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 03/04/2009 02:46:52 PM · #26
Originally posted by citymars:
I find this confusing as well. If I understand correctly, the safest thing to do is to transfer your photos manually using a card reader -- don't have the software that comes with your camera do the transfer. Then only edit a copy of the original file.

Yep.

Though it seems like all too many newbies learn this the hard way, the info IS in various places throughout the site.

This issue has been alive and well for at least most of the time I've been here.....I know my first awareness of it was when Catherine noraneko got pinged on her Image Grain II entry in early March '07.
 03/04/2009 02:53:03 PM · #27
you could try using a data recovery software on your camera's memory card that would get the original back...
 03/04/2009 04:50:59 PM · #28
Yes it is very important to have the unaltered original file. It's the only proof you have that it's your original work. You won't need it until you need it BADLY. Just like model releases.
 03/04/2009 05:00:44 PM · #29
Originally posted by MAK:
you could try using a data recovery software on your camera's memory card that would get the original back...

Will that work after you reformat?
 03/04/2009 05:36:38 PM · #30
Originally posted by vawendy:
Actually, I was wondering the same thing... anyplace other than DPC need the original?

BBC/NHM Wildlife Photographer of the Year requires the originals.
 03/04/2009 07:47:22 PM · #31
This thread made me think of something I noticed the other day, but I wanted to check it when I got home from work before I posted. I shoot in raw and import using a card reader. I then view the files in bridge. Some of the raw files have different date created vs. date file modified, but only differing slightly. For example this one is off by 2 seconds:

Date Created 3/2/09, 1:32:06 PM
Date File Modified 3/2/09, 1:33:08 PM

There are files where this time differs by 2 minutes. I believe I was shooting it burst mode, so I have a feeling that the file was actually created at the first time in the buffer, but not actually written to the card until the second time?

Does anyone know if this is the case? I don't think this would be a problem for validations because I have the raw file, would it?
 03/04/2009 07:48:52 PM · #32
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by MAK:
you could try using a data recovery software on your camera's memory card that would get the original back...

Will that work after you reformat?


Sometimes, yes...

R.
 03/04/2009 08:50:41 PM · #33
Originally posted by scottieham:
This thread made me think of something I noticed the other day, but I wanted to check it when I got home from work before I posted. I shoot in raw and import using a card reader. I then view the files in bridge. Some of the raw files have different date created vs. date file modified, but only differing slightly. For example this one is off by 2 seconds:

Date Created 3/2/09, 1:32:06 PM
Date File Modified 3/2/09, 1:33:08 PM

There are files where this time differs by 2 minutes. I believe I was shooting it burst mode, so I have a feeling that the file was actually created at the first time in the buffer, but not actually written to the card until the second time?

Does anyone know if this is the case? I don't think this would be a problem for validations because I have the raw file, would it?


Ok, my date modified is march 3 7pm and my date created is march 4 3:30pm. I assume that the date modified is the actual time the photo was taken and the date created is the date the file was saved on the computer. I assume this is normal?
 03/04/2009 08:53:43 PM · #34
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pedrobop:
You meen that even if i save the original at my computer, edit it and "save as" in another folder, with another name....the original will not be acceptable?


Pedro, it *seems* that PS Elements is sometimes messing with original JPGs even when "save as" is used. It's aknown fact that some transfrer software adds data to the EXIF.

The safest way to work is to use a card reader to manually drag files from the card to a desktop folder, and THEN to copy the files in that folder to a new subfolder. You might name the first "JPG Originals" and the second "JPG working files". Then you never, ever open the files in the "originals" folder; they are there solely for archiving purposes, if you need to resurrect one for some reason you'd copy it to another folder without opening it.

This workflow is for JPG, not RAW: with RAW, the software never saves or alters anything, it creates a copy in a readable format instead. So in my RAW workflow I have the originals folder and the subfolder is "edits"; they are saved as PSD files.

R.


Thank you Bear...But i´m kind of paranoic and i already do this! I never put the original and the edited image at the same folder!
This kind of problem really drives me mad...probably everyone!
 03/04/2009 09:48:56 PM · #35
Originally posted by vawendy:
T
Here's the shot that was dq'd.



Nice image. How do you attract your bluebirds this time of the year? The ones in my yard seem to prefer only bugs. I'm south of you in NC.
 03/04/2009 10:02:45 PM · #36
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, my date modified is march 3 7pm and my date created is march 4 3:30pm. I assume that the date modified is the actual time the photo was taken and the date created is the date the file was saved on the computer. I assume this is normal?

No, that's not normal for an "original file" which has been copied via the computer's OS -- that file has been modified, as it says ...

Here is an example of the EXIF date info from one of my recent originals:

Originally posted by IMG_9760.JPG:

Make - Canon
Model - Canon PowerShot S3 IS
DateTime - 2009:03:03 08:45:04
ExposureTime - 1/100 seconds
FNumber - 3.50
ExifVersion - 0220
DateTimeOriginal - 2009:03:03 08:45:04
DateTimeDigitized - 2009:03:03 08:45:04
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/101 seconds
ApertureValue - F 3.51
ExposureBiasValue - 0.00
Image Type - IMG:PowerShot S3 IS JPEG
Image Number - 1039760
Owner Name - PMarcus©POB4653Berkeley,CA94704

Note how all time-stamps agree ...
 03/04/2009 10:27:26 PM · #37
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, my date modified is march 3 7pm and my date created is march 4 3:30pm. I assume that the date modified is the actual time the photo was taken and the date created is the date the file was saved on the computer. I assume this is normal?

No, that's not normal for an "original file" which has been copied via the computer's OS -- that file has been modified, as it says ...

Here is an example of the EXIF date info from one of my recent originals:

Originally posted by IMG_9760.JPG:

Make - Canon
Model - Canon PowerShot S3 IS
DateTime - 2009:03:03 08:45:04
ExposureTime - 1/100 seconds
FNumber - 3.50
ExifVersion - 0220
DateTimeOriginal - 2009:03:03 08:45:04
DateTimeDigitized - 2009:03:03 08:45:04
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/101 seconds
ApertureValue - F 3.51
ExposureBiasValue - 0.00
Image Type - IMG:PowerShot S3 IS JPEG
Image Number - 1039760
Owner Name - PMarcus©POB4653Berkeley,CA94704

Note how all time-stamps agree ...


Ok, I feel about ready to throw-up here. I have done everything that was explained to me and it still sounds like I'm in trouble, and I think I'm about ready to give up.

Here's the deal:

I took a photo today at 1:16:20pm. I came home around 2:00pm. Put the compactflash card into a sandisk reader. I did not click on anything when it came up with a dialog box. I right clicked on the start menu and selected explore. I expanded the compactflash folder and I dragged the file to my i drive.

From what I understood, this is exactly the method I should be using.

When I right click on the file and select properties, it tells me the date(time) created is 1:59:02, the time when the file was copied onto the hard drive. It tells me the date modified is 1:16:20 the time of the original capture. Now I'm assuming that the exif creation date is different than the explore.

So then I went into Elements, so I could actually see the exif data (using organizer). The three dates were the same on un-edited photos. But get this! It added photoshop information to my cr2 file! I thought everyone agreed that a raw file was safe. When I view the exif data on a raw file I played with, it says the software is Photoshop and the three dates differ.

argh!

Message edited by author 2009-03-04 22:52:02.
 03/04/2009 11:41:58 PM · #38
Well....

I do my work in the manner described early by me, and I just went back and checked a validated file from a December challenge, and on the RAW file my EXIF shows all 3 time/dates to be the same.

This is reading the EXIF out of Bridge by bringing the CR2 file up and then clicking menu>file>file info>advanced>exif + xmp: these are the actual embedded tags on the RAW file itself, and I have opened this file from RAW several times to work on it.

I don't know what to say except that somehow you may be reading EXIF off the working version instead of the actual RAW file if you are not reading EXIF in Bridge.

R.
 03/04/2009 11:49:07 PM · #39
Ok, here's the proof -- I'm looking at the exif information through organizer. You can see it's a cr2 file. note the software and the dates
03/04/2009 11:51:21 PM · #40
Wendy, why don't you post some screen shots of the exif data you are looking at? I have elements 6 and I do not see what you are reporting at all.

ETA. You just posted the info before I managed to post.

Message edited by author 2009-03-04 23:51:49.
 03/04/2009 11:55:16 PM · #41
Mind you, I do have CS3 so Elements uses the CS3 version of bridge, so it may not be helpful anyway.
 03/05/2009 08:08:58 AM · #42
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, here's the proof -- I'm looking at the exif information through organizer. You can see it's a cr2 file. note the software and the dates


Please somebody explain. I was under the impression that raw files were safe and wouldn't change--but take a look at this data. It looks to me that photoshop has changed this.

I don't want to bring the original copies that I made anywhere near photoshop at the moment. What is the best way of safely looking at an exif file to see if the things I dragged onto my other drive are modified or not?

03/05/2009 08:19:06 AM · #43
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, here's the proof -- I'm looking at the exif information through organizer. You can see it's a cr2 file. note the software and the dates


Please somebody explain. I was under the impression that raw files were safe and wouldn't change--but take a look at this data. It looks to me that photoshop has changed this.

I don't want to bring the original copies that I made anywhere near photoshop at the moment. What is the best way of safely looking at an exif file to see if the things I dragged onto my other drive are modified or not?

It's probably reading the other time from a sidecar file that is created when you edit a RAW file. Copy the RAW file into a new directory with nothing in and then check it.
 03/05/2009 07:35:27 PM · #44
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

This is reading the EXIF out of Bridge by bringing the CR2 file up and then clicking menu>file>file info>advanced>exif + xmp: these are the actual embedded tags on the RAW file itself, and I have opened this file from RAW several times to work on it.


I haven't exactly figured out what's going on, but I am comfortable with my files. It still has a time difference when it displays time created vs. time modified in bridge, even though for most of them it is only a few seconds. I can not explain it except that I feel like that is when the buffer cleared and the file can actually be written to the card. But if I do "menu>file>file info>advanced>exif + xmp" Then the created time, modified time, and digitized time are all exactly the same.
 03/06/2009 03:08:59 PM · #45
ok, since my raws also seem to be effected (or infected) by elements, I don't want to use photoshop to look at the exifs from my supposed originals. What is a safe way to view the exif files (I don't have photoshop bridge, since I only have elements. Any recommendations?
 03/06/2009 03:22:16 PM · #46
Originally posted by vawendy:
ok, since my raws also seem to be effected (or infected) by elements, I don't want to use photoshop to look at the exifs from my supposed originals. What is a safe way to view the exif files (I don't have photoshop bridge, since I only have elements. Any recommendations?


Create a new destination file called "originals copies". Open the folder where your originals are stored, right click on the file you want to work on and holding the click, drag it to the new folder; when you drop it it will ask if you want to copy or move; select copy. You now have two originals. Work witht he originals from the "copies" folder and the original original will remain virgin.

R.
 03/06/2009 03:27:44 PM · #47
Yes, I've already done that. But I would like to look at the exif file without going through photoshop--since my photoshop is not to be trusted. What is a safe way of looking at the exif file?
 03/06/2009 04:25:33 PM · #48
Jpeg or raw - they are still just a series of ones and zeros and as such can easily be copied or tampered with. Why be so strict when it is so obvious that anyone that really wants to and has some digital skills could fake an original? I've never used one, but I'm sure there are plenty of programs that lets you edit the EXIF freely to e.g. adjust the date of exposure or remove pesky "Adobe Elements" tags.
 03/06/2009 04:30:17 PM · #49
Originally posted by johst582:
Jpeg or raw - they are still just a series of ones and zeros and as such can easily be copied or tampered with. Why be so strict when it is so obvious that anyone that really wants to and has some digital skills could fake an original? I've never used one, but I'm sure there are plenty of programs that lets you edit the EXIF freely to e.g. adjust the date of exposure or remove pesky "Adobe Elements" tags.


that was the irritating thing. I was pretty sure that I could find a way to remove the photoshop metadata that was added--but that was cheating. I didn't cheat when editing the file, and I wasn't going to cheat to get it validating. Right now, I just would really like to be able to look at my original and see that it's ok. Plus, I have some photos that are 4 years old that I don't know if elements organizer has changed. when we looked at the dq file, my husband uploaded it to his LINUX machine and looked at the code. He's not available the next couple of days, and I don't know whether the old files are safe to submit or not.
 03/06/2009 05:20:22 PM · #50
Originally posted by johst582:
Jpeg or raw - they are still just a series of ones and zeros and as such can easily be copied or tampered with. Why be so strict when it is so obvious that anyone that really wants to and has some digital skills could fake an original? I've never used one, but I'm sure there are plenty of programs that lets you edit the EXIF freely to e.g. adjust the date of exposure or remove pesky "Adobe Elements" tags.

Yes, and there's "forensic" software which will detect if you've messed with it ... is a virtual ribbon really worth the risk of a lifetime ban? Just askin' ...
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