great photographs, and unpopular photographers with popular photographs and... |
Hey! What about me?!!! You forgot the below average photographers. After almost 7 years here, I still get left out...! |
The ellipsis covers EVERYTHING and EVERYONE else. ;D |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 07:25:01 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by Mark-A:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I wasn't a) talking about tastes and thus b) the subsequent contention went south.
Talking about flaws! |
It might be an idea to explain why the 2 year old prefers the candy over the broccoli because I guess it isn't that it simply looks nicer? But even if it was isn't that a form of taste? ;) |
Yes, for god's sake. My point (I thought it was obvious) was to stress the difference between taste and value. |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 07:34:56 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Yes, for god's sake. My point (I thought it was obvious) was to stress the difference between taste and value. |
No sorry not obvious at all, but nevermind it really isn't that important :) |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 07:37:42 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Mark-A:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I wasn't a) talking about tastes and thus b) the subsequent contention went south.
Talking about flaws! |
It might be an idea to explain why the 2 year old prefers the candy over the broccoli because I guess it isn't that it simply looks nicer? But even if it was isn't that a form of taste? ;) |
Yes, for god's sake. My point (I thought it was obvious) was to stress the difference between taste and value. |
What is valued is still a choice--in your example, the value was defined as nutrition--measurable and quantifiable, and so is objective, but not the only possible measure of value. But what is valued in any given situation is still a choice to be made by each of those participating--and the taste itself could easily be the thing of value, and much harder to measure, or agree upon.
Taste and Value: Not necessarily different. |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 07:40:39 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by lky623:
I rather be trained by Nikonjeb... He seems to have more common sense about this whole discussion. |
Originally posted by Mark-A:
Ambulance needed!! Quick over here please someone , anyone!!! Medical help required...
Who has the straight jacket? ;)
Only jesting Jeb :D |
Gotta be a Noob!......8>)
Seriously, since zeus posted that I've been mulling over the statement in general.
I'm sort of an anachronism in the first place because virtually everything I know is empirical......and I have the scars to prove it.
There are times when I really wish that I had more formal education in certain areas to save me the trials by fire; there are other times when I am *really* glad that my brain is not clogged up with someone else's idea of what is.
I've often overcome difficulties and accomplished things with alacrity simply because I didn't know they were theoretically impossible.
Yet there are plenty of times when I get frustrated by the tasks that turn out to be the simplest once I've been shown the proper method.
|
|
|
|
06/15/2009 08:00:48 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
The eye of the beholder, in his view, needs to be trained before its owner should be allowed to pass judgement.
A two-year-old is likely to prefer candy to broccoli, yet we both know which of the two holds more nutritional value. |
Well put. As the two year old, the concept of nutritional value is a foreign one much like the notion of art to many people. In such situations it's common to try and explain art by relating it to other less nebulous concepts such as commercial photography. However, applying commercial standards or your own standards for that matter as the basis for judging someone else's art would be a mistake as the goals and purpose are not the same. |
I agree that most of this discussion boils down to education...or a lack of. It's not about snobbery or pretension. Simply put, some folks expose themselves to a lot more and can appreciate things on a different level. The food analogy is a good one.
As people spend hours and hours shopping for cameras with sharp lenses and low noise performance, they get so lost in those details they apply them everywhere...and worst of all, where they don't apply. I assume what we're seeing is people getting so lost or obsessed with taking sharp pictures (and all the other stuff) they miss the point of taking an image, in the first place.
Unsharp Decisive Moment
Based on Behind the Gare Saint-Lazare, 1932 -HCB
eta: A few minutes ago, over coffee, a friend of mine was just telling me how she wanted to clock a few people at a wedding, this past weekend and it reminded me of this thread. I ran out in a downpour and popped this one, just to throw it into the mix.
Message edited by author 2009-06-15 20:14:54. |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 08:16:17 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
ΓΆ€ΒΆ If you genuinely do not get the inspiration, message; the piece does not speak to you, that doesn't mean that it's not art, but it does mean that it's not art to you...
ΓΆ€ΒΆ I understand that his work is greatly inspirational to many people, and that's just peachy, but he really doesn't do much for me... |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
[Omissions and bullets mine]
I agree on both counts.
I also agree with your assessment of my lack of respect for some viewers. |
That was actually a tongue-in-cheek shot because I admire your rigorous standards......they're refreshing......8>)
I don't think that the lack of respect is derogatory so much as merely a statement of what is......at least I hope that's what I read out of that.
And truly, there are some days that I have a distinct lack of respect for some of the same reasons, exactly like the people who would say that HCB needs to hold his camera still. I've gotten busted in comments for the very effects, or message, I was cultivating.
Originally posted by zeuszen:
As to your general stance toward fings here, our views, however, part.
Your motivation appears to be largely democratic, which I would embrace, albeit less exclusively. |
My only caveat to that is from the standpoint of the right to the appreciation. There are those to whom art is an addendum to their life instead of one of the joys of it and reasons for it.
You and I probably have more in common than one may think based on our tastes, but not when it comes to the importance of the aesthetic beauty in the things that we like.
Yet are not our different types of appreciation equal if our appreciation is from the core?
For instance, the sound of a perfectly tuned, exquisitely designed small bore, multiple cylinder engine screaming to its ultimate output is one of the most beautiful sounds in life to my ears.
I would just as soon poke myself in the eye as attend a truly proper and well done opera.
Not that I'm accusing you of being an opera fan if you aren't, but it's easier for me to equate what I'm trying to say to music for the example.
Originally posted by zeuszen:
My motivation is largely promotional which translates into the job of helping to make the best pictures popular. |
Good luck with that!.......8>)
Unfortunately, the illiterate masses in this day and age do not have the Vatican, the Louvre, Rome, and the great and ever-present works of art that were so stark and clear in their day. Today there is so much clutter that it does mask the really good stuff.
The challenges are a perfect example of that, yet they also perform a great service in the teachings that they do.
For instance, I used to think that all too many of the side projects were things that just aren't/weren't my style.
Not too terribly long ago, I received a Posthumous ribbon on an image that I also scored over a 6. I truly was honored and delighted to cross over two distinct lines in that the image had enough of a popular appeal, and yet Don said:
"A lovely photo. The photo itself has a texture. Beautiful.
This picture makes me feel good. I'm giving it a ribbon."
I was really pleased about that since when I first got to know Don through Team Suck, and his ever-interesting Posthumous awards, I never thought I'd see one in my portfolio.
I'm delighted to find that I'm trainable........8>)
Originally posted by zeuszen:
As you can see from this statement, its author interprets beauty as aptness to purpose and art as a measure of emotional and intellectual experience.
The eye of the beholder, in his view, needs to be trained before its owner should be allowed to pass judgement. |
As much as it troubles me to say this......I agree. My engine analogy is a perfect example. I know when something isn't running properly even when others cannot sense the slightest issue because of the experience that I've had, the massive training in all sorts of situations and experiences that enable me to *know* when others may be oblivious.
But my agreement only extends as far as the interest and desire, too, something that in this age of instant gratification is sorely lacking. I have much more interest, and patience, to become educated as I've gotten older. For years, the only things I could, and would learn were within the narrow spectrums of my interests.
You cannot get someone to learn if they don't want to......
I know the more I have opened my eyes and my mind, especially here, the more I've learned.
Originally posted by zeuszen:
A two-year-old is likely to prefer candy to broccoli, yet we both know which of the two holds more nutritional value. |
Funny analogy.....my daughter loved broccoli from the get-go and really to this day isn't much of a candy person.
She's the only non-meat eater in the house, too.
Neither of these have anything to do with her concern for nutrition, but it does speak of the sugar thing for sure. As I understand it through my readings, the desire for sugar is acquired.
Originally posted by zeuszen:
This polarity and the ensuing debate, I believe, is good soil to cultivate. |
Being a farm-type person, I would have to agree.....8>)
|
|
|
|
06/15/2009 08:20:53 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
As people spend hours and hours shopping for cameras with sharp lenses and low noise performance, they get so lost in those details they apply them everywhere...and worst of all, where they don't apply. I assume what we're seeing is people getting so lost or obsessed with taking sharp pictures (and all the other stuff) they miss the point of taking an image, in the first place. |
Hmmm ... I try to avoid that ...
Originally posted by pawdrix:
|
... my version:  |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 08:24:53 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Beauty & art are in the eye of the beholder. Personally I hate being told that I'm a Philistine just because I don't hold the same high opinion of some photographer that I'm just not into his work.
If I don't like it, I don't like it.......period. |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
The eye of the beholder, in his view, needs to be trained before its owner should be allowed to pass judgement. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I do like the picture quite a bit, but I sorta cluck at the "we're-so-awesome-cuz-we-identified-a-picture-and-they-are-cretins-because-they-didn't" crowd. |
Originally posted by lky623:
Wow, what a thread. How polarized we can be.
I'm just an average working joe, as such I tend to agree with Nikonjeb in that I know what I like and don't like.
So I need to be "trained" to appreciate "art"? Who will "train" me; some pretentious "my way or the highway-I know what art is-you don't" kind of person? I rather be trained by Nikonjeb... He seems to have more common sense about this whole discussion.
Just my 2 cents... |
Yet the thought that comes through is that you'd still like some insight, another point of view, or even perhaps just the story behind what's in the image.
What baffles me a lot is when someone really falls in love with an imaghe of mine and *has* to have it, the praise is effusive, the excitement palpable......
How the heck can someone become so enthusiastic about an image that they don't know the story behind?????
I know why *I* love an image that I captured/created......how can someone else possibly get that?
When I see an image that really moves me, I want to find the artist, and have him/her tell me the rest so I can truly know.
|
|
|
|
06/15/2009 08:27:50 PM · #111 |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 08:30:12 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What baffles me a lot is when someone really falls in love with an imaghe of mine and *has* to have it, the praise is effusive, the excitement palpable......
How the heck can someone become so enthusiastic about an image that they don't know the story behind????? |
That's not so hard to understand -- it may well depict a scene conceptually and conpositionally similar to some important event in their own life. I've never met Bob Dylan, but there is one of his songs which so reminds me of an uncomfortable period event in my own life I haven't been able to play it for some years ... |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 08:38:35 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What baffles me a lot is when someone really falls in love with an imaghe of mine and *has* to have it, the praise is effusive, the excitement palpable......
How the heck can someone become so enthusiastic about an image that they don't know the story behind????? |
That's not so hard to understand -- it may well depict a scene conceptually and conpositionally similar to some important event in their own life. I've never met Bob Dylan, but there is one of his songs which so reminds me of an uncomfortable period event in my own life I haven't been able to play it for some years ... |
Love Is Just a Four-Letter Word.....just guessing
Message edited by author 2009-06-15 20:39:07. |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 09:05:35 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
If I enjoy black velvet paintings of old mexicans smoking cigarettes, and fill my house with them, I'm not going to lose all my teeth, and while a lot of people might recoil in horror at my choice of art, it doesn't make it BAD. It just makes me different. |
Oh Edward, fear not.....
There are *SO* many things that make you different!.......8>)
|
|
|
|
06/15/2009 09:05:48 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I wasn't a) talking about tastes and thus b) the subsequent contention went south.
Talking about flaws! |
Originally posted by Mark-A:
It might be an idea to explain why the 2 year old prefers the candy over the broccoli because I guess it isn't that it simply looks nicer? But even if it was isn't that a form of taste? ;) |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Yes, for god's sake. My point (I thought it was obvious) was to stress the difference between taste and value. |
Originally posted by chromeydome:
What is valued is still a choice--in your example, the value was defined as nutrition--measurable and quantifiable, and so is objective, but not the only possible measure of value. But what is valued in any given situation is still a choice to be made by each of those participating--and the taste itself could easily be the thing of value, and much harder to measure, or agree upon.
Taste and Value: Not necessarily different. |
Oh, you'd have to read Pirsig to really get that.......8>)
|
|
|
|
06/15/2009 09:29:02 PM · #116 |
| One thing this discussion teaches me is that if I fill my house with black velvet paintings of Mexicans smoking cigarets I can keep all my teeth. Some things you just have to accept on authority in order to fill your head with happy smoke. Thank you, K10D. |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 09:34:59 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by tnun:
One thing this discussion teaches me is that if I fill my house with black velvet paintings of Mexicans smoking cigarets I can keep all my teeth. Some things you just have to accept on authority in order to fill your head with happy smoke. Thank you, K10D. |
That did it.
I finally choked on my sherry.
Fortunately I had another portion coming.
Thank you,  tnun.
I can stop watching this thread now.
:-))
|
|
|
|
06/15/2009 10:22:43 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I agree that most of this discussion boils down to education...or a lack of. It's not about snobbery or pretension. Simply put, some folks expose themselves to a lot more and can appreciate things on a different level. The food analogy is a good one.
As people spend hours and hours shopping for cameras with sharp lenses and low noise performance, they get so lost in those details they apply them everywhere...and worst of all, where they don't apply. I assume what we're seeing is people getting so lost or obsessed with taking sharp pictures (and all the other stuff) they miss the point of taking an image, in the first place.
Unsharp Decisive Moment
Based on Behind the Gare Saint-Lazare, 1932 -HCB
eta: A few minutes ago, over coffee, a friend of mine was just telling me how she wanted to clock a few people at a wedding, this past weekend and it reminded me of this thread. I ran out in a downpour and popped this one, just to throw it into the mix. |
This is exactly what I'm talking about.. the photo's I have seen so far in this thread by the famous Henry, all seem like they could be easily reproduced and god forbid..made better? all you needed in your photo was a street pole obstructing the scene, and you got it. And I doubt you were trying that hard..like you said..you just ran out and snapped one.
When I orignally critiqued the photo, I had virgin eyes..and I assumed it was a modern photo, and I judged it for what it was. It doesn't impress me much.
But for some reason, I want to look at it..and it sticks with me. |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 11:09:00 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by Intelli:
the photos...all seem like they could be easily reproduced |
and there's the rub...
until you go out and try to do this yourself, you really won't know just how easily reproducible they are. |
|
|
|
06/15/2009 11:21:11 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by Intelli:
When I orignally critiqued the photo, I had virgin eyes..and I assumed it was a modern photo, and I judged it for what it was. It doesn't impress me much.
But for some reason, I want to look at it..and it sticks with me. |
Hence the term art.
|
|
|
|
06/16/2009 02:13:26 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by Intelli:
When I orignally critiqued the photo, I had virgin eyes..and I assumed it was a modern photo, and I judged it for what it was. It doesn't impress me much.
But for some reason, I want to look at it..and it sticks with me. |
Hence the term art. |
Made me smile ;-) |
|
|
|
06/16/2009 02:41:28 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by tnun:
One thing this discussion teaches me is that if I fill my house with black velvet paintings of Mexicans smoking cigarets I can keep all my teeth. Some things you just have to accept on authority in order to fill your head with happy smoke. Thank you, K10D. |
I'm wondering if somehow this can be translated into something I could cross-stitch to hang on the wall in my declining years... |
|
|
|
06/16/2009 03:22:49 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by tnun:
One thing this discussion teaches me is that if I fill my house with black velvet paintings of Mexicans smoking cigarets I can keep all my teeth. Some things you just have to accept on authority in order to fill your head with happy smoke. Thank you, K10D. |
I'm wondering if somehow this can be translated into something I could cross-stitch to hang on the wall in my declining years... |
my gray cells are not gray any more. So i can not grasp everything fully. But whatever i could grasp, here it is:
One thing is that Mexicans can keep all my teeth. Some things just have to fill your head with K10D.
(plus something about cigarettes, perhaps i missed it)
Message edited by author 2009-06-16 03:23:28. |
|
|
|
06/16/2009 05:35:00 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by Intelli:
When I orignally critiqued the photo, I had virgin eyes..and I assumed it was a modern photo, and I judged it for what it was. It doesn't impress me much.
But for some reason, I want to look at it..and it sticks with me. |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Hence the term art. |
Art is sticky?
|
|
|
|
06/16/2009 08:51:02 AM · #125 |
Originally posted by Intelli:
This is exactly what I'm talking about.. the photo's I have seen so far in this thread by the famous Henry, all seem like they could be easily reproduced and god forbid..made better?
When I orignally critiqued the photo, I had virgin eyes..and I assumed it was a modern photo, and I judged it for what it was. It doesn't impress me much.
But for some reason, I want to look at it..and it sticks with me. |
First of all, my image pales in comparison to HCB's Gare Saint-Lazare. Not even in the ball park. More important to keep in mind is that it's easy to reproduce images when you know what to look for. That has NOTHING to do with this conversation. A monkey could do that.
The HCB images posted launched an entire genre. Try doing that. Not only are they strong images but almost everything we see today is a derivative of those shots (or those of his contemporaries). In fact, given the thousands of dollars I and others have spent on gear...digitally engineered lenses with VR, ergonomically designed camera bodies, AUTO FOCUS (!!!), the ability to take thousands of images a day, in-camera metering, computerized editing etc. his (HCB'C) stuff still blows the shit out of all the crap I see littering the internet, today. I doubt any of us could do much better technically without all the advantages we have.
It isn't sharp? Does it matter?
Is that the best people can come up with...?
A lot of folks seem to be high on camera steroids. This discussion is akin to comparing Barry Bonds to Babe Ruth.
Message edited by author 2009-06-16 09:53:51. |
|
