Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

12/15/2008 09:30:08 PM · #1776

Originally posted by dahkota:

Achoo, I never said I haven't failed. I said I haven't sinned and I haven't broken my moral rule.

OK, all I care about is if you have broken your moral rule. You said you follow the Golden Rule. Good enough. That's a decent code. Personally, I'd be willing to wager a large amount of money that if I had some magic "way back machine" and could watch your life, we'd see you broke that rule probably within the last week. Easy. There is no way you haven't. You've cut someone off in traffic, or didn't let someone in because you were in a hurry, or didn't give something to that man holding the sign, or failed to give the benefit of the doubt to your coworker, or whatever. But we don't need to keep arguing. I simply don't and won't believe your denial. You can ponder my words yourself.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

12/15/2008 09:31:04 PM · #1777

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Pleading ignorance with God seems to only work until God says, "OK, JMart. I'll spot you all that. Did you keep your own laws of right and wrong as you saw them?" Then all you can do is give a big old Homer "D'oh!"

I won't have to plead ignorance; I have not failed. But enough of us - since you believe in sin and regard as possible meeting God upon your death and having to explain to him your actions, what will you say, since you have failed as you believe everyone has failed?

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

12/15/2008 09:31:14 PM · #1778

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Everybody has failed. Period. My simple point is that "all HAVE failed". It's an obvious given in our world.

Bzzzt! We already established that there are exceptions, thus your statement is patently false. Further, sin has a specific religious context. It's not equivalent to right and wrong, but merely something that's prohibited by a god. For example, killing is considered a sin, but not necessarily wrong because God supposedly demands stoning and other untimely deaths for certain crimes. Now, if you think that particular god is complete fiction, then whatever he/she/it supposedly prohibited is a moot point. So if Athena declared that eating broccoli is a sin, would you consider yourself a sinner for that? Probably not. You'd have a chuckle and a second helping because Athena is fiction and never existed to make such a rule. The same applies to Horus, Odin, Vishnu and 1,000 other gods that you believe to be myths. Most of the world doesn't believe your god existed either, and so those associated sins are simply not applicable. We can still believe in right and wrong... just not because your god said so.

haha. Whatever dude. Keep spinning.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

12/15/2008 09:37:44 PM · #1779

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by dahkota:
Achoo, I never said I haven't failed. I said I haven't sinned and I haven't broken my moral rule.

OK, all I care about is if you have broken your moral rule. You said you follow the Golden Rule. Good enough. That's a decent code. Personally, I'd be willing to wager a large amount of money that if I had some magic "way back machine" and could watch your life, we'd see you broke that rule probably within the last week. Easy. There is no way you haven't. You've cut someone off in traffic, or didn't let someone in because you were in a hurry, or didn't give something to that man holding the sign, or failed to give the benefit of the doubt to your coworker, or whatever. But we don't need to keep arguing. I simply don't and won't believe your denial. You can ponder my words yourself.

So, if I unintentionally or unknowingly miss the opportunity, I have failed? Crap - why bother at all - it probably happens 100 times a day - I am damned for all eternity! Additionally, the rule is treat others as you expect or want to be treated. If my co-worker has doubts about my judgement, I fully expect them to question it until they are satisfied with my answer. Nope, the closest I've come this week is thinking about what I would like to do to the guy who almost broadsided me on my way to work. But I didn't cuss or honk or flip him off. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he made a mistake and moved on with my life.

I think I understand now - this is akin to the pot calling the kettle black. You move through your day, believing that you are sinning left and right, so you assume that everyone else must be the same. See - different way of looking at the world. I prefer to believe everyone is good. you prefer to believe everyone has failed as you believe you have failed. I prefer my belief system, as I previously stated, to yours.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

12/15/2008 09:44:00 PM · #1780

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Pleading ignorance with God seems to only work until God says, "OK, JMart. I'll spot you all that. Did you keep your own laws of right and wrong as you saw them?" Then all you can do is give a big old Homer "D'oh!"

I won't have to plead ignorance; I have not failed. But enough of us - since you believe in sin and regard as possible meeting God upon your death and having to explain to him your actions, what will you say, since you have failed as you believe everyone has failed?

I will point to Jesus and say I have been "padah". Redeemed. Bought with a price. No action of mine can change that. It's as indelible as the tattoo on my leg that says the same. I do not deserve heaven, but my admission has been paid by someone who could afford it.

This is the incredible good news of my faith. We are completely screwed up. Fallen. Broken. Shattered. In fact we are so broken we rarely even know this to be truth. The good news is someone is looking for us. The shepherd has left his ninety-nine sheep to find the one lost one. Wow!

Whether you believe in this or not (and I understand you don't), I think some of the most beautiful prose ever written/told is the story of the Prodigal Son. It is hard to read and not sense the grace and mercy evident in it even if it is nothing but a piece of fiction.

Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.
"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

There is Christianity boiled down to a simple story.

Message edited by author 2008-12-15 21:48:31.

BeeCee

Nikon D40

12/15/2008 10:02:35 PM · #1781

"Sin" is a religious term, regardless if the concept is the same as "morality" or not. If you get the right to apply it to persons of no religion (even when they don't accept the application), then why can not those same persons use the term "marriage", which you claim for the exclusive right of the religious? If one is reserved for religion, keep the other one there too.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

12/15/2008 10:12:19 PM · #1782

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Actually... I'd plead, "Well I really tried my best, often failed, and sometimes I even blew stuff off and didn't even try... that's all that anyone can ask for, and if you can't accept it then you're an idiot, god or no god" before thumbing my nose and skipping off to wherever they put people who think capricious deities are not worth worshipping.

Which is, of course, when god taps my turned shoulder and reveals that it was all a test, then lets me into Heaven. It's my cosmic safety net, just in case gods exist. A nice god would know I'm a good guy and let me in no matter what blasphemies I'd commited... a cruel god isn't worth my time... on principle. Principle! It's amoral to worship a cruel god! My lack of faith is my very salvation. The kind god must reveal its kind nature or prove itself cruel.

And since I started it, I want to be clear:

It is intellectual violence to claim personal providence over another's morality and insist on judging it by standards that simply do not apply. To vest your own beliefs with universal and unprovable authority, and then use that as some sort of justification. I simply can not be fairly held to religious standards, but this debate shows just how far people will go to try!

It's simple. My morality takes into consideration the fallability of man. When I eat that bag of chips for dinner because I'm lazy, I know I could do better... but it is not a sin. It is a choice that has consequences. I get fat. I have to exercise later, if I want to get rid of the fat. I may feel bad about my lack of self control, but at the same time there is NO MORAL COMPONENT to enjoying a bag of chips (or not) in this context. I might even feel bad about promising myself I won't eat a whole bag of chips and then doing it anyway, but there is no moral consequence. The consequence is feeling bad about letting myself down, it's accruing a debt to be paid later (or not). That's as far as it goes!

To touch on the Golden Rule (which I follow fervently) DrAchoo, I think you have it all wrong. Do unto others... as you would have them do unto you. I don't cut people off in a car... intentionally. I'm sure I do unthinkingly on occasion, but I don't begrudge others making the same mistake. I am probably too kind in letting confused drivers have my place, but I won't budge an inch if I see someone trying to take advantage.

I may very well bitch out a friend on an angry day, just as I would cut them slack for doing the same to me. You are yet again applying YOUR morals ot OTHERS as if they were the same, when they are so obviously not. A murderer could follow the Golden Rule... if he didn't mind getting murdered. When you accept that people are not perfect, and accept that they do not always act in ways that even they themselves want, do unto others becomes... pretty broad.

My morality is simply not based on the idea that there is a 'more perfect' me that I fail to be, or that there is a 'more perfect' world that we could be in if we all didn't suck so bad. My morality acknowledges and even at times cherishes the faults of our existence, for that is WHAT IS, and we're already pretty damn lucky it turned out the way it did. Food doesn't have to taste good to nourish. Sex doesn't have to feel good to make babies. Clouds don't have to be pretty to bring rain. And just like that cloud does not sin when it rains on my parade, people don't sin if they do it either. They're just dicks.

rossbilly

Nikon D200

12/15/2008 10:15:44 PM · #1783

Interesting story Jason. Its also very disturbing.

Seeing that I 'created' my three daughters, and love them beyond measure... so WHY in the world would I ask them to pay some penance or penalty to me, when they are here BECAUSE of me??? Really? Should I rush to create a brother for them, so that he can die for their shortcomings? Sounds ludicrous in your version, too.

Is it really that difficult to comprehend? The supposed grace of Christianity is a story filled with hate and murder and ineptitude and sickness, all in the name of something which supposedly created us? Yeah, sounds like a loving and caring creature to me.

btw - WHAT are you going to do if, upon your demise, you face a being other than the god you expect? What if there IS no redeemer (Jesus)? Can't answer that any more succinctly or with any more 'authority' than anyone else, can you? You can only restate your beliefs. Do you laugh at the beliefs of other religions?

Do you not know they laugh at yours? (Yeah, I know... the christian god-story is right and all who oppose are wrong)

Stop pointing fingers already. Gay marriage IS the right of the people, despite your (or anyone else's) indoctrinations.

Message edited by author 2008-12-15 22:21:40.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/15/2008 10:18:53 PM · #1784

Originally posted by BeeCee:

Dun dun dun dunnnnn!

You will use our word whether you like it or not!

You will not use our word whether you like it or not!

12/15/2008 10:19:28 PM · #1785

Originally posted by Mousie:

It's simple. My morality takes into consideration the fallability of man.

That's sweet of you Mousie. Since it's obviously my human nature of xenophobia that doesn't allow me to understand gays and their desire for marriage, it's nice to know I'm forgiven by you. Maybe I'll go back and read this whole thread again with this understanding that you get where I'm coming from because I'm only human after all.

BeeCee, if I keep using the word "sin" it's just because it's shorter than writing "to miss the mark". I'm keeping religion out of this as I've really only been trying to deal with other people's morality. Forgive me if I keep using it.

12/15/2008 10:23:52 PM · #1786

Originally posted by rossbilly:

btw - WHAT are you going to do if, upon your demise, you face a being other than the god you expect? What if there IS no redeemer (Jesus)?

The good news is almost all other religions look to "the good life". On balance, I'll then point to my acts of purity and self-discipline and take my chances. I may not attain the highest heaven, but as I've read, I'll be ok. If it's not good enough, well, then I'm screwed and I can join you wherever.

My lot is cast though. I'm all in.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

12/15/2008 10:25:33 PM · #1787

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Mousie:
It's simple. My morality takes into consideration the fallability of man.

That's sweet of you Mousie. Since it's obviously my human nature of xenophobia that doesn't allow me to understand gays and their desire for marriage, it's nice to know I'm forgiven by you. Maybe I'll go back and read this whole thread again with this understanding that you get where I'm coming from because I'm only human after all.

Where did I mention forgiveness? Forgiveness is not a very influential component of my morality.

There you go projecting again, making all sorts of assumptions about the morality of others...

But I'm right there with you there on the human nature of xenophobia, or rather, the xenophobic nature of humanity. I expect it in people, really... that's why I make it a point to shower good will onto those who actively work to suppress it by making the appropriate choices, and try to frustrate those who would do otherwise. :)

Message edited by author 2008-12-15 22:31:10.

togtog

Nikon D300

12/15/2008 10:28:21 PM · #1788

Not to turn this into a religious debate, wait, or is it already. I've often wondered, what if God's and Satan's roles are actually reversed. Obviously an evil god would claim to be good and tell you not to trust any other god, and a good god might like spoiling his children with things like bacon, and pornography.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

12/15/2008 10:38:24 PM · #1789

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "[/i]

There is Christianity boiled down to a simple story.

So.....

Somehow because I took my life, the grace that I was shown, spurned it, became a waste of oxygen and a parasite to society.......and then managed to "Come back" it should be celebrated because I get up in the morning and DON'T trash my life any more?

Because I made it through, was graced with a second chance, I somehow should be paid more attention just for doing what I'm supposed to this time?

What a load of crap!

Anyone who is fortunate enough to be shown the grace to not be allowed to die by their own self-destructive actions should spend the rest of their lives trying to figure out why.....and doing the best they can to be a decent ordinary man like they were supposed to be in the first place.

I always thought the prodigal son story made zero sense.

What grace and mercy, by the way?

Your excerpt says "When he came to his senses"......where's the testimony of God's intervention?

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

12/15/2008 10:45:42 PM · #1790

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But there are no other gods, right?

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me."

If you're wrong, by your own book, you're screwed.

Can't hedge your bets and be principled at the same time.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/15/2008 11:07:12 PM · #1791

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

if I keep using the word "sin" it's just because it's shorter than writing "to miss the mark". I'm keeping religion out of this as I've really only been trying to deal with other people's morality. Forgive me if I keep using it.

Sin is a generally religious term. You cannot use the word and keep religion out of it. "To miss the mark" is also to miss the mark, since it assumes a goal.

12/15/2008 11:57:53 PM · #1792

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
if I keep using the word "sin" it's just because it's shorter than writing "to miss the mark". I'm keeping religion out of this as I've really only been trying to deal with other people's morality. Forgive me if I keep using it.

Sin is a generally religious term. You cannot use the word and keep religion out of it. "To miss the mark" is also to miss the mark, since it assumes a goal.

We all have a goal in our morality. Dahkota's is to follow the Golden Rule, etc. etc. etc.

12/15/2008 11:58:45 PM · #1793

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The good news is almost all other religions look to "the good life". On balance, I'll then point to my acts of purity and self-discipline and take my chances. I may not attain the highest heaven, but as I've read, I'll be ok.

But there are no other gods, right?

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me."

If you're wrong, by your own book, you're screwed.

Can't hedge your bets and be principled at the same time.

??? Ross asked me to hypothesize what I'd do if I suddenly found out I had been worshipping the wrong God. Obviously if that's true Exodus 20:3 means jack.

12/16/2008 12:04:15 AM · #1794

Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Mousie:
It's simple. My morality takes into consideration the fallability of man.

That's sweet of you Mousie. Since it's obviously my human nature of xenophobia that doesn't allow me to understand gays and their desire for marriage, it's nice to know I'm forgiven by you. Maybe I'll go back and read this whole thread again with this understanding that you get where I'm coming from because I'm only human after all.

Where did I mention forgiveness? Forgiveness is not a very influential component of my morality.

Maybe I took it a step too far. It sounds like you forgive yourself when you don't quite get things right because you know that's human nature. I was just taking your congenial nature and applying it to myself since it's only fair you apply principles you hold dear to yourself to others right? If you try hard but understand you are going to goof up and don't really beat yourself up too much about it, it's only fair you do the same for me.

My point is actually that I'm hearing a lot of self-love in these moral codes. Dahkota fails. Jeb fails. You fail. But you are all willing to understand humans aren't perfect and apply that to your failure. I just want to know you guys do the same for everybody else. And if you do, then I'm not sure why we are 1700 posts into this thread at all. I'm OK, you're OK, right? Frankly, I'm just calling BS on what everybody is typing. I don't see it play out in reality. Easy to justify yourselves, hard to justify others. Hell, Jeb shows every other post he's a long way from "I'm OK, you're OK".

12/16/2008 12:06:58 AM · #1795

Originally posted by togtog:

A really good point and interesting question. God and Satan, however, are not equals. This problem above is only a problem for theologies with more than one god.

FireBird

12/16/2008 12:27:06 AM · #1796

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

God and Satan, however, are not equals.

But isn't Satan known as the deceiver? A charlatan with the powers to pose as a god to unsuspecting humans?

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/16/2008 12:43:25 AM · #1797

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
if I keep using the word "sin" it's just because it's shorter than writing "to miss the mark". I'm keeping religion out of this as I've really only been trying to deal with other people's morality. Forgive me if I keep using it.

Sin is a generally religious term. You cannot use the word and keep religion out of it. "To miss the mark" is also to miss the mark, since it assumes a goal.

We all have a goal in our morality. Dahkota's is to follow the Golden Rule, etc. etc. etc.

Your counter to an absolute is another absolute? :-/

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

12/16/2008 12:48:16 AM · #1798

Question for Jason - why is it so important to you that everyone else accept that they are failures, regardless of what code they use? Why cannot they be successful in living their lives by their chosen moral codes?

12/16/2008 01:43:55 AM · #1799

Originally posted by Melethia:

Well, the point within this little argument was to show that Flash may have had a point after all. I certainly don't like his style of argument and he can often open himself up to valid counterpoints, but he was trying to say "All have failed". People were getting too mired down in the idea this was coming from the Bible and with the word "sin". I was trying to show that we could forget the Bible and the word "sin" and just ask everybody if they have lived up to their own standard. Nobody answered to the affirmative. Dahkota is still trying to, but she used mulligans and workarounds to get there.

In the larger context I think the world is better off when we realize we are no better than our neighbor. The evil we see in the world is also within us. We do our best to deny it and set the bar of acceptability just below our feet, but this does not reflect the true state of things. Coming to grips with this truth is the first step to healing. Even if I leave Christianity out of it, pride, the putting of oneself above others, is the source for nearly all the evil in the world. The easiest way to give your neighbor a break is to realize we need a break just as often. Let me ask this. If Dahkota truly is as perfect with her code as she claims, shouldn't she have the right to be frustrated with the rest of us? If we can't keep our own codes as well, aren't we letting her down in this social contract we are all a part of? Seems logical to me.

At some point in each of our lives this truth (our failure) makes itself evident. The question is what do we do at that point? Do we shove it back down and try to forget it? or do we ask for help?

Message edited by author 2008-12-16 01:46:58.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D