Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

12/18/2008 04:32:21 PM · #1876

Originally posted by yanko:

How in the world does he have the time to care for his patients aand argue against heathens all day?

The answer is "snow".

12/18/2008 05:15:33 PM · #1877

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:
To take this back to the gay rights discussion, I am not gay. I cannot judge the 'morals' of being gay because any judgment I make would be monday morning quarterbacking. I can state that I would not chose to be gay, but I can't possibly know that without being in the situation. So, rather than decide what is 'most moral' in the situation, I'd rather assume that the person making the decision *is* making the most moral decision given the circumstance.

Do you believe that within the constraints of my faith and my particular situation that being against gay marriage is the "most moral" action? That advocating for my position within governement in a peaceful manner is the "most moral" action? or at least do you give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that to be true?

Hey ask me that same question but instead of "most moral" use most selfish instead? :)

12/18/2008 05:24:37 PM · #1878

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Sure. But I feel the same about a child of a gypsy who has been taught that it is okay to steal.

I cannot fault for you believing in what you do - it was the way you were raised. I can question you and try to show you where I believe you err, but I can't force you to agree with my morals nor can I blame you for believing in yours.

Message edited by author 2008-12-18 17:26:51.

12/18/2008 05:25:59 PM · #1879

Originally posted by dahkota:

Sure. But I feel the same about a child of a gypsy who has been taught that it is okay to steal.

Haha. So what's that supposed to mean? I think it's ok but I really know it's wrong? You never did respond to what you meant by "In the case of discrimination, it is not ok to discriminate against anyone, based on sex or race (or handicap, hair color, number of toes, age, favorite color...)." For someone who seems to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, that seems like an awfully concrete statement. Were you saying this to reflect your own personal view or do you think this view applies to everybody else as well?

Message edited by author 2008-12-18 17:30:22.

12/18/2008 05:26:28 PM · #1880

Originally posted by yanko:

Hey ask me that same question but instead of "most moral" use most selfish instead? :)

Man, aren't you feeling your oats today!

12/18/2008 05:28:02 PM · #1881

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:
Sure. But I feel the same about a child of a gypsy who has been taught that it is okay to steal.

Haha. So what's that supposed to mean? I think it's ok but I really know it's wrong?

Sorry - I edited it to add:
I cannot fault for you believing in what you do - it was the way you were raised. I can question you and try to show you where I believe you err, but I can't force you to agree with my morals nor can I blame you for believing in yours.

I didn't mean to sound flippant - truly that was not my intention.

12/18/2008 05:29:11 PM · #1882

I don't think discrimination is morally right, nor in any case can it be the most moral action. So, that is why I compared it to a child taught to steal.

12/18/2008 05:29:20 PM · #1883

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Hey ask me that same question but instead of "most moral" use most selfish instead? :)

Man, aren't you feeling your oats today!

It's foggy outside. That must be it. :P

12/18/2008 05:36:34 PM · #1884

Originally posted by dahkota:

Naw, I didn't take it personally. Out of curiosity, would you consider yourself a pacifist? Is there any time when war is justified? I applaud your ability to assume the best in people, but I question how helpful you are in advancing the cause for "good" when you never stand up against "evil".

As a completely different aside, does everybody who relies on the "it's the way you were raised" reasoning for ideas they don't agree with deny that there are adult conversions to or away from Christianity or other faiths?

Message edited by author 2008-12-18 17:37:19.

12/18/2008 05:44:41 PM · #1885

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

As a completely different aside, does everybody who relies on the "it's the way you were raised" reasoning for ideas they don't agree with deny that there are adult conversions to or away from Christianity or other faiths?

I don't deny that. What's your point?

12/18/2008 05:47:06 PM · #1886

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Naw, I didn't take it personally. Out of curiosity, would you consider yourself a pacifist? Is there any time when war is justified? I applaud your ability to assume the best in people, but I question how helpful you are in advancing the cause for "good" when you never stand up against "evil".

As a completely different aside, does everybody who relies on the "it's the way you were raised" deny that there are adult conversions to or away from Christianity or other faiths?

First, I am an 'adult' convert away from christianity. Yes, I believe there are adult converts - check the local prison for example. I used raised and compared it to a child, which was off, I'll admit. Any indoctrination into a group could be a form of being raised. Even DPC has an indoctrination period of a sort.

Yes, I am a pacifist - I have admitted it and will admit it freely. I don't think evil, anger, and hate, promotes anything but itself. Standing up against evil doesn't require using evil to gain an edge; have you heard the phrase, "Killing them with kindness?" I deal with huge numbers of people every day, most with a problem, an issue, something making them angry. I fix it. I solve problems, commiserate, just listen, smile. It does a lot more than evil could ever do. And while I might only change one person at a time, those people go forward in their day happier, and hopefully spread it around.

I thought about this on the drive home. I think, for you, good is in your God and your faith is in your God. I think good is within the world and my faith lies within the world. We both believe in good, we just find it in different places. We both have faith, we just place it in different places.

If one takes the sum total of man, rather than its constituent parts, I think one finds a greater amount of good in the world.

12/18/2008 05:48:17 PM · #1887

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
As a completely different aside, does everybody who relies on the "it's the way you were raised" reasoning for ideas they don't agree with deny that there are adult conversions to or away from Christianity or other faiths?

I don't deny that. What's your point?

I don't know. I get a lot of, "well you believe your freak religion because you were raised that way. If you were raised in the UAE, you'd be Muslim". It seems to neglect that there are reasoned adults who "change their mind" as it were about stuff like this.

12/18/2008 05:52:50 PM · #1888

Originally posted by dahkota:

I'm not going to argue with this. It's well said. I'm "almost" a pacifist. :) I think there are very few circumstances where war is justified, although I believe there are probably true justifications out there. As far as the "greater amount of good", I guess we can just agree to disagree. ;) As Obama just said today, "we can disagree without being disagreeable".

12/18/2008 05:56:50 PM · #1889

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
As a completely different aside, does everybody who relies on the "it's the way you were raised" reasoning for ideas they don't agree with deny that there are adult conversions to or away from Christianity or other faiths?

I don't deny that. What's your point?

I don't know. I get a lot of, "well you believe your freak religion because you were raised that way. If you were raised in the UAE, you'd be Muslim". It seems to neglect that there are reasoned adults who "change their mind" as it were about stuff like this.

Why do you teach your children the stuff you teach them if you are not trying to affect how they will be as adults, religion aside?

12/18/2008 05:57:42 PM · #1890

Originally posted by yanko:

Why do you teach your children the stuff you teach them if you are not trying to affect how they will be as adults, religion aside?

Oh, for exactly that reason. But not every person is a product of his/her childhood. Some people are truly "changed".

12/18/2008 06:36:19 PM · #1891

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Why do you teach your children the stuff you teach them if you are not trying to affect how they will be as adults, religion aside?

Oh, for exactly that reason. But not every person is a product of his/her childhood. Some people are truly "changed".

True. Without the potiental of change would anybody carry on arguments and discussions like this with adults? Personally, I think it's quite rare for an adult to change because so few question everything and don't stop until they get real answers based on reason and proof. No offense but I do blame religion in general for this. Even if you're not religious it is still hard to escape religious practices because it is so entrenched in society for so long that it has become common place so when things like gay marriage comes up even the non-religious will oppose it by default without actually thinking about it. It is not until you undo all of the damage religion does to reason that you can get someone to see.

To get back to gay marriage and putting aside religion and the need for an ultimate authority, would you agree that all men (and all women) should be treated equally? Is it beneficial to society and to the longevity of humanity as a whole if we treated all people equally?

12/18/2008 06:56:48 PM · #1892

Originally posted by yanko:

To get back to gay marriage and putting aside religion and the need for an ultimate authority, would you agree that all men (and all women) should be treated equally? Is it beneficial to society and to the longevity of humanity as a whole if we treated all people equally?

You know, truthfully, we're gone over the gay marriage quite enough. I've stated my position and to just reiterate it now would be more harmful than beneficial. I was having fun talking about Dark Knight morality.

How about this one? Perhaps it's a bit of a Rorschach, but I picked up an analogy of Christ at the end of the movie when Batman takes on being the "bad guy" because it's what Gotham needs him to be. Interesting.

12/18/2008 07:34:58 PM · #1893

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

How about this one? Perhaps it's a bit of a Rorschach, but I picked up an analogy of Christ at the end of the movie when Batman takes on being the "bad guy" because it's what Gotham needs him to be. Interesting.

Lets put that in real world context. He is George Bush. Think about it. Batman works outside of the law. He tortures to get answers out of the evil ones. He even used wiretapping in the movie to locate the evil doers.

Message edited by author 2008-12-18 19:36:14.

12/18/2008 08:18:17 PM · #1894

How many like The Dandy Warhols? Currently my favorite group. I like the lyrics to their short song "Mohammed"

Again and again
I get up and say
I only want to get it right
I only want to do the right thing
but all these demons harass my soul

I won't be today
I'm alone again
no one can make that alive
no one can say they're better, not when
all this freedom you get is a lie

again and again

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

12/19/2008 12:35:50 PM · #1895

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

To say different people will act differently is probably very true. Does that change what the "most moral" action was after the fact? Is it valid to analyze the situation afterward and conclude which action was "most moral"? Even if it's not valid, do people do it anyway? Even if we act "on instinct" at times in certain situations, we as humans certainly go back and apply "higher thought" to a situation. How many times have you done something and then spent hours or days reflecting on the situation and whether what you did was what ought to have been done? I've been there plenty. Sometimes I conclude I did the right thing, sometimes not.

I am sure that most people, like me, periodically assess how their behaviour accords with their own moral standards. However, I would make a couple of observations.

Many people appear to have multiple standards: what they expect from others, what they expect from themselves, and how they present those standards to others. They are influenced heavily by upbringing and society. Moral standards change from time to time through lifetime experience.

I would also say that situations in which we make morality judgements are also incredibly complicated. The â��factsâ�� are almost infinitely variable, so an accurate objective assessment of their status is almost impossible.

Therefore, while we might be introspective, it is highly doubtful that there is any objective moral weight can be attributed to our subjective assessment of an intensely complicated fact pattern.

Mousie

12/19/2008 01:09:49 PM · #1896

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Oh obviously. I spent my entire life being indoctrinated by society to grow up, get a wife, and make babies, and none of that stuck.

Mousie

12/19/2008 01:54:08 PM · #1897

How many like ...And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead? Currently in heavy rotation. I love the lyrics to their epic song "So Divided"

Hear the noise back in town
Let's gather everyone
And go see what they're
Up to now

Driving in, Driving out
From hotel to the bar
All our friends are here
But somehow we seem so divided

Hear the voice crying out
Screaming every song
But did everyone
Understand?

Diving in, Diving out
The terrified crowd
All our bands are here
But somehow they seem so divided

Want to see
Where the fight is?
Look around...

I hear the sound of a voice inside my head
Saying things that I can't understand
It's telling me a life may soon be dead
I wonder from what hand

The things they say are too hard to conceive
I try my best to never listen
Can't you see I'm struggling to conceal
These thoughts from everyone?

It's not that I don't care
And I don't want to hurt you
It's just the worst I fear
Is coming out
Coming out of me
It's coming out
Coming out of my head

You know I've heard you say that I'm not real
I know you think that I can't understand
Truth is I'm trying hard to deal
It's not what I had planned

It's not that I don't care
It's not that I don't love you
It's just that I am here
To put you out
Put you out of your misery
I'll put you out
Of your misery

All of you lovers who think you're in love
I'll put you out of your misery
All of the children born under the sky
I'll put them out of their misery

Venom
You can't conceive
Is pouring out
Of the depths of me

You think you're free
You've been deceived
I'll put you out
Put you out of your misery

You think the future is warm and bright
But it is death and I'm your destiny
You think you'll be protected by God
I'll put you out of your misery
I was put down
To bring you down
And put you out

Awww! It's so uplifting and topical! ;)

12/19/2008 05:18:58 PM · #1898

Interesting this just came across Google news today given our recent talks.

Basically it's a redo of the Milgram experiment.
Shocking study finds most will torture if ordered

12/19/2008 05:41:29 PM · #1899

Achoo,

If I remember correctly, you, at one time, posted that you were, essentially, a divine command theorist with regard to ethics. Many of us here, in other threads and above, point to a differing ethical theory. I think I finally found the closest thing that might explain a little, give you an alternate viewpoint, or a glimpse into our (or at least my) alternate viewpoint, at least with regard to how our/my ethical system works. For a wiki summary, click here and for a more in depth overview. Not necessarily for discussion, but I just thought you would be interested at the prospective/idea.