Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

04/11/2009 06:43:40 PM · #2051

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I dunno if you're going to get an apology, but I think you may get some clarification.....Jason's pretty good about that.

Thanks for thinking well of me Jeb. I was doing it while you typed. :) It's Easter weekend and I have family all over. This thread is not a priority at the moment.

04/11/2009 07:06:34 PM · #2052

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The flitting from flower to flower wasn't meant as an insult at all. I have hummingbirds outside my window here and they struck me as exactly how I see things. Taking a sip here...taking a sip there. Never committing to anything. It never struck me as "feminine" and I think I would have used the analogy for a man as well. Why would you be upset with a feminine analogy anyway? You are a woman, aren't you?

I understand I have been straightforward with how I see your beliefs. I do not mean it in a derogatory way, but Rant threads allow for open disagreement. How many times have I had my beliefs castigated on these threads by those who don't agree with me? Sometimes they sting, but after a bit I understand it's just people voicing their own opinion. Good Lord, this very thread probably has 50-75 posts where I'm accused of being an intolerant boob. I'm not too worried about it. I've worked to try to avoid directly insulting language. To the extent I have failed at that, I apologize.

Bear, you slipped my mind. You do play the mediator. Believe it or not, I view myself as a mediator, but realize on many of these threads I become the only vocal component of one side of the argument. Because of that I'm forced to play that side to balance the conversation. I also fully realize that in Rant you have to play, as I said elsewhere, a "tight game". Shannon will never concede an inch in a debate because it's easiest that way. Show a moment of "weakness" and you will get eaten up. If we were to have the same conversation over a few beers, I bet it would go far differently.

Yea but I'm not a hummingbird. I'm a person. If I compared you to a donkey stubbornly sitting on one side of a fence believing that's where the food was, while the other animals were on the other side with food, would you not be insulted? You are not as dumb as a donkey, and I am not as dumb as a humming bird. I understand analogy and the fact that they are not always meant as insults, but between the "flitting" and then the "nail in the jello" analogies I did not feel respected.

But ok I'll play along with your metaphor in a way that is more fitting. There is a reason humming birds do what they do. It serves a purpose. It's not something to be made fun of or seen as inferior to your view of the world. People like me are the pollinators. If there weren't any, there would be no flowers. I guess that makes you a flower, rooted down. So in other words, I'm not flaky, I'm a necessary part of society, as are you (sans the arrogance). To me, people who are TOO strong in their beliefs are like flowers closing up and saying "go away, don't pollinate me!" I do commit. I commit 100% to always seeking more information. I see nothing wrong with that.

The reasons I would be upset with a feminine analogy go further than I care to explain in this thread. I would LOVE to start another feminism thread that doesn't get overtaken by a couple nut jobs calling me a man hater like the last. But I don't know if that is possible. And that sure took a lot out of me. One person went so far as PMs (which I stupidly kept responding to), and even following me into an unrelated thread accusing me of one thing or another.

04/11/2009 08:53:25 PM · #2053

I'm not trying to come after you personally. If you are getting offended I'll just cease and desist.

04/11/2009 09:59:09 PM · #2054

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm not trying to come after you personally. If you are getting offended I'll just cease and desist.

You may not have tried to but you did. We weren't even talking about gays any more, just dissecting my world view.

I would be glad to get back on the topic of gay rights with anyone who chooses to discuss it.

04/11/2009 10:38:00 PM · #2055

So I am in love with the Ditty Bops. For those that haven't heard of them, they are a female musical duo that plays guitar and mandolin along with a band of boys. Their songs are lighthearted and fun. They have been together over 8 years now and just got married in Cali before gay marriage was banned. Not sure what that means for them in the future though, I haven't been keeping up with it as much as I'd like to.

Press Photos

Their Myspace Music Page

I loved their music for 2 years before I even realized they were a lesbian couple. When I came to the realization from a small wikipedia snippet a friend of mine looked at me like I was an alien and was said "duh Monica! It took you 2 years to figure that out?" Guess that means I didn't make assumptions just because they were a girl band.

Anyway. I was so happy they could be married! They are talented and beautiful but also strong and opinionated women. They toured by bike across the country with their equipment and band mates in a biodeisel van. The next tour they did in regular venues and on farms to support local farming communities. They have been strong supporters of using tote bags instead of plastic at stores. I use tote bags now because before it had never even crossed my mind.

They are truly in inspiration.

Just thought I'd share.

04/11/2009 11:06:37 PM · #2056

Originally posted by escapetooz:

To me, people who are TOO strong in their beliefs are like flowers closing up and saying "go away, don't pollinate me!"

As an olive branch, I'll share a self-depricating story from dinner with my family tonight where my wife busted on me because according to her, "I'd be happy with the same salad dressing for the rest of my life..." :) Can I help it if I'm a balsamic vinagrette kinda guy?

Message edited by author 2009-04-11 23:06:44.

04/11/2009 11:11:21 PM · #2057

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
To me, people who are TOO strong in their beliefs are like flowers closing up and saying "go away, don't pollinate me!"

As an olive branch, I'll share a self-depricating story from dinner with my family tonight where my wife busted on me because according to her, "I'd be happy with the same salad dressing for the rest of my life..." :) Can I help it if I'm a balsamic vinagrette kinda guy?

:) No, and that's been my point is I don't care what salad dressing you use. But when you knock on my caesar there's gunna be some issues!

04/11/2009 11:55:54 PM · #2058

Originally posted by escapetooz:

:) No, and that's been my point is I don't care what salad dressing you use. But when you knock on my caesar there's gunna be some issues!

CAESAR!?! Damn you!

04/12/2009 12:40:39 AM · #2059

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

:) No, and that's been my point is I don't care what salad dressing you use. But when you knock on my caesar there's gunna be some issues!

CAESAR!?! Damn you!

Yea what! Deal with it!

;P

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

04/13/2009 04:08:38 PM · #2060

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The flitting from flower to flower wasn't meant as an insult at all. I have hummingbirds outside my window here and they struck me as exactly how I see things. Taking a sip here...taking a sip there. Never committing to anything. It never struck me as "feminine" and I think I would have used the analogy for a man as well. Why would you be upset with a feminine analogy anyway? You are a woman, aren't you?

I understand I have been straightforward with how I see your beliefs. I do not mean it in a derogatory way, but Rant threads allow for open disagreement. How many times have I had my beliefs castigated on these threads by those who don't agree with me? Sometimes they sting, but after a bit I understand it's just people voicing their own opinion. Good Lord, this very thread probably has 50-75 posts where I'm accused of being an intolerant boob. I'm not too worried about it. I've worked to try to avoid directly insulting language. To the extent I have failed at that, I apologize.

Bear, you slipped my mind. You do play the mediator. Believe it or not, I view myself as a mediator, but realize on many of these threads I become the only vocal component of one side of the argument. Because of that I'm forced to play that side to balance the conversation. I also fully realize that in Rant you have to play, as I said elsewhere, a "tight game". Shannon will never concede an inch in a debate because it's easiest that way. Show a moment of "weakness" and you will get eaten up. If we were to have the same conversation over a few beers, I bet it would go far differently.

Oh... just to be contrary...

Hummingbirds are extraordinarily committed. They are committed to desperately, feverishly seeking out nectar for most of each day to provide enough energy to sustain their incredible metabolisms. They are INTENSELY FOCUSED creatures diligently hunting for a scarce resource lest they drop dead of starvation in short order.

Apparently, one's worldview or interpretation of the things they see around them can be almost diametrically opposed to another's, on even the most simple of factual issues. We see it right here in this thread.

Where I feel the counter-productive comes into play is the assertion/insertion of a judgmental interpretation: 'never committing'. DrAchoo doesn't compare escapetooz to 'a hummingbird', but to 'someone that can not commit' by way of a hummingbird analogy. That is undoubtedly a negative criticism in this context, since it was meant to be the counterexample to his superior 'committed' viewpoint. This is not "you are as beautiful as the glittering throat of a hummingbird". It's a slight meant to diminish the worth of escapetooz's arguments by implying they are not as valuable because they come from disparate sources. That they are ungrounded. It's an advertisement for the superiority of opinions based on the bible alone.

I'd like to think a more appropriate analogy is that nectar can be had from any number of sources in small amounts, and that relying too heavily on only one is a recipe for starvation.

And hey Doc... nobody's forced to balance anything and everything. Sometimes positions are not equal. If you're here to only play devil's advocate or bring 'balance' out of a sense of abstract fairness because it soothes you, why not just take your leave? If that's not the case, and you're here because you're honestly worried that abandoning your position will be to the detriment of humanity, more power to you. But if you're here just because SOMEONE needs to balance the opinions of those here who would support my equal rights... there's another obvious choice. Join us.

David Ey

Nikon D80

04/13/2009 06:05:32 PM · #2061

Which brings us to another non-liberal thought. In nature, those who don't work don't eat and therefore die. Natural, isn't it?

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/13/2009 06:16:30 PM · #2062

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by Mousie:

Another thing I'd like to address is the seeming dismissal of the opinions of people who have not actually read the Bible. Having never read the Bible myself, but having taken numerous college level religion and philosophy courses, as well as a lifetime of extremely close attention paid to what I quite literally think of as my enemy (so long as I am made to be their scapegoat), I think that much can be said about the Bible, Christianity, or religion in general that's worthy, even without direct experience. Much like the discussions of astronomers who haven't walked the surface of the sun.

I'm not going to address your main point because there isn't anything there that seems wrong in what you say, so I pulled the last quote because that I differ with you on that. Even if you pray at the altar of capitalism, you should read Marx's "Das Capital". If you think Hitler was the embodiment of evil, you still ought to read "Mein Kamph". And even though you have had nothing but bad experiences dealing with Christians you ought to read the Bible. It is the book that inspired Martin Luther King, and Bishop Gene Robinson, as well as Reverend Jerry Falwell and Anita Bryant.

It is true that there is enough religion in our cultural zeitgeist that you can know the broad strokes of the story, in the same way a person who has never read Melville knows that "Moby Dick" is about a whale. But limiting your thoughts on any important book to your reactions to what others have told you of their reactions is... very limiting. I have friends who go to ashrams or study Tibetan Buddism, but have no interest in western theological thought. In our liberal (as in liberal education not left wing) society we tend to see interest in religion as the hallmark of the narrow minded, which of course is a silly prejudice. Intentionally limiting your knowledge can never be the proof of broadmindedness.

I fully intend to read the Bible at some point. I have a quite nice leather-bound copy of the KJV on my 'to be read' shelf. It just has a lower priority than, say, the latest Chuck Palanhiuk book. And has for over a decade.

To be clear, I'm not advocating a dismissal of the text. It's a book like any other. Nor have I set it aside due to any distaste for my opponents. What I am trying to get across is my displeasure at the response some people have had towards those of us who haven't actually read its pages cover to cover. Look for it! We are oft dismissed out of hand, much like you seem to think I have dismissed the Bible.

There is a lot more to religion than the Bible, despite what many Christians would like to think. There is much to be learned from the various religious events, movements, and personalities... the Martin Luthers, the Inquisitions, the latest political schisms... everything subsequent to the publication of this book. Just because one has not read the Bible with any diligence as a work on it's own does not mean one is intentionally limiting their knowledge or isn't conversant on the subject and how it intersects their lives.

You suggest that I shouldn't listen to other people's interpretations of the book, and should form my own opinions... You can't seriously be advocating the elimination of the position "Minister", can you?

(I just find it a bit ironic that a book which has historically been the purview of a religious elite who's specific job it was to interpret the 'word of God' for the masses, lest they form their own ideas about it, is now being used as the referent in a "You should really find out for yourself" assertion.)

Message edited by author 2009-04-13 18:51:46.

04/13/2009 06:29:24 PM · #2063

Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The flitting from flower to flower wasn't meant as an insult at all. I have hummingbirds outside my window here and they struck me as exactly how I see things. Taking a sip here...taking a sip there. Never committing to anything. It never struck me as "feminine" and I think I would have used the analogy for a man as well. Why would you be upset with a feminine analogy anyway? You are a woman, aren't you?

I understand I have been straightforward with how I see your beliefs. I do not mean it in a derogatory way, but Rant threads allow for open disagreement. How many times have I had my beliefs castigated on these threads by those who don't agree with me? Sometimes they sting, but after a bit I understand it's just people voicing their own opinion. Good Lord, this very thread probably has 50-75 posts where I'm accused of being an intolerant boob. I'm not too worried about it. I've worked to try to avoid directly insulting language. To the extent I have failed at that, I apologize.

Bear, you slipped my mind. You do play the mediator. Believe it or not, I view myself as a mediator, but realize on many of these threads I become the only vocal component of one side of the argument. Because of that I'm forced to play that side to balance the conversation. I also fully realize that in Rant you have to play, as I said elsewhere, a "tight game". Shannon will never concede an inch in a debate because it's easiest that way. Show a moment of "weakness" and you will get eaten up. If we were to have the same conversation over a few beers, I bet it would go far differently.

Oh... just to be contrary...

Hummingbirds are extraordinarily committed. They are committed to desperately, feverishly seeking out nectar for most of each day to provide enough energy to sustain their incredible metabolisms. They are INTENSELY FOCUSED creatures diligently hunting for a scarce resource lest they drop dead of starvation in short order.

Apparently, one's worldview or interpretation of the things they see around them can be almost diametrically opposed to another's, on even the most simple of factual issues. We see it right here in this thread.

Where I feel the counter-productive comes into play is the assertion/insertion of a judgmental interpretation: 'never committing'. DrAchoo doesn't compare escapetooz to 'a hummingbird', but to 'someone that can not commit' by way of a hummingbird analogy. That is undoubtedly a negative criticism in this context, since it was meant to be the counterexample to his superior 'committed' viewpoint. This is not "you are as beautiful as the glittering throat of a hummingbird". It's a slight meant to diminish the worth of escapetooz's arguments by implying they are not as valuable because they come from disparate sources. That they are ungrounded. It's an advertisement for the superiority of opinions based on the bible alone.

I'd like to think a more appropriate analogy is that nectar can be had from any number of sources in small amounts, and that relying too heavily on only one is a recipe for starvation.

And hey Doc... nobody's forced to balance anything and everything. Sometimes positions are not equal. If you're here to only play devil's advocate or bring 'balance' out of a sense of abstract fairness because it soothes you, why not just take your leave? If that's not the case, and you're here because you're honestly worried that abandoning your position will be to the detriment of humanity, more power to you. But if you're here just because SOMEONE needs to balance the opinions of those here who would support my equal rights... there's another obvious choice. Join us.

Thank you for this. I tried to express the same sentiment earlier but my words (as usual) were not as clear as yours.

I did say this though:

"I commit 100% to always seeking more information. I see nothing wrong with that."

Apparently my commitment isn't as good as taking the first thing that comes my way and running with that for the rest of my life...

04/13/2009 06:31:28 PM · #2064

Originally posted by Mousie:

And hey Doc... nobody's forced to balance anything and everything. Sometimes positions are not equal. If you're here to only play devil's advocate or bring 'balance' out of a sense of abstract fairness because it soothes you, why not just take your leave? If that's not the case, and you're here because you're honestly worried that abandoning your position will be to the detriment of humanity, more power to you. But if you're here just because SOMEONE needs to balance the opinions of those here who would support my equal rights... there's another obvious choice. Join us.

I think what I was saying here was I tend to be MUCH more moderate if my conversationalist is moderate as well. I just had an awesome discussion with Louis and I told him things I would never, ever be able to say on Rant. It's just not the nature of the beast. For one, these threads always wind up being six different conversations going at once. It's like one of those guys playing chess against six opponents in the park. I'm sure his game is different compared to playing against a single opponent over some wine a bree.

As much as it would be easier to join you Mousie, you know I can't. It would be the nice thing to do, but not the right one.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/13/2009 06:34:22 PM · #2065

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Mousie:
And hey Doc... nobody's forced to balance anything and everything. Sometimes positions are not equal. If you're here to only play devil's advocate or bring 'balance' out of a sense of abstract fairness because it soothes you, why not just take your leave? If that's not the case, and you're here because you're honestly worried that abandoning your position will be to the detriment of humanity, more power to you. But if you're here just because SOMEONE needs to balance the opinions of those here who would support my equal rights... there's another obvious choice. Join us.

I think what I was saying here was I tend to be MUCH more moderate if my conversationalist is moderate as well. I just had an awesome discussion with Louis and I told him things I would never, ever be able to say on Rant. It's just not the nature of the beast. For one, these threads always wind up being six different conversations going at once. It's like one of those guys playing chess against six opponents in the park. I'm sure his game is different compared to playing against a single opponent over some wine a bree.

As much as it would be easier to join you Mousie, you know I can't. It would be the nice thing to do, but not the right one.

And why is it nice but not right? Lets get back to the meat of this topic. WHY? Does God oppose equal rights? Just like for women, for blacks, for Jews, for whoever. And EVEN IF you think God does. What happened to separation of church and state?

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/13/2009 06:52:49 PM · #2066

Originally posted by Mousie:

You suggest that I shouldn't listen to other people's interpretations of the book, and should form my own opinions... You can't seriously be advocating the elimination of the position "Minister", can you?

I do think you should listen to others' opinions, why else would be be batting this around on a forum? And I think that "Minister" is a valuable label like "Doctor" or "Professor". And while those learned men ought to have due weight given to their opinions, following blindly can lead to the sad fates of followers of Jim Jones or David Koresh.

I don't think you have to read the Bible to be a good person, and there are plenty of folks who seem to think it is the only book worth reading, who do more evil than good in this world. As for Palahniuk, I liked a few then gave up after "Snuff". Yuck. Not my cup of tea. But that dosen't mean his legion of fans are wrong, they just have a higher tolerance for viscera.

04/13/2009 07:02:42 PM · #2067

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Mousie:
And hey Doc... nobody's forced to balance anything and everything. Sometimes positions are not equal. If you're here to only play devil's advocate or bring 'balance' out of a sense of abstract fairness because it soothes you, why not just take your leave? If that's not the case, and you're here because you're honestly worried that abandoning your position will be to the detriment of humanity, more power to you. But if you're here just because SOMEONE needs to balance the opinions of those here who would support my equal rights... there's another obvious choice. Join us.

I think what I was saying here was I tend to be MUCH more moderate if my conversationalist is moderate as well. I just had an awesome discussion with Louis and I told him things I would never, ever be able to say on Rant. It's just not the nature of the beast. For one, these threads always wind up being six different conversations going at once. It's like one of those guys playing chess against six opponents in the park. I'm sure his game is different compared to playing against a single opponent over some wine a bree.

As much as it would be easier to join you Mousie, you know I can't. It would be the nice thing to do, but not the right one.

And why is it nice but not right? Lets get back to the meat of this topic. WHY? Does God oppose equal rights? Just like for women, for blacks, for Jews, for whoever. And EVEN IF you think God does. What happened to separation of church and state?

Oh man, I'd think 2067 posts would have made that clear. ALL of that has been discussed. Heck, even the separation of church and state probably took a good 300 post detour.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/13/2009 07:11:00 PM · #2068

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Mousie:
And hey Doc... nobody's forced to balance anything and everything. Sometimes positions are not equal. If you're here to only play devil's advocate or bring 'balance' out of a sense of abstract fairness because it soothes you, why not just take your leave? If that's not the case, and you're here because you're honestly worried that abandoning your position will be to the detriment of humanity, more power to you. But if you're here just because SOMEONE needs to balance the opinions of those here who would support my equal rights... there's another obvious choice. Join us.

I think what I was saying here was I tend to be MUCH more moderate if my conversationalist is moderate as well. I just had an awesome discussion with Louis and I told him things I would never, ever be able to say on Rant. It's just not the nature of the beast. For one, these threads always wind up being six different conversations going at once. It's like one of those guys playing chess against six opponents in the park. I'm sure his game is different compared to playing against a single opponent over some wine a bree.

As much as it would be easier to join you Mousie, you know I can't. It would be the nice thing to do, but not the right one.

And why is it nice but not right? Lets get back to the meat of this topic. WHY? Does God oppose equal rights? Just like for women, for blacks, for Jews, for whoever. And EVEN IF you think God does. What happened to separation of church and state?

Oh man, I'd think 2067 posts would have made that clear. ALL of that has been discussed. Heck, even the separation of church and state probably took a good 300 post detour.

And yet we are still here. :P

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/13/2009 07:12:58 PM · #2069

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Oh man, I'd think 2067 posts would have made that clear. ALL of that has been discussed. Heck, even the separation of church and state probably took a good 300 post detour.

LOL I'm not at all certain that we made anything clear, but we certainly trampled the ground and raised a lot of dust!

04/13/2009 07:14:55 PM · #2070

Originally posted by escapetooz:

And yet we are still here. :P

Well, I'm clear on it. Maybe you still need to commit. ;)

You know, I avoided for a long time joking about the committment factor and the fact you are bisexual, but you gotta see at least a bit of humor in that right? I'm not going to hold your feet to the flames over it, and I'm just saying this in a 100% light-hearted spirit, but it makes me chuckle. I'm sure there's gotta be some Seinfeld quote I could use at the moment.

Message edited by author 2009-04-13 19:15:05.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/13/2009 07:23:57 PM · #2071

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
And yet we are still here. :P

Well, I'm clear on it. Maybe you still need to commit. ;)

You know, I avoided for a long time joking about the committment factor and the fact you are bisexual, but you gotta see at least a bit of humor in that right? I'm not going to hold your feet to the flames over it, and I'm just saying this in a 100% light-hearted spirit, but it makes me chuckle. I'm sure there's gotta be some Seinfeld quote I could use at the moment.

Ah but even in jest you are missing something key. I'm a monogamist. It doesn't matter which gender, I still pick one person. In other words I give myself more options but at the end of the day, there is still only one person in my bed.

Which is more than can be said for many people, gay, straight, or bi!

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/13/2009 07:28:20 PM · #2072

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Well, I'm clear on it. Maybe you still need to commit. ;)

To use your CS Lewis analogy of the many rooms off the hallway, some of us are committed, but we are committed to the hallway. I know to those who have settled in one room for the rest of their lives it looks indecisive, but it is not, we have made a well studied and rational decision not to limit our lives to one room. We might visit your room and take something from it, but then we are called to see what is next door.

There is nothing wrong with marrying your grade school sweetheart, and living out your life in the town you were born in, working in the family business till the day you die. But choosing not to does not mean you can't make up your mind.

I know folks who see my photography as a waste of time, time that could be spent productively, and time away from work can be seen as failing to commit to the job, whether that time is spent taking photographs, with friends and family, or at church. if I did only one of those things I would be better at it, but I choose not to make that choice.

04/13/2009 07:32:33 PM · #2073

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Serial monogamy to me is an oxymoron. And how many people actually have more than one person in their bed at a time? That's the world of porn and teenage boob movies.

04/13/2009 07:36:04 PM · #2074

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Well, I'm clear on it. Maybe you still need to commit. ;)

To use your CS Lewis analogy of the many rooms off the hallway, some of us are committed, but we are committed to the hallway. I know to those who have settled in one room for the rest of their lives it looks indecisive, but it is not, we have made a well studied and rational decision not to limit our lives to one room. We might visit your room and take something from it, but then we are called to see what is next door.

'Tis true. I guess I'll just say it's the least understandable position to me. I'm not saying nobody takes it, but I don't quite get it. I can understand the atheist and identify with him much better.

I did catch some flavor of agnosticism in Monica's post where she answered my questions about her view of God and I can respect that view somewhat. I don't quite know what position you fall in, although I'd guess it was along these lines as well. I could be wrong about it though.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II