Bright Sky, Dark Subject Advice Please

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

04/11/2009 04:44:33 AM · #1

Can anyone help please.
Yesterday I tried to take a picture of a large black train on a miserable day where the sky was a very bright grey.

The problem I faced was that within basic editing I was struggling to get any definition on the train without totally blowing out the sky.
Conversely if I stopped right down the black train became grainy when I tried to recover it in photoshop.

I suppose a graduated filter might have helped but I didn't have one.

I was using a Nikon D200 with a Sigma 50mm Prime F2.8 Macro.

Any suggestions very much appreciated.

Will....

aliqui

Nikon D300s

04/11/2009 05:00:58 AM · #2

You can try Selective Color, but I imagine it won't come out pretty.

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

04/11/2009 05:17:40 AM · #3

Originally posted by aliqui:
You can try Selective Color, but I imagine it won't come out pretty.

Yeah I tried that but due to the image being full of blacks and greys it didn't really have much impact

see

Canon PowerShot S95

04/11/2009 05:21:36 AM · #4

Seems the experts here would open adjustment layers in levels and in curves and work back and forth between the 2. Curves and I don't get along for some reason, but you might have better luck.

zxaar

04/11/2009 06:21:00 AM · #5

sony cams have DRO function, i am not sure about nikons. You could try to find out whether your cam has something like this or not.

spiritualspatula

04/11/2009 06:57:15 AM · #6

Are you asking for remedies for the future or a PS fix for this image? Basically, are you willing to reshoot it?

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

04/11/2009 07:20:47 AM · #7

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Are you asking for remedies for the future or a PS fix for this image? Basically, are you willing to reshoot it?

I can't reshoot unfortunately, so I'm mainly asking for advice for the future although if you have any good ideas about how to improve things in PS
that I haven't already tried I would be most willing to try.

Message edited by author 2009-04-11 07:21:50.

kevip6

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/11/2009 07:34:31 AM · #8

For the future, if you have to get it all in a single shot you're either going to need to darken the sky with a ND Grad Filter (or 2), or you could try lighting the train with a bit of flash, if you choose the later then off camera flash would be better and try to avoid reflections. The ND Grads would be the best option if you simply must get it all in a single shot.

Otherwise Bracket the exposures and combine them later.

spiritualspatula

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

04/11/2009 07:40:56 AM · #9

kevip6 just summed up everything I would recommend to you.
If you wanted to send it to me I could mess with it a bit and see what I could get out of it and describe the steps for you. No gurantee of wonders. Ha. Respond here if you want me to check it out and I'll PM my address.
I can accept up to 20MB, RAW preferred.

Message edited by author 2009-04-11 07:41:44.

04/11/2009 07:57:15 AM · #10

Many thanks for the advice I think I'll be getting a filter

jettyimages

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

04/11/2009 08:17:22 AM · #11

Hi, I know you already have a lot of good advice here, but do you have Active D Lighting on the D200? The D300 has it, and it really helps when you're unable to capture more than one shot to do a combined exposure (such as when something's moving). If you do have it, throw it on to high and leave it there, it will slow your fast shutter release down a bit but its worth it. All your fill light and recovery adjustments in PS or lightroom become much easier. Your raw image will still look pretty contrasty, but you'll find you can use levels, curves, fill light and recovery with much greater success.

The only other thing I could point you to with the shot you've already taken is to have a look at phototools pro - its a photoshop plugin, I think they give a 30 day demo. They have an amazing digital fill flash feature there that really doesn't produce any discernible noise or grain and brings up the light perfectly, plus its adjustable as a layer in PS. Worth a try maybe if you like the shot in general.

Message edited by author 2009-04-11 08:17:40.

spiritualspatula

04/11/2009 08:39:19 AM · #12

You can apply ADL to images IF you have Capture NX, but you can't in camera with a D200. This is what I do anyway (apply it in Capture if I want to) because I prefer to just shoot in RAW and apply it as necessary. It increases noise in shadows and can make things look rather flat. Having said that, there are times when it works wonders, though I would say it's highlight recovery is of questionable usefulness (in my experience). A combination of curves, D-lighting, exposure comp and light use of photomatix are what I've found work the best for pulling details out of shadowed areas.

Message edited by author 2009-04-11 08:40:07.

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

04/11/2009 08:41:48 AM · #13

Hi Trish

Thanks for your input.
I'm pretty sure that active D lighting is a feature of the D300 / D3 an not the D200.
However I'm wondering if this is the same as using D-Lighting in NX Capture

I just tried NX Capture and to be honest I think that Shadow and Highlights within CS4 work better

Message edited by author 2009-04-11 08:43:36.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

04/11/2009 09:08:22 AM · #14

I have the same exact problem! I wonder if we were shooting the same exact scene :)

I'm using photoshop elements, and I used the lighting->shadows/highlights option. I believe this is legal in basic... (please correct me, someone, if it's not!!) It didn't do a spectacular job, by any means, but it certainly helped!

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

04/11/2009 09:15:01 AM · #15

Originally posted by vawendy:

Hey Wendy if you and I were shooting the exact same scene one of us has a pretty impresive lens and it's not me lol

My feeling is that Shadow and Highlights is legal in Basic as it applies it to the whole image.
One thing I have noticed is that this function is better in CS4 than it was in Elements

Message edited by author 2009-04-11 09:15:37.

aliqui

Nikon D300s

04/11/2009 02:25:22 PM · #16

Originally posted by Lutchenko:

Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm using photoshop elements, and I used the lighting->shadows/highlights option. I believe this is legal in basic... (please correct me, someone, if it's not!!)

My feeling is that Shadow and Highlights is legal in Basic as it applies it to the whole image.

Yes, it is legal.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/11/2009 03:00:49 PM · #17

This sounds like a typical situation where HDR processing would help, if you can take multiple exposures with different settings. You can also come close to this if you have a single RAW image and "develop" different exposures to combine in HDR.

Another workaround if you have only a single (non-RAW) image is to create separate masks for the sky and foreground areas, and apply different Curves (or Levels) through the masks (see example below). Not legal for Basic editing though ...

Original:

Edited:

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

04/11/2009 03:16:48 PM · #18

But we need a basic editing solution. Can you do a gradient thingy in basic?

Yo_Spiff

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

04/11/2009 03:34:07 PM · #19

Under basic rules you are fairly limited. in advanced editing I might toss the raw into photomatix, or do several raw adjustment for the sky and foreground and then layer them.

A couple of ideas that may help under basic.

-If your sky and foreground colors are very different, you may be able to tweak just a certain color range. This is legal in basic.

-Careful use of curves, or highlight/shadow may help to adjust the areas differently.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

04/12/2009 03:37:02 AM · #20

Many thanks everyone I really appreciate your advice.
It seems that for basic challenges it would be a good idea to invest in a grad filter if I'm going to shoot in these conditions again
which is likely as I live in the UK lol.

I have a Cokin ND filter, the square one, and was just thinking that I may have been able to use that positioned just over the sky part
of the fram, but again within basic editing I suspect I would see the edge of the filter and wouldn't be able to remove it.

Off to the camera shop I guess.

Thanks again all.

dswann

Nikon D7000

04/12/2009 10:51:17 AM · #21

Does anyone know if the processing of a single image through HDR software is allowed on basic editing? Not as good as using multiple exposures, but I've read that it can help a medium contrasty scene. (I had the same problems as Lutchenko with photographing trains yesterday).

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/12/2009 11:12:24 AM · #22

I have a vision of a challenge full of very dark trains and bright white over exposed sky lol

I have a feeling that HDR of any description may not be allowed within Basic, but hey you never know.

Message edited by author 2009-04-12 11:23:06.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

04/12/2009 11:50:33 AM · #23

Basic rules allow only a single capture. HDR-processing is one of the advantages of the Advanced rules ...

jettyimages