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02/26/2009 02:27:03 PM · #601 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
The point remains: if the universe is too complex to form the basic building blocks from which more complex forms arose, then you can't turn around and claim the even greater complexity of intelligence as the source. It's a self-defeating explanation that guarantees the fallacy of the original assumption. |
So we're both intellectual frauds and if we look at both our arguments, as someone above put it, they are turtles all the way down?
If you point out that my argument is invalid, it doesn't make yours valid by default. :) |
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02/26/2009 03:14:25 PM · #602 |
| I sure hope those methane vents on Mars turn out to have an organic origin, and maybe settle at least part of this issue. |
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02/26/2009 03:53:17 PM · #603 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I sure hope those methane vents on Mars turn out to have an organic origin, and maybe settle at least part of this issue. |
That will be really interesting, although I'll say that it may not settle the argument as you suppose. Interplanetary contamination actually occurs at a low level between Mars and Earth. So it's actually possible we are Martian in origin and vice versa. Finding life on Mars would only be helpful in the big scheme if we can show it is fundamentally different than our own life (eg. uses a different hereditary structure than DNA). |
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02/26/2009 04:20:11 PM · #604 |
| Somehow I'm having trouble reconciling the Earth being seeded with Martian bacteria blasted here by some asteroid impact with that business about the Garden of Eden ... even allowing for life "arising" one one planet only, isn't an origin as Martian microorganisms fundamentally at odds with Christian (and most other organized religious) doctrine? |
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02/26/2009 04:46:12 PM · #605 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Somehow I'm having trouble reconciling the Earth being seeded with Martian bacteria blasted here by some asteroid impact with that business about the Garden of Eden ... even allowing for life "arising" one one planet only, isn't an origin as Martian microorganisms fundamentally at odds with Christian (and most other organized religious) doctrine? |
Well, I was speaking as a Scientist. Religion, however, is quite flexible as I'm sure many are frustratingly aware. I wouldn't see anything wrong with the idea life arose on Earth and was transported to Mars though. But you know as well as I that if life is found on other planets the idea of God will just go marching on. ;) |
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02/26/2009 04:59:09 PM · #606 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Somehow I'm having trouble reconciling the Earth being seeded with Martian bacteria blasted here by some asteroid impact with that business about the Garden of Eden ... even allowing for life "arising" one one planet only, isn't an origin as Martian microorganisms fundamentally at odds with Christian (and most other organized religious) doctrine? |
No problem at all; it just means the asteroid is God's hammer :-)
R.
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02/26/2009 06:04:04 PM · #607 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Somehow I'm having trouble reconciling the Earth being seeded with Martian bacteria blasted here by some asteroid impact with that business about the Garden of Eden ... even allowing for life "arising" one one planet only, isn't an origin as Martian microorganisms fundamentally at odds with Christian (and most other organized religious) doctrine? |
No problem at all; it just means the asteroid is God's hammer :-)
R. |
The Hammer of God
:) |
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02/26/2009 06:11:19 PM · #608 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Somehow I'm having trouble reconciling the Earth being seeded with Martian bacteria blasted here by some asteroid impact with that business about the Garden of Eden ... even allowing for life "arising" one one planet only, isn't an origin as Martian microorganisms fundamentally at odds with Christian (and most other organized religious) doctrine? |
No problem at all; it just means the asteroid is God's hammer :-)
R. |
The Hammer of God
:) |
Believe me, I was FULLY aware of that when I made my post... If the Scientists have a God snuck secretly among them, his name is Arthur C. Clarke :-)
R.
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02/26/2009 07:49:51 PM · #609 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
]Believe me, I was FULLY aware of that when I made my post... If the Scientists have a God snuck secretly among them, his name is Arthur C. Clarke :-)
R. |
If there are gods, Arthur C. Clarke's one of them.
(Your post has warmed a sci-fi geek's heart!) |
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02/26/2009 07:54:19 PM · #610 |
| Let's just hope his prognostication in The Nine Billion Names Of God was just a bit off ... |
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02/26/2009 08:33:59 PM · #611 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Let's just hope his prognostication in The Nine Billion Names Of God was just a bit off ... |
Oh, GOD, yes!
R.
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05/12/2009 02:56:43 AM · #612 |
Hey Doc, if you're still game, I had a question that I always was curious about, my apologies if it was already covered.
How do you know your particular faith is the correct one?
It seems to me that the person of faith not only needs to defend their position versus atheists/agnostics, but also must make a case vis a vis every other religion. So the question is not God v No-God, but God A v God B v God C etc...
Given that the faiths of the world are contradictory and they can't all be correct, by affirming one you are negating the others. With so many faiths out there (extinct and ongoing), how did you narrow it down to your particular one?
The vast majority of humans simply pick up the religion they were brought up with, rather than studying and seeking out the relative merits of all the alternatives. As such, for most people, the 'choice' of their particular religion was an accident of time & space, and I just wanted to ask you to weigh in on that.
Also, what do you say to the other people following other faiths (the majority of the planet) who will never make it to heaven that is described by your faith? And what about those humans that existed prior to the historical introduction of your faith (and those living in remote parts of the world that have never heard of it) who never got the chance to be exposed to the 'correct' faith that will lead them to the afterlife?
Thanks in advance, this topic has always been road bump for me in understanding others in your position and I am very much interested in your response, or anyone else who might want to chime in at this late hour. |
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05/12/2009 12:08:39 PM · #613 |
| Old thread resurrectors will ride a skiff on the river Stixx. LOL |
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05/12/2009 01:27:54 PM · #614 |
I'm not doc, but I play on on TV.
Originally posted by AP:
How do you know your particular faith is the correct one? |
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
You don't, that's what faith is all about.
Edit:
I can't just answer with a one liner. As a Catholic, we don't actually know who goes to hell. We only know if someone is in Heaven (they're called Saints). We can't say, "You are going to Hell" since we don't actually know.
Message edited by author 2009-05-12 13:44:42. |
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05/12/2009 01:41:43 PM · #615 |
| Has anyone here read the book "Silence" by Endo? |
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05/12/2009 02:50:05 PM · #616 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
As a Catholic, we don't actually know who goes to hell. We only know if someone is in Heaven (they're called Saints). |
If you don't know the former, how can you possibly know the latter? |
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05/12/2009 04:33:35 PM · #617 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
As a Catholic, we don't actually know who goes to hell. We only know if someone is in Heaven (they're called Saints). |
If you don't know the former, how can you possibly know the latter? |
Who cares? Only God can make that decision.
As for saints, there's a long drawn out process to figure them out. Just search around.
There's no process to figure out if someone's in hell. |
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05/12/2009 05:02:59 PM · #618 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
As a Catholic, we don't actually know who goes to hell. We only know if someone is in Heaven (they're called Saints). |
If you don't know the former, how can you possibly know the latter? |
Who cares? Only God can make that decision.
As for saints, there's a long drawn out process to figure them out. Just search around.
There's no process to figure out if someone's in hell. |
That process is a man made process, so I wouldn't be so sure they are in heaven either. |
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05/13/2009 12:24:09 PM · #619 |
Originally posted by AP:
Hey Doc, if you're still game, I had a question that I always was curious about, my apologies if it was already covered.
How do you know your particular faith is the correct one?
It seems to me that the person of faith not only needs to defend their position versus atheists/agnostics, but also must make a case vis a vis every other religion. So the question is not God v No-God, but God A v God B v God C etc...
Given that the faiths of the world are contradictory and they can't all be correct, by affirming one you are negating the others. With so many faiths out there (extinct and ongoing), how did you narrow it down to your particular one?
The vast majority of humans simply pick up the religion they were brought up with, rather than studying and seeking out the relative merits of all the alternatives. As such, for most people, the 'choice' of their particular religion was an accident of time & space, and I just wanted to ask you to weigh in on that.
Also, what do you say to the other people following other faiths (the majority of the planet) who will never make it to heaven that is described by your faith? And what about those humans that existed prior to the historical introduction of your faith (and those living in remote parts of the world that have never heard of it) who never got the chance to be exposed to the 'correct' faith that will lead them to the afterlife?
Thanks in advance, this topic has always been road bump for me in understanding others in your position and I am very much interested in your response, or anyone else who might want to chime in at this late hour. |
Hey, sorry it took a day. I have Rant turned off and so I don't always see when old threads get brought up.
I'll probably answer in a series of thoughts here that may be connected and may not. :)
Bottom line: You don't necessarily "know" in the sense of the word most people want. That's where faith comes in. However...
Not all religions are totally exclusive of each other. Many, if not all, overlap to some extent. In this regard you can agree with other religions to the extent they agree with you. Of course there are sticking points where you must adhere to your own creed and reject the others. The "Christian life", for example, is one that is generally appreciated by most other world religions. In the scheme of things, my life as a Christian will likely keep me away from the worst fates of other religions were they to turn out true.
I agree there are things out of our control which steer us toward a certain faith. This is true in every aspect of our life. We have zero control over the time we were born, the place we were born, who our parents are, or what our genetic potential is. This probably shapes what faith we follow, yet it also likely shapes what job we go into, who we will marry, and our outlook on life. The argument, however, doesn't get used much when talking about the other aspects. Are we simply uncomfortable with the idea that likely 90% of our life is dictated from the moment we are born? It also ignores the fact that there are still many people who join a faith (or even drop away from one) in their adult life. This happens all the time.
Christianity does allude to the idea that you will be held to a different standard if you never "knew the master's will" (as the parable says). Finally, the particular question about what happens to those who don't hear never applies to people having the conversation.
Hope that helps. |
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05/13/2009 12:31:44 PM · #620 |
Originally posted by JDubsgirl:
Has anyone here read the book "Silence" by Endo? |
I have. It was some time ago, though. Fascinating book...
R. |
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05/13/2009 12:43:21 PM · #621 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
As a Catholic, we don't actually know who goes to hell. We only know if someone is in Heaven (they're called Saints). |
If you don't know the former, how can you possibly know the latter? |
Who cares? Only God can make that decision.
As for saints, there's a long drawn out process to figure them out. Just search around.
There's no process to figure out if someone's in hell. |
The Catholic Church had a long, drawn out process for determining who was a witch, too. Does that make it known? |
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05/13/2009 12:49:48 PM · #622 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
The Catholic Church had a long, drawn out process for determining who was a witch, too. Does that make it known? |
Actually, the witch-hunts operated in an astonishingly short timeframe, accusation to execution could be a matter of weeks. Sainthood, on the other hand, can take generations. The one was a real-time process, the other's a historical process, basically... There were exceptions, on both sides, but that was more the norm.
R. |
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05/13/2009 12:55:58 PM · #623 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scalvert:
The Catholic Church had a long, drawn out process for determining who was a witch, too. Does that make it known? |
Actually, the witch-hunts operated in an astonishingly short timeframe, accusation to execution could be a matter of weeks. Sainthood, on the other hand, can take generations. The one was a real-time process, the other's a historical process, basically... There were exceptions, on both sides, but that was more the norm.
R. |
I agree with Bear here. It's not quite the same comparison.
A possibly better comparison would be in the scientific field, which many catholics love to contend. Scientists can spend generations deciding where fossils belong, or if they're part of the same group of animals, etc, but in the end, they very seldomly ever really KNOW that they're completely right. Of course, to many catholics, this means that evolution/fossil records/etc. are not to be trusted and are false much of the time.
Yet when it comes to sainthood, suddenly the same kind of researches and processes for determining such are infalliable? |
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05/13/2009 12:59:01 PM · #624 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Yet when it comes to sainthood, suddenly the same kind of researches and processes for determining such are infalliable? |
Nah, the POPE's infallible. But even Pope's need researchers :-)
R. |
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05/13/2009 01:13:46 PM · #625 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scalvert:
The Catholic Church had a long, drawn out process for determining who was a witch, too. Does that make it known? |
Actually, the witch-hunts operated in an astonishingly short timeframe, accusation to execution could be a matter of weeks. Sainthood, on the other hand, can take generations. The one was a real-time process, the other's a historical process, basically... |
Ah, so if the witch hunt took longer, THEN those designated as such would be actual witches. Interesting. |
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