?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

01/23/2009 08:10:07 PM · #376

I totally disagree Shannon. Are you telling me that during the Cultural Revolution or the Bolshevik Revolution nobody ever persecuted members of the religious world because they believed these people were spreading lies and harming society? THERE IS NO GOD! (bash) That every time this occurred the slogan was YOU ARE NOT ALLOWING FOR THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE PEOPLE! (bash) I think this assertion is silly. All four of my grandparents were in Russia during the revolution living as Mennonites. I have journals from my great-grandmother and from my grandfather. I can tell you what they thought the motivation of the persecution was. It wasn't theoretical communism. These were Mennonite farmers. They had very little means of "holding down the masses". There was little point in the persecution if the purpose was to free the rest of the country from their domination.

Message edited by author 2009-01-23 20:13:01.

trevytrev

Canon EOS-5D

01/23/2009 08:13:52 PM · #377

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by trevytrev:
Here is the Wiki definition of Communism:

Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.[1][2][3] Karl Marx posited that communism would be the final stage in human society, following a socialist stage, which would be achieved through a proletarian revolution. "Pure communism" in the Marxian sense refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life.

Nowhere is it stated that the main purpose, or even an important pillar of the belief of communism, is a world with no religion, or more importantly, a world with no belief in a higher being. Marx's view was merely that religion is used by those in a higher socioeconomic position to keep those in a lower socioeconomic position in a check, the promise of better things to come if you ride out the tough times in this life. He wasn't pushing atheism, he was pushing equality among the people and he saw that religion was used as an ether to anesthetize the people.

I'm gonna go with Marx over wiki on that one. If Marx felt that the abolition of religion was important to the foundation of communism, what are we left with by default? Atheism.

He only thought it was important for the above stated reason, his main goal was equality of the people and he felt religion got in the way of that goal. You make it seem like the main purpose of communism was to preach to the world there is no god, not so, not even close.

01/23/2009 08:22:01 PM · #378

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Are you telling me that during the Cultural Revolution or the Bolshevik Revolution nobody ever persecuted members of the religious world because they believed these people were spreading lies and harming society? THERE IS NO GOD! (bash) That every time this occurred the slogan was YOU ARE NOT ALLOWING FOR THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE PEOPLE! (bash)

I'm saying they were pushing the idea that the people, and only the people, control their own destinies. Anyone who claimed people were subject to the will of a god/czar/business owner/etc. was subject to persecution. If it were only a religious thing, the latter groups would have been spared.

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

01/23/2009 08:24:51 PM · #379

Well, I'll just tuck all these little arguments away and bring them up the next time someone starts bitching about Religion and the Evil it does. I see a complete double standard.

trevytrev

Canon EOS-5D

01/23/2009 08:34:30 PM · #380

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Well, I'll just tuck all these little arguments away and bring them up the next time someone starts bitching about Religion and the Evil it does. I see a complete double standard.

What is Religions main purpose? What is Communism main purpose? One deals with god the other doesn't(and I don't mean the lack thereof), it's not a double standard because communism is not atheism. Make sure you tuck those in tight becuase you won't be needing those any time soon;-)

01/23/2009 08:38:47 PM · #381

So can anybody give me some examples of non-atheist communists persecuting other groups? If not, why not?

01/23/2009 08:48:50 PM · #382

Another interesting question: Has anything good ever been done in the name of atheism?

01/23/2009 08:50:33 PM · #383

Your posts are a throwback to heliocentric/geocentric arguments: you seem to be obsessed with the notion that the whole universe of Communism revolves around the disbelief of gods. It doesn't, and the idea fails even basic scrutiny... ANY institution that claimed power over the people (not just religion) was subject to persecution, and some religions were openly practiced, even endorsed, under Communist rule. Heck, basing a society on disbelief doesn't even make sense as a principle ("We're going to set up a government this way because there's no such thing as unicorns" -huh?). The guiding principle was that the people work collectively for themselves, not subject to kings, clergy, a merchant class or any other puppetmaster. Oh, the irony of Stalin.

01/23/2009 08:58:58 PM · #384

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Has anything good ever been done in the name of atheism?

Oy. There is no "atheism entity" to be patronized, for good or evil. Nobody will ever plant a flag on Mars in the name of not believing in Santa Claus because it pleases that disbelief. You're not making sense.

Message edited by author 2009-01-23 20:59:51.

01/23/2009 09:15:14 PM · #385

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Has anything good ever been done in the name of atheism?

Oy. There is no "atheism entity" to be patronized, for good or evil. Nobody will ever plant a flag on Mars in the name of not believing in Santa Claus because it pleases that disbelief. You're not making sense.

But certainly it's a worldview. Has it ever spurred people to good? Has the disbelief in God caused good action? You are quick to say people don't go around doing evil in it's name, I'm curious if you think people go around doing good because they are atheist?

01/23/2009 09:15:38 PM · #386

Okay, Achoo, you are tying religious belief (Atheism) with form of Government (Communism). Does this hold true in all cases?

01/23/2009 09:17:42 PM · #387

Originally posted by dahkota:

Okay, Achoo, you are tying religious belief (Atheism) with form of Government (Communism). Does this hold true in all cases?

I was asking that question. Does it? Can we find communist examples where theism of some type plays a role? and more importantly do we see examples of persecution perpetrated by those communists? I don't know the answer.

01/23/2009 09:17:43 PM · #388

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Has anything good ever been done in the name of atheism?

Oy. There is no "atheism entity" to be patronized, for good or evil. Nobody will ever plant a flag on Mars in the name of not believing in Santa Claus because it pleases that disbelief. You're not making sense.

But certainly it's a worldview. Has it ever spurred people to good? Has the disbelief in God caused good action? You are quick to say people don't go around doing evil in it's name, I'm curious if you think people go around doing good because they are atheist?

those who follow humanism and variations do good.

01/23/2009 09:21:34 PM · #389

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

No, I'm asking the opposite. You tie communism and atheism. Is it true that all forms of government can be tied to a religion? Or all government entities to a particular religion? For example, early Rome originally tied to paganism, later Rome to Christianity, etc. Is there a relationship with government and religion?

01/23/2009 09:22:03 PM · #390

Originally posted by dahkota:

those who follow humanism and variations do good.

I know. but do they do good "because there is no God"?

01/23/2009 09:23:33 PM · #391

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I was asking that question. Does it? Can we find communist examples where theism of some type plays a role? and more importantly do we see examples of persecution perpetrated by those communists? I don't know the answer.

No, I'm asking the opposite. You tie communism and atheism. Is it true that all forms of government can be tied to a religion? Or all government entities to a particular religion? For example, early Rome originally tied to paganism, later Rome to Christianity, etc. Is there a relationship with government and religion?

Hmmm. Not always. Many allow freedom of thought and do not have an official worldview. I would argue, however, that the official worldview of the Soviet Union and of China is atheism.

01/23/2009 09:34:12 PM · #392

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:
those who follow humanism and variations do good.

I know. but do they do good "because there is no God"?

No, their worldview isn't centered on a god. We've had this discussion before in other forms but it boils down to doing good because that is what you do - a God is not required and no thought is given to one. And I've said before, I find it sad that there are people who only do good because they believe there 'is' as God.

I think the problem might be that you don't comprehend the idea of existing without God or without a belief in God, much like atheists don't understand why you require one.

But you are asking atheists to essentially 'prove a negative.' you want an answer that doesn't exist. "Why does an atheist do good if there is no God" is another form of your question. Do you see how it is a loaded question of sorts?

01/23/2009 09:45:57 PM · #393

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But certainly it's a worldview. Has it ever spurred people to good?

You're barking up the wrong tree as if Atheism is a "thing" to aspire to or please or an ideal to work towards. It's a nothing- literally no different than you NOT believing in Zeus... you simply discard the idea as a myth and move on. There is nothing that you do, good or bad, for the sake of NOT believing in Zeus. You don't even think of it, and live life for other reasons- in your case perhaps trying to be "good" to please an invisible and intangible master, and in mine because I think it's good to be good.

01/23/2009 09:51:27 PM · #394

Originally posted by dahkota:

But you are asking atheists to essentially 'prove a negative.' you want an answer that doesn't exist. "Why does an atheist do good if there is no God" is another form of your question. Do you see how it is a loaded question of sorts?

Yes, it's obviously loaded. If people are quick to say, "hey! Stalin didn't kill all those people because he was an atheist!" they have to also say "Nobody goes around doing good because they are atheist." That's fine. We can consider atheism to be amoral. But then people like to jump on religion and say, "hey! People do bad stuff because they are religious!" but fail to also say, "Hey! People do good stuff because they are religious!" Perhaps all we can say is "religion is moral". That is, good and bad can be done in its name.

I never hear Shannon or Spaz or really anybody mention the good religion has done. Is this irrelevant to the case?

Message edited by author 2009-01-23 21:52:31.

01/23/2009 09:54:21 PM · #395

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I was asking that question. Does it? Can we find communist examples where theism of some type plays a role? and more importantly do we see examples of persecution perpetrated by those communists? I don't know the answer.

No, I'm asking the opposite. You tie communism and atheism. Is it true that all forms of government can be tied to a religion? Or all government entities to a particular religion? For example, early Rome originally tied to paganism, later Rome to Christianity, etc. Is there a relationship with government and religion?

Hmmm. Not always. Many allow freedom of thought and do not have an official worldview. I would argue, however, that the official worldview of the Soviet Union and of China is atheism.

So a government can have a worldview. Can a religious body have a worldview?

01/23/2009 09:56:58 PM · #396

Originally posted by dahkota:

So a government can have a worldview. Can a religious body have a worldview?

Worldview is just my way of pointing to a belief system without using the word religion because I know tons of people would be all in a hub-bub if I said atheism was a religion.

So, yes, a religious body most certainly has a worldview.

01/23/2009 10:01:08 PM · #397

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:
But you are asking atheists to essentially 'prove a negative.' you want an answer that doesn't exist. "Why does an atheist do good if there is no God" is another form of your question. Do you see how it is a loaded question of sorts?

Yes, it's obviously loaded. If people are quick to say, "hey! Stalin didn't kill all those people because he was an atheist!" they have to also say "Nobody goes around doing good because they are atheist." That's fine. We can consider atheism to be amoral. But then people like to jump on religion and say, "hey! People do bad stuff because they are religious!" but fail to also say, "Hey! People do good stuff because they are religious!" Perhaps all we can say is "religion is moral". That is, good and bad can be done in its name.

I never hear Shannon or Spaz or really anybody mention the good religion has done. Is this irrelevant to the case?

Well, my whole point has been to show you that religious or not, people can do good things and people can do bad things. Same goes for religious groups or governments. My point is that good and bad are not related to government or religion, it is related to people. It doesn't matter what religion or non-religion in which you believe, nor under which government you exist; all people have the opportunity to either do good or bad and it is up to them to choose which. If a large group of people, under a particular banner, whether government, religion (or even biker gang or sorority) get together and decide to do something good or evil, God doesn't come into it; it is still a choice of the people in the group. However, the group or the government does earn a good (or bad) name (reputation) dependent on the actions of their followers. I think a few people here throw the bad of religion in your face because you hold that as the measure of good.

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

01/23/2009 10:05:20 PM · #398

I think I don't have much argument with you about this dahkota. We see alike on this matter. I disagree with Shannon, Spaz and trevytrev.

Perhaps I can stick it in their eye by pointing out under their view religion has the ability to prevent evil but atheism could never do that. ;)

K3Master

Pentax K-3

01/23/2009 10:06:37 PM · #399

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Um, what? Nothing has the ability to PREVENT evil.