| Author | Thread |
|
|
01/28/2009 04:47:53 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
Well...I am a Kincaid fan actually. :) Not because I think of him as a great artist, but more because it's great "eyecandy" (in its own way) and emotes a lovely feeling from the subjects of his paintings...soft, warm light sources. |
That's interesting. 'Cuz if Kincaid were a photographer he'd do really, really well at DPC, where eye candy is the safe route to popularity. Almost seems like you're undermining your own position here, though I guess not really. I mean, it's "OK" to like Kincaid (shudder) and still bemoan the fact that more original, and very worthy, artists are ignored in the marketplace. But the thing of it is, of course, that DPC *IS* a marketplace, for all intents and purposes, as far as challenges go; when you enter a challenge, your competing to see if your image can attract the most buyers, basically, right? Even if the payout isn't cash...
R. |
True. When we enter challenges in DPC, we are trying to capture the tastes of the general voting membership. However, to do that, we also have to "cave" to that certain style otherwise, the comments and scores will be in the very low ranges and the comments will be reflective of such.
And, no, I don't think that I'm undermining my position in saying what I'm saying. I think that I'm expanding on it in a different way/approach, according to the idea of photography being considered more of a skill in DPC than an art.
As for Kincaid doing well in DPC...hmmmmmm......
Likely would have gotten:
Focus off
Too soft a focus for my tastes
oversaturated
The shadows are too harsh on the pathway it's distracting
Over exposed on the water and sky
The Gazebo seems to be on a bit of a tilt
Colors seem off
Too bad that garden thingy had to be there.
You should have cropped out the flowers in the front
Too tight a crop on the left hand site IMHO It cuts off the flow of the water
Just doesn't do it for me
SIGH....uhhhhhh...I think Kincaid would have been voting 1's in revenge/spite! ;-)
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 04:55:04 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
telling us that "it just doesn't do it for me". (one of my fave comments...so helpful! *smile*) |
But that's an honest comment!
Yet if the person told you what to do to make it "Do it" for them, if you didn't agree with their comment, then you'd be annoyed all over again, right?
So what is the commenter to do in your case?
Edited 'cause I can NOT type!!!
Message edited by author 2009-01-28 17:00:35.
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 04:58:43 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
True. When we enter challenges in DPC, we are trying to capture the tastes of the general voting membership. However, to do that, we also have to "cave" to that certain style otherwise, the comments and scores will be in the very low ranges and the comments will be reflective of such.
And, no, I don't think that I'm undermining my position in saying what I'm saying. I think that I'm expanding on it in a different way/approach, according to the idea of photography being considered more of a skill in DPC than an art. |
So then what is it that you want from the voters?
You seem to have pretty much stated that you don't like what they have to say and vote.....could you take an image from your portfolio and critique it here to give us an example?
And perhaps include what you would consider to be helpful, yet not pushy cmments?
Or even take something from my portfolio and use it.....feel free.
I'd love to see how you'd handle it.
Please?
I keep hoping that something will evolve out of one of these threads.....8>)
I know I feel that I have a much better grasp of Bokeh from the one following the Bokeh V challenge.....but I'm just one voter/commenter.....8>)
Edited for phat phingers....
Message edited by author 2009-01-28 17:02:31.
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 05:25:31 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
Originally posted by yanko:
That's the difference. Unless your goal is to be as popular as possible and cater to everyone, some kid who just picked up his first Rebel isn't going to be all that helpful to you. No different than some kid who got his first car telling you how yours should be. Would you care? |
So why even bother?
My understanding is that the comments from the kid who just picked up his first Rebel are part of his own learning process on this site, andt hey should be encourage, but not taken as gospel. You need to decide for yourself if the person has a valid critique or if they just don't understand. For example, my recent entry in "Life" got a lot of conflicting comments regarding the composition and the way the light was striking the dusty window. I consider many of those as representing personal taste, rather than flaws of my entry. On the other hand, a handful of people made the same critique about the glossy pot, but nobody thought the shiny pot was a positive element, so that critique carries more weight. You have to interpret the comments and decide for yourself what to take away from them. |
Why even bother what? Enter challenges or comment? I don't enter challenges so I can be told I need to use rule of thirds or that they didn't see the challenge theme. Trust me, when the commenter actually puts in the effort to think for themselves before they post I'll value their input. Unfortunately, that's not the norm.
As for the learning process, this idea of leaving comments as a way to learn doesn't make much sense to me. If you spend the time thinking about why you like or didn't like a photo you'll learn everything there is to learn without having to actually send those thoughts to someone else. Once it's sent it should benefit the recipient don't you think? If it doesn't why bother?
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 05:35:08 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
Originally posted by yanko:
That's the difference. Unless your goal is to be as popular as possible and cater to everyone, some kid who just picked up his first Rebel isn't going to be all that helpful to you. No different than some kid who got his first car telling you how yours should be. Would you care? |
So why even bother?
My understanding is that the comments from the kid who just picked up his first Rebel are part of his own learning process on this site, andt hey should be encourage, but not taken as gospel. You need to decide for yourself if the person has a valid critique or if they just don't understand. For example, my recent entry in "Life" got a lot of conflicting comments regarding the composition and the way the light was striking the dusty window. I consider many of those as representing personal taste, rather than flaws of my entry. On the other hand, a handful of people made the same critique about the glossy pot, but nobody thought the shiny pot was a positive element, so that critique carries more weight. You have to interpret the comments and decide for yourself what to take away from them. |
Amen. I've learned more from giving comments than almost anything else.
If your skin is soooo thin that you can't stand criticism don't post your pictures on a site that encourages (and is, in fact, largely based around) criticism. Go to Flickr. |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 05:38:19 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by eamurdock:
Amen. I've learned more from giving comments than almost anything else.
If your skin is soooo thin that you can't stand criticism don't post your pictures on a site that encourages (and is, in fact, largely based around) criticism. Go to Flickr. |
Though I agree with your statement about making comments, the whole concept of  yanko being thin-skinned is freakin' hilarious!
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 05:41:20 PM · #107 |
The "why even bother" was kind of frustration in general. I'm not totally sure what I was addressing. The cliche "damned if you do and damned if you don't" seems to apply.
I find making myself analyze why I do or don't like someone else's entry has given me insight that I was able to then apply to my own photography. I've gotten plenty of positive PM's in response to my comments. So far I have escaped a nasty response to my critiques. I even had a interesting exchange with  Pawdrix over my comment on one of his entries, and he said earlier that he really does not care for comments. |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 05:59:56 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Oh, and of all things, to use a car analogy on me is pretty fallacious. I find kids who haven't developed the bad habits over the years to be the most natural and intuitive when it comes to both understanding, and working on, the ever-rapidly evolving world of the automobile today.....so....bad example. |
Well yeah it's a bad example since you twisted it into something it wasn't. I didn't ask if you found all kids' opinions to be bad just the one who was new to cars in general telling you how yours should be. I find it interesting though that you DO qualify the opinion (i.e. bolded parts) so perhaps it wasn't such a bad example after all? To relate this to photography we are talking about the bad habits. For example the nitpickers constantly using phrases like too distracting, not using rule of thirds, etc., rather than looking deeper and thinking for themselves. FWIW, I do think children are the best artists and the best adult artists are the ones who refuse to relinquish the child within.
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 06:04:47 PM · #109 |
I am a nitpicker but don't always say what I'm thinking. I am famous for immediately seeing a tilted horizon and will almost always say something because it basically downgrades the shot for me. But like anything else, comments are like a-holes, we all have them. If you don't like receiving a comment, then maybe you shouldn't enter. Sometimes I get remarks that piss me off, so I just read them for what they are worth, and go on with my business. With the subjectivity of any type of art viewing, the opinions are going to be totally varied. Some people like soft and sweet, where others want harsh and avant garde. You can't please everybody, that's for sure. I think a harsh rude comment is never warranted but not everybody sugar coats or is as sensitive, so they say something and it is something somebody could say to them and they'd think nothing of it.
But I don't win ribbons, so maybe what I say isn't worth a flip anyway. :~P
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 06:11:23 PM · #110 |
| How experienced does one need to be to know when something is distracting? |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 06:16:10 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by eamurdock:
Amen. I've learned more from giving comments than almost anything else.
If your skin is soooo thin that you can't stand criticism don't post your pictures on a site that encourages (and is, in fact, largely based around) criticism. Go to Flickr. |
Though I agree with your statement about making comments, the whole concept of yanko being thin-skinned is freakin' hilarious! |
Yup, you can practically see my insides.
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 06:17:08 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by eamurdock:
How experienced does one need to be to know when something is distracting? |
Have you tried to ask yourself why you find something distracting? What is the answer?
Message edited by author 2009-01-28 18:17:19.
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 06:28:08 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by eamurdock:
How experienced does one need to be to know when something is distracting? |
Have you tried to ask yourself why you find something distracting? What is the answer? |
Have you tried to ask yourself why someone else might find something distracting? Is it possible for someone to legitimately find something distracting that you don't? Is the ultimate validation (or repudiation) of another's opinion whether or not you agree with it? |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 06:30:15 PM · #114 |
This thread is distracting.
Nudes on the main page are distracting.
My wife wanting me to go to the store for her is distracting. |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 06:31:11 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
This thread is distracting.
Nudes on the main page are distracting.
My wife wanting me to go to the store for her is distracting. |
shut up, you're distracting me:) |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:02:21 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by eamurdock:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by eamurdock:
How experienced does one need to be to know when something is distracting? |
Have you tried to ask yourself why you find something distracting? What is the answer? |
Have you tried to ask yourself why someone else might find something distracting? |
Sure but it only leads to guesses not real answers, which is why I asked the question.
Originally posted by eamurdock:
Is it possible for someone to legitimately find something distracting that you don't? Is the ultimate validation (or repudiation) of another's opinion whether or not you agree with it? |
Of course but it only gets validated if a legitimate answer is given. It has nothing to do with whether I agree with it or not.
Message edited by author 2009-01-28 19:04:20.
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:05:38 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by eamurdock:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by eamurdock:
How experienced does one need to be to know when something is distracting? |
Have you tried to ask yourself why you find something distracting? What is the answer? |
Have you tried to ask yourself why someone else might find something distracting?
Sure but it only leads to guesses not real answers, which is why I asked the question. |
Originally posted by eamurdock:
Is it possible for someone to legitimately find something distracting that you don't? Is the ultimate validation (or repudiation) of another's opinion whether or not you agree with it? |
Sure provided a legitimate answer is given. It has nothing to do with whether I agree with it or not. |
The what is easy. It's not very time consuming, and I think people feel like if it's not accepted then they haven't lost much time and effort for that.
The why is difficult and time-consuming, and if one takes the effort to think about and present the why to their what, and it's still rejected, then it's harder to take, so my thought is that often people will just skip the why altogether.
Not saying it's right, but that's my thought process.
The how is an entirely different story.
The who lives on a speck of pollen on a clover. |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:13:36 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
If DPC is meant to further one in terms of technical skills, then it cannot be considered to be enhancing an artform. If it cannot be considered art, then it is a skill and there is very little room for self-expression or growth. It is mastering a skill and the only thing the score means is how well one has mastered that skill. |
That simply isn't true. Art and craft (or skill) go hand in hand. The artist needs to develop the necessary skills to communicate his/her vision. Without repeatable, ingrained skills, the presence of "art" is an accident.
When Jackson Pollack become lionized by the art world (and rightly so, IMO) an entire slew of imitators sprang into being who threw paint at canvas with consummate gusto, but not one, ever, came close to creating a masterpiece to equal JP's best. There was a LOT of work behind the development of that technique, a lot of failed attempts, a lot of misery and pain and sweat.
R. |
Speaking of Jackson Pollack, this is pretty fun and amusing :) |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:21:45 PM · #119 |
My 30 second masterpiece. :) |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:28:20 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by mpeters:
My 30 second masterpiece. :) |
Mine! |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:44:22 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by mpeters:
My 30 second masterpiece. :) |
Mine! |
I would call yours more of a dejected Yertle the Turtle. |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:44:59 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by mpeters:
I would call yours more of a dejected Yertle the Turtle. |
hehehe. |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:46:39 PM · #123 |
The regular forum complaint about lack of comments and/or low scores is not (in spite of what is invariably claimed by the complainant) anything to do with a desire to “learn how to make my photos better”. It’s simply a defensive impulse, as can be seen in the vitriol aimed at the occasional low scorer imprudent enough to admit to it.
If you really want to learn how to make your photos better, look at other people’s photographs. What do others say about them? What do you say about them? If you won’t do that, if you won’t look and think and form a considered reaction, you simply can’t get better. No matter how many comments you get on your own stuff, if it’s mediocre to start with all that will happen is that you’ll just get better at disguising its mediocrity. And some people here are masters of disguise.
Many also ask in the forums here, “Which lens should I buy next?” My advice would be to not buy any. Instead sell one – ideally an expensive one – and use the money to buy a few good books of photographs. Not books about photography; books of photographs, with commentary and analysis if possible. Look at the images over and over again. Read the text. Keep doing it. You’ll become a better photographer before you’ve taken another shot.
To respond directly to the OP, I often give scores of 3. That’s my default score for all photographs that I feel are of no consequence, which is generally at least two thirds of all the entries in a challenge. And I don’t care at all how good the “technicals” are, nor how difficult it was to get to shot, nor how many splashes had to be photographed to get that one frame that's as perfect as last week’s splash. Inconsequential is inconsequential no matter how it’s dressed.
I appreciate that my views are not mainstream, and that every taste has equal validity, and that Britney Spears and Nina Simone are both just singers. I also appreciate that my own photographs are inconsequential to most (and I thank Goodness for that mercy). But I stand by my point ... if you really, really want to get better then stop fretting about your own photographs, and start really, really looking at the work of others.
|
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:47:54 PM · #124 |
That's amusing for a few minutes
 |
|
|
|
01/28/2009 07:56:03 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
telling us that "it just doesn't do it for me". (one of my fave comments...so helpful! *smile*) |
But that's an honest comment!
Yet if the person told you what to do to make it "Do it" for them, if you didn't agree with their comment, then you'd be annoyed all over again, right?
So what is the commenter to do in your case?
Edited 'cause I can NOT type!!! |
On neither side of the fence would this be helpful to me, in my personal experience. The reason being, they are not saying WHY "it doesn't do it for them". The same holds true for the good...saying that it does it for them. I'd want to know WHAT it is about it that "does it". :)
If I were to say...."Hey, Jeb....you just don't do it for me"....wouldn't you want to know why?!
Or, would you get ticked and run off to give me ones? LOL ;)
Message edited by author 2009-01-28 19:56:59. |
|
