Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

04/10/2009 09:43:51 PM · #2028

Originally posted by David Ey:

What church is that Jeb?

Cedar Street Mennonite Church in Chambersburg, Pennsylvania.

04/11/2009 02:43:12 AM · #2029

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
I don't understand why you can say these kinds of things and get away with it but somehow when I do I get my age brought up,

The only context that I thought your age was relevant in was I thought that you said you had tried to slog through the Bible and gave up. I meant to say that you might try again in a few years. I have tried to read James Joyce's "Ulysses" every decade or so, and I think I'm getting more out of it but it defeats me every time. I may die before I finish that book, but it means so much to people I respect, that I'd like to understand what they see in it. If I finish it, I doubt the scales will fall from my eyes and I will tread into a bright tomorrow, but I will try again in a few years.

Oh no, I understand that. It wasn't your initial comment that got me, it was subsequent ones in the conversation that came after, and comments I've encountered in other forums. And just a general attitude. Like the Doc saying I flitted around on flowers when I seriously doubt he would use that sort of language referring to a man with my same beliefs.

04/11/2009 02:50:24 AM · #2030

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
You're making a horrible assumption that people like Monica and I flit away the second that something becomes uncomfortable.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
I went to several different churches with my friends who were all trying to "save" me, and every time I thought I started to like one something would get me, turn me off to it.

Can you see why I may have this impression?

As far as tough questions go, believe me, I ask lots of those in Church. So far nobody has kicked me out.

Here we go again with the CHERRY PICKING. You are REALLY good at it.

You know what. I CAN'T see why you have this impression. Just because I didn't stick to the first church or any others I went to blindly, regardless of what they said or taught still does NOT make any of your impressions correct. When I say "something would get me" I meant like... oh... well my favorite one began this long rampage about giving the church money. Money money money. And I said you know what. This crap isn't about God. God doesn't care about money. So why does NOT going to a church I don't agree with every Sunday mean that I flit among flowers and leave when "things get uncomfortable". Life as a young female, feminist, bisexual, "atheist" is VERY uncomfortable. If I wanted comfort, I would have stayed with the damn church and would keep my mouth shut on my beliefs. But I don't. Your logic is so backwards it baffles me.

I think you owe me an apology. I bring up point after point and yet you still treat me like an imbecile picking on one sentence because you can't seem to get your brain around my ENTIRE point. Why? Because my point is valid, and when you can't argue against that you start pointing fingers acting like a child.

You need to learn some respect and common decency.

04/11/2009 02:58:38 AM · #2031

Back on the subject of the thread. My girlfriend and I just went to a small college Gay dance, "Gayla" and it was pretty fun! And I saw the most beautiful Tranny at the after party at a the local gay bar. My goodness, she was hotter than me. She really was meant to be a woman.

I'm done getting insulted. I think I came on here half expecting an apology from the Doc, hoping he'd realize his error in judgment, but that was foolish. No such resolve has been made.

So if you'll excuse me. My beautiful girlfriend is patiently waiting for me to stop doing these foolish internet things. And I am waiting for myself to stop wasting time on people who are judgmental fools on their soap boxes talking about "resolve" and thinking they've got me figured out. Will I ever learn it is futile? No probably not. I am a hopeless optimist.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

04/11/2009 05:56:59 AM · #2032

Originally posted by escapetooz:

If it makes you feel any better, the frustration you are feeling is pretty typical when you have thoughts, ideas, and beliefs outside the normally accepted parameters. I have been frustrated my entire life because of my views on women, men, religion, sexual orientation, and ethnicism. I really think that people should be just accepted, and embraced as the wonderful creatures that they are, given the benefit of the doubt, and encouraged to develop the person that they are.

For all too many people, this is unacceptable to the point where they feel that they have to tell anyone that doesn't fit their idea of "The way it should be" how to live, think, and be.

Only when they step into your space with the idea of imposing their will on you should they be shied away from and treated warily.

I will NEVER understand why people think that way. It's fundamentally wrong.

I am curious and fascinated at the differences that we all have from growing up to the inate differences that make up humanity.....to me, the differences are wondrous and interesting, not wrong and threatening.

IMNSHO, Jason doesn't need to apologize for being who he is and thinking the way that he does, instead, I have to try to explain why I am the way I am in such a manner that he sees that I am a good and decent man who is searching just as he is, yet if my journey takes me down a different path, I would hope that he sees it as just that....different, and that my journey is just as valid, to me, as his is to him. Hopefully, there is something interesting to him about the way that I think, and he to me, and we both go our ways a little bit wiser.

What I hope to get out of these threads is a different point of view expressed in such a manner that is so awe inspiring in its description that it makes me want to check it out. All too often I get set back on my heels because it seems that different POVs are merely offered up as the be all to end all, and when I ask why, I get a cold reception. That is not always the case, but all too often.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

04/11/2009 01:28:57 PM · #2033

I just got caught up here. I want to make one thing clear:

In my last post I talked about how I think true closed-mindedness is the act of debunking a theory, a position, or a religion without taking the time to first understand it. I didn't mean, in that post, to be directing it at Monica, but clearly she thinks that's what I was doing. And this isn't the case, I find her actually to be *asking* questions and seeking to *understand* all sides of the issue, and I'm all for that.

There are, however, *other* participants in these DPC religion-debate threads who don't make that attempt...

R.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/11/2009 02:21:57 PM · #2034

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I have the grounding of Scripture and my faith. Now does that mean I don't evaluate, adjust and adapt? No. But having a reference point makes it more likely for me to learn the difficult or inconvenient lessons. I cannot flit from flower to flower taking only what feels good and moving on as soon as I run into something that makes me uncomfortable. The Bible, and my faith, for better or worse, is the foundation of my life. I have chosen this fate and I will stand by it even though the world changes about me.

Having a reference point (the Bible, specifically) makes it more likely for you to learn your lessons? You don't take only what feels good and run from everything else?

That, right there, is why I find the faithful so infuriatingly arrogant. Oh the insinuations. I had a physical reaction when I read that. I was aghast!

I have a reference point. It's called my family and the communities I've belonged to. Just like you. It's called everything I've ever done in my goddamn life. Just like you. And if you want to talk about walking right into difficult situations that don't make me feel good... well here I am! Standing up for my right to exist as an equal in the face of relentless societal pressure telling me to disappear from sight. Telling me I'm evil! Telling me I'm trying to destroy the world!

Haven't you seen the latest $1.5M TV ad that's airing nationally?

The ironically named National Organization For Marriage, a rainbow coalition coming together in love!

Watch it. Listen to what I have to stand up against every. single. day. Do you think it's PLEASANT to hold a position that more people than not believe makes you the PROBLEM?

Sure, I pick and choose my beliefs. I have over my whole life. It's called growth. I'd posit we all do this. I just don't pretend my beliefs have any more authority than others based purely on their sources, I would hope it comes from their fairness, justice, logic, utility, and relevance.

I challenge anyone... ANYONE to spend a week in my presence and judge me as anything less than an excruciatingly moral man. Perhaps lazy, perhaps a bit needy, perhaps a bit abrasive... but certainly not EVIL. And I did it all without cracking the Bible or any other religious text. Amazing! That's the problem, see? It flies in the face of the religious worldview. That I could be anything but an amoral monster in the absence of God brings low his absolute authority. My pretend marriage insults the sacredness of their marriages. My being allowed to be seen in public actually HARMS their kids! The very acknowledgment of my existence is a corrosive force and temptation away from virtue.

Well good! That kind of sanctimonious virtue makes me sick.

Another thing I'd like to address is the seeming dismissal of the opinions of people who have not actually read the Bible. Having never read the Bible myself, but having taken numerous college level religion and philosophy courses, as well as a lifetime of extremely close attention paid to what I quite literally think of as my enemy (so long as I am made to be their scapegoat), I think that much can be said about the Bible, Christianity, or religion in general that's worthy, even without direct experience. Much like the discussions of astronomers who haven't walked the surface of the sun.

Message edited by author 2009-04-11 14:24:42.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/11/2009 03:26:30 PM · #2035

Originally posted by Mousie:

Another thing I'd like to address is the seeming dismissal of the opinions of people who have not actually read the Bible. Having never read the Bible myself, but having taken numerous college level religion and philosophy courses, as well as a lifetime of extremely close attention paid to what I quite literally think of as my enemy (so long as I am made to be their scapegoat), I think that much can be said about the Bible, Christianity, or religion in general that's worthy, even without direct experience. Much like the discussions of astronomers who haven't walked the surface of the sun.

I'm not going to address your main point because there isn't anything there that seems wrong in what you say, so I pulled the last quote because that I differ with you on that. Even if you pray at the altar of capitalism, you should read Marx's "Das Capital". If you think Hitler was the embodiment of evil, you still ought to read "Mein Kamph". And even though you have had nothing but bad experiences dealing with Christians you ought to read the Bible. It is the book that inspired Martin Luther King, and Bishop Gene Robinson, as well as Reverend Jerry Falwell and Anita Bryant.

It is true that there is enough religion in our cultural zeitgeist that you can know the broad strokes of the story, in the same way a person who has never read Melville knows that "Moby Dick" is about a whale. But limiting your thoughts on any important book to your reactions to what others have told you of their reactions is... very limiting. I have friends who go to ashrams or study Tibetan Buddism, but have no interest in western theological thought. In our liberal (as in liberal education not left wing) society we tend to see interest in religion as the hallmark of the narrow minded, which of course is a silly prejudice. Intentionally limiting your knowledge can never be the proof of broadmindedness.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

04/11/2009 04:31:25 PM · #2036

I'm impressed with many things you say Brennan even though I'm guessing there many be many things we differ on. You seem to be a voice of mediation which tends to be lacking in these threads.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

04/11/2009 04:36:56 PM · #2037

Originally posted by Mousie:

I just don't pretend my beliefs have any more authority than others based purely on their sources, I would hope it comes from their fairness, justice, logic, utility, and relevance.

I've mentioned this a few times, but there are people who adhere to Moral Universalism and your quote is the antithesis of the position. It is a choice whether you are a Moral Universalist or a Moral Relativist, but you cannot dislodge the other just by saying "your position is wrong" (which you insinuate in your post). Both positions are axiomatic. You assume they are true and go from there. The two positions, also, are mutually exclusive. You cannot adhere to both. So while I hear your Moral Relativism come through in the post and understand where you are coming from, I disagree with it and that's all there is. I'm sorry about that.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

04/11/2009 04:42:59 PM · #2038

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm impressed with many things you say Brennan even though I'm guessing there many be many things we differ on. You seem to be a voice of mediation which tends to be lacking in these threads.

LOL. I hope I'm one of those too, actually :-)

R.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

04/11/2009 04:49:40 PM · #2039

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm impressed with many things you say Brennan even though I'm guessing there many be many things we differ on. You seem to be a voice of mediation which tends to be lacking in these threads.

LOL. I hope I'm one of those too, actually :-)

R.

Except when those bear claws come out. :P

04/11/2009 05:13:00 PM · #2040

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm impressed with many things you say Brennan even though I'm guessing there many be many things we differ on. You seem to be a voice of mediation which tends to be lacking in these threads.

Yes, it certainly is lacking. You say some really harsh things and then get (obviously) a strong push pack and then stand back and act as if you aren't PART of that lacking.

04/11/2009 05:21:40 PM · #2041

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by Mousie:

Another thing I'd like to address is the seeming dismissal of the opinions of people who have not actually read the Bible. Having never read the Bible myself, but having taken numerous college level religion and philosophy courses, as well as a lifetime of extremely close attention paid to what I quite literally think of as my enemy (so long as I am made to be their scapegoat), I think that much can be said about the Bible, Christianity, or religion in general that's worthy, even without direct experience. Much like the discussions of astronomers who haven't walked the surface of the sun.

I'm not going to address your main point because there isn't anything there that seems wrong in what you say, so I pulled the last quote because that I differ with you on that. Even if you pray at the altar of capitalism, you should read Marx's "Das Capital". If you think Hitler was the embodiment of evil, you still ought to read "Mein Kamph". And even though you have had nothing but bad experiences dealing with Christians you ought to read the Bible. It is the book that inspired Martin Luther King, and Bishop Gene Robinson, as well as Reverend Jerry Falwell and Anita Bryant.

It is true that there is enough religion in our cultural zeitgeist that you can know the broad strokes of the story, in the same way a person who has never read Melville knows that "Moby Dick" is about a whale. But limiting your thoughts on any important book to your reactions to what others have told you of their reactions is... very limiting. I have friends who go to ashrams or study Tibetan Buddism, but have no interest in western theological thought. In our liberal (as in liberal education not left wing) society we tend to see interest in religion as the hallmark of the narrow minded, which of course is a silly prejudice. Intentionally limiting your knowledge can never be the proof of broadmindedness.

I understand your point, and I did the first time you expressed it towards me. But I guess I just end up at the same spot, I find it unnecessary. I don't see interest in religion as the hallmark of narrow mindedness. It isn't the interest in religions (plural) that is narrow minded, that can be a very open minded pursuit. One I HAVE taken and decided it wasn't for me. What gets me, and I think others like me is the narrow scope that occurs when a person picks one, says its right, and all others are wrong. There are Christians that aren't like this. But those aren't the ones we've been talking about in this forum.

So it is simply that religion isn't as interesting to me as psychology, the inner and outer workings of humans. So when I have a psych book in front of me, or a bible, I'm going to go with the psych book. And psychologists and psychiatrists have done some WRETCHED things, I am well aware. So I guess my point is, I'm not avoiding the Bible only because of Christians I think use it improperly, any more than I avoid psych books because of bad people that used them), I just don't find it that interesting or worthwhile for the direction I want my education to go in.

04/11/2009 05:24:00 PM · #2042

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Thank you. :)

04/11/2009 05:34:06 PM · #2043

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm impressed with many things you say Brennan even though I'm guessing there many be many things we differ on. You seem to be a voice of mediation which tends to be lacking in these threads.

Ditto....I definitely agree.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

LOL. I hope I'm one of those too, actually :-)

R.

Do we HAVE to acknowledge this publicly, or can we just take it as a given and not make a big deal out of it?......8>)

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

04/11/2009 05:41:00 PM · #2044

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

IMNSHO, Jason doesn't need to apologize for being who he is and thinking the way that he does, instead, I have to try to explain why I am the way I am in such a manner that he sees that I am a good and decent man who is searching just as he is, yet if my journey takes me down a different path, I would hope that he sees it as just that....different, and that my journey is just as valid, to me, as his is to him. Hopefully, there is something interesting to him about the way that I think, and he to me, and we both go our ways a little bit wiser.

What I hope to get out of these threads is a different point of view expressed in such a manner that is so awe inspiring in its description that it makes me want to check it out. All too often I get set back on my heels because it seems that different POVs are merely offered up as the be all to end all, and when I ask why, I get a cold reception. That is not always the case, but all too often.

The way he has treated me is not "who he is". I seek no apologies for differing beliefs, only the insults they produce.

I think you might go your way a little wiser, and he might well, in the case of me, go his ways going "yep I was right, another atheist nut job".

It's really easy to make someone seem like an A*hole after you've pushed all of their buttons and insulting the very way they live their life. I used to play this "game" with my ex boyfriend. I'd get upset about something small and just want a small acknowledgment that there was some wrongdoing, he would act like I had no right or was being crazy, give no space in his mind to see my side AT ALL, and then when this made a small amount of anger a HUGE amount of anger he'd be able to sit back and go "Dang, she IS crazy just like I said, she got all nuts about (fill in the blank)". When it was never about _____ whatever the thing may be.

My meaning, I don't get mad people are set in their beliefs, though it is irksome. I get mad when those beliefs lead them to behave rudely towards me, and it escalates, and suddenly I hate Christians and think they are all crazy, or whatever assumptions may be made that aren't true.

You'd think I know how to play this game by now.

So congrats to you doc, my angry retorts have done exactly what you wanted right?

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

04/11/2009 05:56:23 PM · #2045

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Do we HAVE to acknowledge this publicly, or can we just take it as a given and not make a big deal out of it?......8>)

Normally, I wouldn't remark; you know me. But Monica had misunderstood me earlier, so I'm sensitive on the subject.

R.

04/11/2009 05:57:11 PM · #2046

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I must have missed something.....I didn't see it get personal.

It wouldn't surprise me, 'cause it's something that is the case with me, that you're particularly attuned to being disregarded, or snubbed for asking the "wrong" questions, at the "wrong" time.....I do think that here, even in Rant, the conversations generally run more open-minded simply because otherwise the conversation veers away from someone who starts to froth at the mouth.

I don't think Jason's making a hobby out of breaking your stones any moreso than the rest of us who aren't in the same place he is religiously......and he's *usually* not abusive about it.

04/11/2009 06:13:49 PM · #2047

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
The way he has treated me is not "who he is". I seek no apologies for differing beliefs, only the insults they produce.

I think you might go your way a little wiser, and he might well, in the case of me, go his ways going "yep I was right, another atheist nut job".

I must have missed something.....I didn't see it get personal.

It wouldn't surprise me, 'cause it's something that is the case with me, that you're particularly attuned to being disregarded, or snubbed for asking the "wrong" questions, at the "wrong" time.....I do think that here, even in Rant, the conversations generally run more open-minded simply because otherwise the conversation veers away from someone who starts to froth at the mouth.

I don't think Jason's making a hobby out of breaking your stones any moreso than the rest of us who aren't in the same place he is religiously......and he's *usually* not abusive about it.

"No. But having a reference point makes it more likely for me to learn the difficult or inconvenient lessons. I cannot flit from flower to flower taking only what feels good and moving on as soon as I run into something that makes me uncomfortable."

"To be honest Monica, your beliefs seem very helter skelter. You choose what you want to believe based on your gut instinct and it seems to vary based on the situation. It's hard to have a conversation about that because it's like nailing Jell-O to the wall. There are lots of people who have put a lot of thought into their worldview and their positions are much more solid and steadfast."

It's so scolding. Like "listen here young lady, the world isn't all puppy's and rainbows, people (like me) have spent time on their worldviews and sticking too them." The words are less outwardly condescending but give the same impression.

As I said, would he accuse a man of flitting on flowers?

It's very personal, the attitude, I'm right, you are wrong and I'm going to add colorful language chosen specifically for you to illustrate that. And when you and I responded back saying he had me all wrong all we got was a response that cherry picked one sentence from you and one sentence from me and was basically "see how I'm right?" Instead of addressing ANY of the valid points we brought up.

How did this conversation go from gays to Monica is a bumble bee? It's like a horrible game of telephone on crack.

04/11/2009 06:16:07 PM · #2048

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Do we HAVE to acknowledge this publicly, or can we just take it as a given and not make a big deal out of it?......8>)

Normally, I wouldn't remark; you know me. But Monica had misunderstood me earlier, so I'm sensitive on the subject.

R.

:) I am sorry again. I felt like so many people were coming at me at once. When the focus seemed to shift from gays to me it got really overwhelming.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

04/11/2009 06:40:38 PM · #2049

The flitting from flower to flower wasn't meant as an insult at all. I have hummingbirds outside my window here and they struck me as exactly how I see things. Taking a sip here...taking a sip there. Never committing to anything. It never struck me as "feminine" and I think I would have used the analogy for a man as well. Why would you be upset with a feminine analogy anyway? You are a woman, aren't you?

I understand I have been straightforward with how I see your beliefs. I do not mean it in a derogatory way, but Rant threads allow for open disagreement. How many times have I had my beliefs castigated on these threads by those who don't agree with me? Sometimes they sting, but after a bit I understand it's just people voicing their own opinion. Good Lord, this very thread probably has 50-75 posts where I'm accused of being an intolerant boob. I'm not too worried about it. I've worked to try to avoid directly insulting language. To the extent I have failed at that, I apologize.

Bear, you slipped my mind. You do play the mediator. Believe it or not, I view myself as a mediator, but realize on many of these threads I become the only vocal component of one side of the argument. Because of that I'm forced to play that side to balance the conversation. I also fully realize that in Rant you have to play, as I said elsewhere, a "tight game". Shannon will never concede an inch in a debate because it's easiest that way. Show a moment of "weakness" and you will get eaten up. If we were to have the same conversation over a few beers, I bet it would go far differently.

Message edited by author 2009-04-11 18:42:18.