Blasphemy - DPChallenge Forums

12/08/2008 02:24:36 PM · #101

Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by Mousie:
Atheists have a belief system... but atheism is not it. Physicists have a belief system... but physics is not it. In other words... as a child I never went to church. But I didn't NOT go to church to prove a point. It was simply... off the table. A non-issue.

Actually, according to what I understand Jac and Louis to be saying, no, atheists do NOT have a belief system.

They said atheism is not a belief system, not that they don't have one. It's just not based upon the supposed wishes of an invisible supernatural being.

12/08/2008 03:32:54 PM · #102

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Atheists have a belief system... but atheism is not it. Physicists have a belief system... but physics is not it. In other words... as a child I never went to church. But I didn't NOT go to church to prove a point. It was simply... off the table. A non-issue.

Actually, according to what I understand Jac and Louis to be saying, no, atheists do NOT have a belief system.

They said atheism is not a belief system, not that they don't have one. It's just not based upon the supposed wishes of an invisible supernatural being.

And it depends on what you're talking about too. As far as God goes, I have no belief system in the same way that I have no belief system as far as Santa goes. Also, I'm not sure I "believe" anything about the structure of the universe, because I'm satisfied with scientific explanations based on empirical data. The universe appears to be infinitely big, light travels at c, etc. Is it necessary to "believe" empirical data? And aren't there brute facts in the universe which we simply accept, such as mathematical equations, or the existence of matter?

I no more "believe" in atheism than I believe in Martians. Some people may be satisfied that this is all mere semantics, but it's very important to make the sound distinction that a lack of belief in something is not precisely the same thing as a belief in its opposite. I'm actually a little surprised that this is not acceptable to some people, and have to wonder why that is.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

12/08/2008 03:45:56 PM · #103

Originally posted by Louis:

I no more "believe" in atheism than I believe in Martians. Some people may be satisfied that this is all mere semantics, but it's very important to make the sound distinction that a lack of belief in something is not precisely the same thing as a belief in its opposite. I'm actually a little surprised that this is not acceptable to some people, and have to wonder why that is.

Some people just feel that everyone must believe in SOMETHING (in a supernatural, spiritual sense), and cannot grasp any alternative. The idea is that it's better to believe in Allah or Zeus than no god at all (even though the net effect should be the same as far as each jealous god is concerned). It's interesting to note that a person living before the Torah was written would HAVE to dismiss every single accepted god and religion of his time as mythical in order to be "correct" according to modern religious tenets.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

12/08/2008 04:46:49 PM · #104

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by karmat:
I look at a belief system like this -- It is a system or actual set of precepts or ideas from which you live your daily life, and which help to form the basis of your opinions, thoughts, and in some instances, actions.

This hits the nail on the head. Atheism is a belief system. Period. It is the belief there is no God. Substitute the word "Materialism" if you'd like. Does the atheist have access to all information needed to make a 100% accurate decision? No. Does the atheists live his/her life based on the assumption he/she made about the existence of God? Yes.

Belief system.

Anything else is semantics.

-ism in the dictionary: 3c. Doctrine; theory; system of principles: pacifism. People are free to show me which other -ism definition they prefer and think fits for atheism.

Like bald is a hair color?

12/08/2008 04:50:46 PM · #105

If asked the question, "What do you think about God?" someone with no belief system would remain silent. They have no answer. Someone who answers, "I feel there is no God" (for whatever reason) has an answer. They have a framework through which they answer the question. I do get quite a kick that this brings such vehement protest. What does it matter?

Can't people see that if they've put 5-6 posts into this thread about this question they have a framework by which they view this issue? Is that bad? We're not tricking you. If you somehow let the word "believe" slip, we aren't going to jump on you and laugh at you and call you names. Call it what it is. You BELIEVE there is no God. I'm fine with that. Some people who BELIEVE there is no God are low-key about it. They go about their business rarely talking about it. Other people who BELIEVE there is no God are quite open and outspoken. Funnily, that's the same as any other system of belief. There are those annoying Christians who roam Rant and always like to argue their position (guilty as charged) and then there are those Christians that are happy to never say a word.

My OP happened to be about outspoken atheists. My point was they are apparently just as annoying as outspoken theists (and by the way I WOULD call theism a belief system. It's a very general one, but a system nonetheless).

12/08/2008 05:06:19 PM · #106

If atheism is a system of belief, what's it a belief of? Your answer is: "You believe there is no God." You're right; this is a trick of semantics. Here's the accurate way to answer: "Atheism is not a belief, because it is a lack of belief." I would ask you the same question: what does it matter? If you're suggesting that it's silly to put effort into defending this "non" definition, I would counter that it's even sillier to insist that not believing in something is actually believing in something. No, atheism is not a "system of belief". What's the system? What's the belief?

12/08/2008 05:13:38 PM · #107

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

If asked the question, "What do you think about God?" someone with no belief system would remain silent. They have no answer.

Why? If you ask me what I think about Zeus or gremlins, I'd have an answer and no belief system is required. If I ask you what happens when you drop an apple, would you rely on your "belief system" of Christianity to provide the answer or would you say it falls due to gravity? Gravity is not a belief system. You might say you "believe" it will fall, but that's not at all the same sort of belief as someone who thinks it will someday sprout wings and fly to the moon. The former is not a belief in the faith sense, but a product of knowledge gleaned through simple observation, experience and physics. The latter is faith, resting on nothing more than claims that cannot be disproven. Neither is a system.

Put another way, I don't really know you, but knowing you is not a "system of knowledge." I don't think UFOs visit earth from other worlds, but that's not a "system of thinking." I do not accept Zimbabwean currency as payment, but refusing to accept it is not itself "a system of currency."

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 17:25:22.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

12/08/2008 05:19:10 PM · #108

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Well - look at it this way. If there weren't so many people expressing such a strong belief in something and trying to shape the world for themselves and everyone else based on those beliefs, then you wouldn't have to express an anti-belief about it.

Just like you don't have a belief system based on a hypothetical teapot flying around the moon. Or a belief system based on the flying spaghetti monster - least most people don't. Because most people on the planet have never heard of Russell's teapot or pastafarianism, so they don't have a belief system based on their non-belief of them, either.

Or do you not believe in the teapot, in the same way as you believe in God ? Are those two beliefs that you have equivalent?

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 17:20:33.

12/08/2008 05:22:04 PM · #109

Originally posted by Louis:

The system and belief is there is nothing else except the physical world. This system will extend into many areas of your life. Morality, therefore derives from evolutionary pressure or is created by man in a social setting. That probably shapes your view on ethics. Your view of your life is affected because what you experience is all you think you will. 75 years is all you get. To someone else 75 years is VERY short because it's a blip in their perceived total existence. I can keep going, but I hope I'm making my point. Your belief in nothing outside the physical world likely shapes your life to a huge amount just as my belief in God shapes mine.

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 17:23:05.

12/08/2008 05:26:10 PM · #110

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If asked the question, "What do you think about God?" someone with no belief system would remain silent. They have no answer.

Why? If you ask me what I think about Zeus or gremlins, I'd have an answer and no belief system is required. If I ask you what happens when you drop an apple, would you rely on your "belief system" of Christianity to provide the answer or would you say it falls due to gravity? Gravity is not a belief system. You might say you "believe" it will fall, but that's not at all the same sort of belief as someone who thinks it will someday sprout wings and fly to the moon. The former is not a belief in the faith sense, but a product of knowledge gleaned through simple observation, experience and physics. The latter is faith, resting on nothing more than claims that cannot be disproven. Neither is a system.

Not believing in Zeus or gremlins is part of a belief system. It may seem inconsequential, but that may actually be wrong. Imagine life if you DID believe there were little critters running around who's purpose is to annoy you. I'd think it would be quite different. Now nobody goes around talking about that belief system because virtually the entire world holds it to be true. There's nothing to talk about. BUT watch out if you run into someone who DOES believe in gremlins. You will certainly see their life is run by a different set of rules.

12/08/2008 05:37:00 PM · #111

Originally posted by Gordon:

Or do you not believe in the teapot, in the same way as you believe in God ? Are those two beliefs that you have equivalent?

They are equivalent in a logical sense, but non-equivalent in how they affect my life. The person who believes in a teapot going around the moon is going to be very similar to the person who does not. What does it matter? It's inconsequential. But if we're talking about whether or not something created the universe and whether or not it has an interest in our lives and whether or not we exist after we die, then we are talking about answers that will affect how you live your life.

12/08/2008 05:41:36 PM · #112

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Morality, therefore derives from evolutionary pressure or is created by man in a social setting. That probably shapes your view on ethics.

This is a contradiction. If morality really does stem from evolution /genetics, then THAT'S what shapes your views, not the belief that it does. Moreover, it would result in similar basic ideas of morality (honesty, valuing life, etc.) across cultures and continents... which is exactly what we see. Aside from mental illness, basic values are universal, and generally only overridden under the "justification" of fear, survival, nationalism or religion.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

12/08/2008 05:45:35 PM · #113

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Yet to me, it sounds like you are talking about an inconsequential teapot in both cases. That seems to be the bit that doesn't get grasped when believers claim disbelief is a belief system. There's an asymmetry in the importance, precisely for the reasons you describe - other than I don't want to have laws passed that affect me based on the teapot.

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 17:48:13.

12/08/2008 05:54:18 PM · #114

Originally posted by Gordon:

But yet to others it isn't inconsequential because they think it's important to tell others about their non-belief, ie. the placard. I get it that you don't find God to be of consequence because you don't believe in him, but is this really true? In other words, would your life be lived differently if you believed God did exist? If the answer is no, then perhaps it IS inconsequential. If the answer is yes, then I'd say it is of consequence.

12/08/2008 05:54:41 PM · #115

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Morality, therefore derives from evolutionary pressure or is created by man in a social setting. That probably shapes your view on ethics.

This is a contradiction. If morality really does stem from evolution /genetics, then THAT'S what shapes your views, not the belief that it does. Moreover, it would result in similar basic ideas of morality (honesty, valuing life, etc.) across cultures and continents... which is exactly what we see. Aside from mental illness, basic values are universal, and generally only overridden under the "justification" of fear, survival, nationalism or religion.

Ya, I've been thinking this over and I've got a bone to pick about it. But that's for another day.

12/08/2008 05:55:41 PM · #116

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You're not making any sense. Imagine life if I believed superheroes were real and ready to swoop in and rescue me from impending peril. That doesn't make NOT believing in superheroes a belief system.

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 17:57:37.

12/08/2008 06:17:18 PM · #117

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Not believing in Zeus or gremlins is part of a belief system. It may seem inconsequential, but that may actually be wrong. Imagine life if you DID believe there were little critters running around who's purpose is to annoy you. I'd think it would be quite different.

You're not making any sense. Imagine life if I believed superheroes were real and ready to swoop in and rescue me from impending peril. That doesn't make NOT believing in superheroes a belief system.

My guess Shannon is we merely have a different definition of "belief system". IF you believed in superheroes there may be a situation where decisions you made were based on that belief. You are in a burning building at the top story. Your only escape, by yourself, is to jump and risk death that way. You might rather decide it was worth it to wait it out for the superhero. That piece of information was part of a belief system. A worldview, I saw someone above use and I think would be an equal synonym. It's not a religion (I think we've established this), but part of a system of belief.

How would you characterize a belief system?

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

12/08/2008 06:52:06 PM · #118

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My life would be lived differently if I believed God(s) existed. So the belief in [g|G]od[s] is consequential.

That doesn't however make a disbelief in [g|G]od[s] consequential. One isn't the opposite of the other, in any reasonable way I can see.

I'm sure if you really believed in a teapot around the moon it would have consequences in your life - how did it get there, who put it there, and so on. Yet because you don't believe in it, it doesn't have equivalent and opposite consequences. Just like if you believed in Zeus it would significantly change your life, yet you consider your disbelief I assume to be quite inconsequential in your life.

The unfortunate problem is that your belief in God and many like you, does have consequences in my life. As does the various people who believe in other Gods have consequences.

I think I get it - I know you probably spend quite a lot of your life involved in religious activity and worship. You probably pass a significant amount of time each week involved in some sort of belief based activities. I'm sure quite a lot of thought goes towards it too. So maybe, the idea that others don't spend as much time considering something equivalent is difficult to get. Other than intellectual ramblings in rant, I don't really expend much thought or effort at all in my anti-beliefs. They have little or no consequence or impact on how I live my life. While your beliefs do, both in the small, in terms of how your time is spent and in the large, in terms of what you think you are allowed to do or not.

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 19:01:46.

12/08/2008 07:05:03 PM · #119

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But yet to others it isn't inconsequential because they think it's important to tell others about their non-belief, ie. the placard. I get it that you don't find God to be of consequence because you don't believe in him, but is this really true? In other words, would your life be lived differently if you believed God did exist? If the answer is no, then perhaps it IS inconsequential. If the answer is yes, then I'd say it is of consequence.

My life would be lived differently if I believed God(s) existed. So the belief in [g|G]od[s] is consequential.

That doesn't however make a disbelief in [g|G]od[s] consequential. One isn't the opposite of the other, in any reasonable way I can see.

In a general sense, one is the opposite of the other. Quickly that disappears though because most people don't stop simply on belief or non-belief in a supreme being. The Supreme Being has qualities and characteristics that matter on the belief side. Atheism doesn't have as many "flavors" but it does vary.

I do think we're all just arguing semantics and we should all just see the truths in what the other is saying. It's sort of akin to asking if you believe in the dark. One side says, of course that's a belief in something. Dark is a quality we all know and experience. The other side says, no wait a minute, it's not belief in "dark" but rather a belief in the "lack of light". Dark isn't a physical thing and thus you can't believe in it. (That's a rough analogy.) Anyway, both sides have their points.

When the rubber meets the road, however, my contention is if it is characterized as a "belief system" or not, people live their lives as if it were. Decisions are made directly or indirectly on whether they believe in a supreme being. Conversations are had that reflect this belief and often an attempt is made to change other people's opinion to conform with ours.

12/08/2008 07:21:34 PM · #120

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

When the rubber meets the road, however, my contention is if it is characterized as a "belief system" or not, people live their lives as if it were. Decisions are made directly or indirectly on whether they believe in a supreme being. Conversations are had that reflect this belief and often an attempt is made to change other people's opinion to conform with ours.

Not so sure this is true for most. See Gordon's last paragraph. I for one don't care whether you believe or don't believe so long as it is inward-looking and doesn't jeopardize the rationale of the outside world, and I have no desire for a believer's opinion to conform with mine. Do you feel the same, or no?

12/08/2008 07:29:56 PM · #121

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
When the rubber meets the road, however, my contention is if it is characterized as a "belief system" or not, people live their lives as if it were. Decisions are made directly or indirectly on whether they believe in a supreme being. Conversations are had that reflect this belief and often an attempt is made to change other people's opinion to conform with ours.

Not so sure this is true for most. See Gordon's last paragraph. I for one don't care whether you believe or don't believe so long as it is inward-looking and doesn't jeopardize the rationale of the outside world, and I have no desire for a believer's opinion to conform with mine. Do you feel the same, or no?

heh. For someone with no desire, you show up here a lot. :) I do not share your feeling. I do have a desire for others to conform to my belief because I think it matters for them. Not caring about those people, according to my own belief-system, is utterly wrong. Anyway, I temper that with the knowledge that people are free to make their own decisions and I can respect that.

I still disagree that these decisions don't affect your life. You have shown clearly you value the avoidance of suffering above nearly everything else. Does this to relate to the fact that you believe there is no afterlife? That the life you live now is it? And does that belief trickle down or stem from the disbelief in anything outside the physical world? That line of logic makes sense to me. Physical world only ---> no afterlife ---> suffering is a BIG deal.

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 19:30:26.

FireBird

12/08/2008 07:36:42 PM · #122

Originally posted by Gordon:

Or a belief system based on the flying spaghetti monster -

Be very careful my friend. Even in a thread about blasphemy the noodley tentacles of our dear lord reach across all of time and space.... Even so called atheists worship him in special temples called Italian Restaurants.

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 19:46:06.

12/08/2008 07:47:57 PM · #123

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

heh. For someone with no desire, you show up here a lot. :)

Well, I do enjoy the conversation.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I still disagree that these decisions don't affect your life. You have shown clearly you value the avoidance of suffering above nearly everything else. Does this to relate to the fact that you believe there is no afterlife? That the life you live now is it? And does that belief trickle down or stem from the disbelief in anything outside the physical world? That line of logic makes sense to me. Physical world only ---> no afterlife ---> suffering is a BIG deal.

First of all, I'm not sure I said that not believing in God had no affect on how I view the world. Gordon said it, and I pointed to his paragraph in reference to your hint about "atheist proselytizing", but not believing in God does have an affect on how I view the world, certainly, especially in a world so full of gods that it's about to break apart.

Your observation is a good one and largely correct, that the importance of alleviating suffering comes from the fact that we live exactly one life for a very short period of time. The observation that complete human happiness is within our grasp but for a few accidents of history probably stems from not believing in God. (Incidentally, everyone should be concerned with human suffering, no matter how many lives they believe they'll lead.)

It would be foolish to think that my particular life is not impacted by my non-belief in God, considering my religious history.

None of this makes atheism a system of belief. As I pointed out to Karma, my world view is on display here, but not believing in something doesn't turn that non-belief into a belief. It doesn't even make any sense.

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 19:49:50.