?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

01/23/2009 10:12:14 PM · #401

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Worldview is just my way of pointing to a belief system without using the word religion because I know tons of people would be all in a hub-bub if I said atheism was a religion.

It makes no more sense either way. Atheism's not even a system... any more than not believing in dragons and mermaids is a system. You're still trying to imagine that people live their lives entirely by what they don't believe in, as if imaginary literary characters and the totems of a remote tribe guide your actions. It's silly.

Substitute "atheism" for "materialism". Also note if what you say is really true, the whole word is an oxymoron since "-ism" means "A distinctive doctrine, system, or theory". Guess you are just athe eh?

01/23/2009 10:12:34 PM · #402

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I think I don't have much argument with you about this dahkota. We see alike on this matter. I disagree with Shannon, Spaz and trevytrev.

Perhaps I can stick it in their eye by pointing out under their view religion has the ability to prevent evil but atheism could never do that. ;)

Well, I think if you reread "The Art of War" you might devise better tactics in your arguments. They would be a little easier to win that way, or at least your points might be better accepted.

01/23/2009 10:14:48 PM · #403

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think I don't have much argument with you about this dahkota. We see alike on this matter. I disagree with Shannon, Spaz and trevytrev.

Perhaps I can stick it in their eye by pointing out under their view religion has the ability to prevent evil but atheism could never do that. ;)

Um, what? Nothing has the ability to PREVENT evil.

Untrue. A religious person could say, "because I am a Christian, I am going to fight poverty or stop my neighbor from abusing his kids". That is preventing evil from being done. The argument, apparently, is that nobody can say, "because I am an atheist..." because that apparently doesn't make sense.

01/23/2009 10:17:00 PM · #404

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Okay, you've gone off the deep end here and into the abyss. -ism is not exclusive of "A distinctive doctrine, system, or theory" and atheism (the word itself) was actually developed as a pejorative term.

For your amusement:
The -ism suffix can be used to express the following concepts:

* religion or belief system (e.g. Buddhism, Mormonism, Judaism, Satanism)
* doctrine or philosophy (e.g. pacifism, olympism, nihilism)
* theory developed by an individual (e.g. Marxism, Maoism, see also List of ideologies named after people)
* political movement (e.g. feminism, egalitarianism)
* artistic movement (e.g. cubism)
* action, process or practice (e.g. voyeurism)
* characteristic, quality or origin (e.g. heroism)
* state or condition (e.g. pauperism)
* excess or disease (e.g. botulism)
* prejudice or bias (e.g. racism, sexism)
* characteristic speech patterns (e.g. Yogiism, Bushism)

01/23/2009 10:19:13 PM · #405

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think I don't have much argument with you about this dahkota. We see alike on this matter. I disagree with Shannon, Spaz and trevytrev.

Perhaps I can stick it in their eye by pointing out under their view religion has the ability to prevent evil but atheism could never do that. ;)

Um, what? Nothing has the ability to PREVENT evil.

Untrue. A religious person could say, "because I am a Christian, I am going to fight poverty or stop my neighbor from abusing his kids". That is preventing evil from being done. The argument, apparently, is that nobody can say, "because I am an atheist..." because that apparently doesn't make sense.

How about, "because I am human and I car, I am going to fight poverty, blah blah blah." The christian doesn't have to say he is doing it because he is christian unless that is the only reason he is doing it. As I stated before, the atheist doesn't require a god to do good.

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

01/23/2009 10:20:25 PM · #406

I was using the dictionary definition.

-ist:
One that performs a specified action: lobbyist.
One that produces, makes, operates, plays, or is connected with a specified thing: novelist.
A specialist in a specified art, science, or skill: biologist.
An adherent or advocate of a specified doctrine, theory, or school of thought: anarchist.
One that is characterized by a specified trait or quality: romanticist.

The obvious lay understanding, as betrayed by the words "atheist" and "atheism", is that it is a system of thought.

But fine, how about "materialism". All atheists are "materialist" or at least all the atheists I know.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

01/23/2009 10:20:51 PM · #407

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You're not going to prevent evil though. You may be able to help stop evil people from doing evil things now and again, but you won't prevent it.

An aethist would say, "because I am a person that cares, I am going to fight poverty or stop my neighbor from abusing his kids".

I get the need for you to remind people that religions do good, but I think what you're missing is the fact that religious people, often, believe that they are only EVER doing good, even when they're not, and hide it behind a higher power.

When non-religious people do bad things and think it's good, we call it sociopathic behavior :)

01/23/2009 10:21:26 PM · #408

Originally posted by dahkota:

That wasn't my argument. Sure humans can prevent evil(even atheist ones), but they can't do it, apparently, because they are an atheist. They can't claim atheism as their inspiration.

Message edited by author 2009-01-23 22:22:09.

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

01/23/2009 10:22:52 PM · #409

Go back and reread my argument k10, you are down a rabbit hole.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

01/23/2009 10:24:42 PM · #410

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Go back and reread my argument k10, you are down a rabbit hole.

LOL, this whole conversational sidebar was a rabbit hole from the moment you began it.

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

01/23/2009 10:30:36 PM · #411

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

That wasn't my argument. Sure humans can prevent evil(even atheist ones), but they can't do it, apparently, because they are an atheist. They can't claim atheism as their inspiration.

Why do they need outside inspiration? Why do they need outside purpose to do good? Your reasoning here is lost on me completely.

trevytrev

Canon EOS-5D

01/23/2009 10:36:35 PM · #412

Along the same lines as

dahkota's last post, do you only do good things because of god? Would you not stop your neighbor from beating his wife and kids if you didn't believe in god?

01/23/2009 10:40:39 PM · #413

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

A religious person could say, "because I am a Christian, I am going to fight poverty or stop my neighbor from abusing his kids".

That's precisely the justification Christians have used to burn witches. Some prevention.

01/23/2009 10:46:25 PM · #414

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That wasn't my argument. Sure humans can prevent evil(even atheist ones), but they can't do it, apparently, because they are an atheist. They can't claim atheism as their inspiration.

Why do they need outside inspiration? Why do they need outside purpose to do good? Your reasoning here is lost on me completely.

I'm agreeing with k10 that this IS all one big rabbit hole. I'll just try to explain a bit here. I'm not saying atheists can't do go or that they don't do good. My point is that Shannon is saying atheism shouldn't even be thought of as a thing. It's a lack of belief rather than some positive belief (according to him). My simple point is to say, ok fine, if it's a lack of belief then you can't utilize it as inspiration for anything, good or bad. You can't point to a lack of belief as inspiration. Humanists have other inspirations (maybe the belief in kindness for humanity, or fairness/justice), but we shouldn't mix those inspirations up with atheism.

Religion, on the other hand, can inspire activity. One can say, "because I believe God wants us to feed the poor, I will do so!" It doesn't have to be a religious person's ONLY inspiration (they too could be inspired by kindness for humanity or fairness/justice), but it can be among them.

The whole thing was just poking a bit of fun at Shannon's slightly odd refusal to admit atheism as a system of belief. I pointed out the oxymoronic nature of the words "atheism" and "atheist" because the dictionary definition would say those suffixes denote a system of thought.

01/23/2009 10:47:07 PM · #415

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

how about "materialism". All atheists are "materialist" or at least all the atheists I know.

How about "atheism?" All the atheists I know think your god falls into the same category as you apparently regard all other gods: mythical. Whatever else they may think is irrelevant to the definition.

01/23/2009 10:49:51 PM · #416

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
how about "materialism". All atheists are "materialist" or at least all the atheists I know.

How about "atheism?" All the atheists I know think your god falls into the same category as you apparently regard all other gods: mythical. Whatever else they may think is irrelevant to the definition.

Just trying to peg you with a system of thought. You are a materialist. Period. You can't deny it. :) Materialism, is certainly a system of thought. So I'll just substitute materialism for atheism and the argument suddenly "clicks".

01/23/2009 10:50:14 PM · #417

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I pointed out the oxymoronic nature of the words "atheism" and "atheist" because the dictionary definition would say those suffixes denote a system of thought.

Woo... botulism is a system of thought. I shall do good deeds because I value toxic bacteria.

01/23/2009 10:52:10 PM · #418

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I pointed out the oxymoronic nature of the words "atheism" and "atheist" because the dictionary definition would say those suffixes denote a system of thought.

Woo... botulism is a system of thought. I shall do good deeds because I value toxic bacteria.

Nice try. :) the suffix "-ism" isn't part of that word. It comes from the latin "botulus" and more directly from the german "Botulismus"

Message edited by author 2009-01-23 22:53:04.

01/23/2009 10:58:16 PM · #419

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Materialism, is certainly a system of thought. So I'll just substitute materialism for atheism and the argument suddenly "clicks".

What argument? That atheism is does not motivate people to do good or bad? Hellooooo....

Originally posted by scalvert:

There is no "atheism entity" to be patronized, for good or evil.

Originally posted by scalvert:

There is nothing that you do, good or bad, for the sake of NOT believing in Zeus. You don't even think of it, and live life for other reasons- in your case perhaps trying to be "good" to please an invisible and intangible master, and in mine because I think it's good to be good.

To suggest that motivation to be a good person is even needed is pathetic... as if you'd be a scoundrel if you didn't believe somebody was watching. Sad.

01/23/2009 10:59:25 PM · #420

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My simple point is to say, ok fine, if it's a lack of belief then you can't utilize it as inspiration for anything, good or bad. You can't point to a lack of belief as inspiration. Humanists have other inspirations (maybe the belief in kindness for humanity, or fairness/justice), but we shouldn't mix those inspirations up with atheism.

You're still not making much sense. No one is using atheism as inspiration. Additionally, atheism and humanism are not mutually exclusive like atheism and christianism are. See, doesn't that sound strange? Atheism is in opposition to theism (say non-theism or untheism) so one could say I am a theist or I am a non-theist, but Atheism cannot be used like christianism.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The whole thing was just poking a bit of fun at Shannon's slightly odd refusal to admit atheism as a system of belief. I pointed out the oxymoronic nature of the words "atheism" and "atheist" because the dictionary definition would say those suffixes denote a system of thought.

Atheism is not a system of beliefs just like theism is not. You cannot define anything about a person when calling them a theist except when stating they believe in a god - all else is up for speculation. Same with atheism - you can state they don't believe in a god but all else is up for speculation.

From your favorite web source: "Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods..." it is NOT a set of beliefs, it is a position beliefs are based on, just as theism is.

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

01/23/2009 10:59:34 PM · #421

Originally posted by scalvert:

To suggest that motivation to be a good person is even needed is pathetic... as if you'd be a scoundrel if you didn't believe somebody was watching. Sad.

Shannon. Knock it off. We all have motivations for everything we do. Don't be an ass.

scarbrd

Leica M10

01/23/2009 11:01:17 PM · #422

Originally posted by scalvert:

To suggest that motivation to be a good person is even needed is pathetic... as if you'd be a scoundrel if you didn't believe somebody was watching. Sad.

Actually I know people exactly like that. One even told me she has to wake up in the morning and pray to good, otherwise she would do evil things. Sad is right.

01/23/2009 11:01:47 PM · #423

K guys. You all win on this one. My BP is starting to rise and I should just stop. We can return to our normally broadcast thread.

In the end I agree with dahkota.

01/23/2009 11:04:42 PM · #424

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

It comes from the latin "botulus" and more directly from the german "Botulismus"