Blasphemy - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

12/08/2008 12:22:04 PM · #76

Originally posted by karmat:

The definition I'm coming from, as defined a few posts up

Originally posted by karmat:
I look at a belief system like this -- It is a system or actual set of precepts or ideas from which you live your daily life, and which help to form the basis of your opinions, thoughts, and in some instances, actions.

I guess the other question I've wondered about is why some atheists so vehemently do not want to say they have a belief system. I'm not trying to argue or stir any pots here, I'm just curious.

I think what the problem is to most is that it's terribly hard for serious believers to comprehend the "It just is" concept.

They feel that in order to be sentient and for life to have meaning, you HAVE to believe in something.

Funny thing is.....that's kind of how my belief system works in relation to my feelings about God. I don't buy most of the ususal song and dance, yet I understand the history, and the basic structure.....I just don't believe that structure. I see too much grief and misery perpetrated in its name and I am too much of a PollyAnna to believe that all that pain could be caused by something good. It just seems so flawed and disjointed that it doesn't make any sense to me.

So I've formulated my own belief system, and part of that is that it would seem to me that based on doing the most good, I cherrry pick the parts that work toward making me the best person that I believe God would have me be.

What I feel the most important part to be is that I respect anyone, and everyone else's right to find their own personal relationship with the God of their understanding, or not, and do my best to treat them as I would be treated without infringing on that right.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

12/08/2008 12:46:54 PM · #77

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by karmat:
I guess the other question I've wondered about is why some atheists so vehemently do not want to say they have a belief system. I'm not trying to argue or stir any pots here, I'm just curious.

You seem to be missing the point. I'm sure Louis, or anyone else, has all sorts of valid belief systems (The Golden Rule, fairness, honesty, compassion and so on), but lack of belief in a particular thing is NOT a belief system. Disbelieving in leprechauns, mermaids, Zeus, Odin, or Allah is not a belief system.

Actually, no, that is EXACTLY my point. Yet, when I say, "You have a belief system," I'm countered with "No, I don't."

I never said anything about "spiritual" belief systems, or supernatural ones, or anything religious. As a matter of fact, the definition above that I offered that I working from, could be used for "religion" but is not inherently so.

I did say that my belief system is based in Christianity, but that is definitely not only basis for a set of beliefs.

If you believe anything, you have a belief system. If you believe that people should flip others of with no provocation whatsoever, and you let guide your actions, that would be a belief system. Nothing "religious" about it.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/08/2008 12:47:44 PM · #78

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I've formulated my own belief system, and part of that is that it would seem to me that based on doing the most good, I cherrry pick the parts that work toward making me the best person that I believe God would have me be.

That's probably true for just about everyone on the planet. Barring mental illness, people have a pretty good sense of right and wrong even before they can read or understand any concept of religion. They will either follow those values directly (without ascribing such values to an invisible third party) or cherry pick / interpret the parts of whatever religious text they've been taught to fit what their concept of god would want... based on those same values.

Where Karma says her belief system is based on Christianity, I think it's very likely the other way around: her interpretation of Christianity is based upon her belief system. Indeed, it MUST work that way if people can dismiss the more "unsavory" instructions of the Bible or take opposing views that each claim is based upon Christianity.

12/08/2008 12:48:50 PM · #79

Originally posted by karmat:

You might be more accurately describing a world view. It encompasses a lot more than a single statement on any particular issue. As Shannon has pointed out, my world view also encompasses things like the application of certain moral behaviours, my political affiliations, my relationship with my spouse and family, the way I see the world through my education, my reaction to popular culture, and so on. However, my lack of belief in God is not by itself any kind of "belief".

The distinction is important because some believers have a tendency to say, "Atheism is a belief system" in a way that attempts to legitimize their own beliefs. A kind of, "My belief is on equal footing with your belief." There are two problems with that: one, belief in the supernatural and acceptance of ideas on faith alone is not on equal footing with objective observations of the universe; and two, if one's belief is on equal footing with my non-belief, then the believer must accept that they are as equally likely to be "wrong" as me -- but many believers are incapable of such an admission, and so that makes their position that my non-belief is a "belief" untenable. Their statement is false before they even utter it.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

12/08/2008 12:48:58 PM · #80

Originally posted by karmat:

I look at a belief system like this -- It is a system or actual set of precepts or ideas from which you live your daily life, and which help to form the basis of your opinions, thoughts, and in some instances, actions.

This hits the nail on the head. Atheism is a belief system. Period. It is the belief there is no God. Substitute the word "Materialism" if you'd like. Does the atheist have access to all information needed to make a 100% accurate decision? No. Does the atheists live his/her life based on the assumption he/she made about the existence of God? Yes.

Belief system.

Anything else is semantics.

-ism in the dictionary: 3c. Doctrine; theory; system of principles: pacifism. People are free to show me which other -ism definition they prefer and think fits for atheism.

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 12:50:03.

12/08/2008 12:52:45 PM · #81

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Atheism is a belief system.

To not believe in something is not to believe in something.

12/08/2008 12:55:13 PM · #82

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Atheism is a belief system.

To not believe in something is not to believe in something.

To start to push ideas onto others, however, does semi-paradoxically turn not believing in something into believing in not believing in something.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

12/08/2008 12:56:19 PM · #83

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Atheism is a belief system.

To not believe in something is not to believe in something.

To start to push ideas onto others, however, does semi-paradoxically turn not believing in something into believing in not believing in something.

It sounds tongue in cheek, but there's an argument in there. So I would ask, Who's pushing?

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

12/08/2008 12:56:27 PM · #84

Look at the pretty circle we just made.

Fine. Atheists don't have a belief system. They just don't believe in God. They may have a world-view, but that is not in any way related to beliefs.

And ya'll think my "faith" is hard to understand? geesh.

continue on.

12/08/2008 12:57:08 PM · #85

Originally posted by karmat:

Well, you asked, and got an honest answer.

PS: I don't think faith of any kind is hard to understand. Quite the opposite.

Message edited by author 2008-12-08 12:57:38.

12/08/2008 12:57:16 PM · #86

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Atheism is a belief system.

To not believe in something is not to believe in something.

To start to push ideas onto others, however, does semi-paradoxically turn not believing in something into believing in not believing in something.

It sounds tongue in cheek, but there's an argument in there. So I would ask, Who's pushing?

The original reason for the thread, that placard.

12/08/2008 12:58:38 PM · #87

Actually, the thread is about blasphemy; the placard was brought up later. Anyway I've already made my view on this known.

12/08/2008 01:01:46 PM · #88

Originally posted by Louis:

Actually, the thread is about blasphemy; the placard was brought up later. Anyway I've already made my view on this known.

Oh, heck. haha. Goes to show how bad a hijack can get eh?

Ok, the original reason for my beginning to argue. lol.

I put forth this: If you don't see that the placard is being pushy, it's because it contains a message you agree with, and have a hard time objectifying your agreement with the message to the true intent of it, which is to try and get people to agree with it, or change their thoughts and beliefs in order to agree with it. Yes, you don't have to read it, but it is there, and it has an agenda.

12/08/2008 01:10:54 PM · #89

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Okay.....so what do you call the people who do NOT state that they believe there is no God....they just don't believe?

There are definitely people who believe there is no God....they would be atheists.

Would the people who just don't believe in a God, but don't really get adamant about it just be agnostic? Apathetic? Just don't think about it?

Do we have to have categories????.....8>)

I think there are probably a whole lot of people who just don't believe in God, and don't spend a bunch of time thinking about it.

12/08/2008 01:13:35 PM · #90

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

I put forth this: If you don't see that the placard is being pushy, it's because it contains a message you agree with, and have a hard time objectifying your agreement with the message to the true intent of it, which is to try and get people to agree with it, or change their thoughts and beliefs in order to agree with it. Yes, you don't have to read it, but it is there, and it has an agenda.

The same holds true with Doc's feeling that the Nativity scene is benevolent and innocuous.

All or none.....no placard, no Nativity; if you want to be fair.

12/08/2008 01:15:14 PM · #91

Originally posted by karmat:

I think a true atheist *believes* there is *NO* God.

That'd be a belief.......I think there are probably more of the people that just don't believe in what's put forth.

12/08/2008 01:18:37 PM · #92

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I put forth this: If you don't see that the placard is being pushy, it's because it contains a message you agree with, and have a hard time objectifying your agreement with the message to the true intent of it, which is to try and get people to agree with it, or change their thoughts and beliefs in order to agree with it. Yes, you don't have to read it, but it is there, and it has an agenda.

The same holds true with Doc's feeling that the Nativity scene is benevolent and innocuous.

All or none.....no placard, no Nativity; if you want to be fair.

I've never argued against that, really, just that the message of the nativity is simply not as openly agenda-filled as the message of the placard. Personally, I'd love to see that lawn filled with symbolistic messages from every culture to the point that it's just ridiculous :)

12/08/2008 01:19:30 PM · #93

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

I agree with that to some extent. It's very difficult to dissociate one's views from observations made. But I'm not sure it's universally true that if someone doesn't find the placard dogmatic, they must themselves be dogmatic about its message, which seems to be what you're suggesting. If you really want to keep talking about the placard, we can break it down into its component parts and analyze exactly what it says in an attempt to reveal its true purpose, but that might be a bit boring for some.

12/08/2008 01:20:28 PM · #94

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I put forth this: If you don't see that the placard is being pushy, it's because it contains a message you agree with, and have a hard time objectifying your agreement with the message to the true intent of it...

I agree with that to some extent. It's very difficult to dissociate one's views from observations made. But I'm not sure it's universally true that if someone doesn't find the placard dogmatic, they must themselves be dogmatic about its message, which seems to be what you're suggesting. If you really want to keep talking about the placard, we can break it down into its component parts and analyze exactly what it says in an attempt to reveal its true purpose, but that might be a bit boring for some.

Not really. I'm pretty much just going on pure caffeine now. This is the trouble I get into when I get laid off through the winter.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/08/2008 01:21:25 PM · #95

Originally posted by karmat:

If you believe anything, you have a belief system.

Not really. If you believe anything, then you believe it. Period. I believe that if I wade a cross a river chock full of hippos and crocs, I might not make it to the other side. Is that a system? Nope, it's just a belief... my interpretation of the likely result based upon experience and reason. I believe it's a good idea to treat others fairly. Is that a system, or a similar projection, weighing the likely result of being nice against that of being a jerk? It's not necessary for me to please the imagined will of a magical, invisible person to determine which choice is likely to work out favorably. We weigh a whole pile of variables when we make any decision, but that's not really a "belief system" IMO any more than a chess player's move is a belief system. In anything, we just do what we think will yield the best outcome. The only difference is who gets the credit for YOUR decision.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

12/08/2008 01:32:09 PM · #96

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Atheism is a belief system. Period. It is the belief there is no God.

You very likely do not believe in Zeus, Odin, Horus, or 10,000 other mythical beings that were once the equal of your present deity in every way. For every one of those, YOU are an atheist, and we only differ on one. Do you believe you don't believe in those other gods (or smurfs, unicorns, flying reindeer or fire breathing dragons)? That's not a system.

JMart

Nikon D80

12/08/2008 01:33:45 PM · #97

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Atheism is a belief system.

To not believe in something is not to believe in something.

There are a couple of confusing things about the question of atheism as a "belief system" or a "religion"...

First, atheism, while it defines a stance with regard to theism, it is certainly not a religion. Look up the word religion and you'll invariably find that religions involve the affirmative belief in the supernatural, in god(s), and some include references to organizations like churches, synagogues, etc. Atheism is not a religion by any standard definition of religion. I know someone will probably take a cheap shot to say that atheists don't deserve protection under the establishment/free exercise clauses of the 1st amendment, but that would be mistaken since the freedom of religion includes a freedom from religion. If that doesn't make sense to you then just try arguing that the freedom of speech only applies to those who are speaking are that it doesn't apply to those who wish to remain silent ("NO! You must talk! You don't have freedom from speech...).

Next ask yourself this: Is theism a "system of beliefs"? I'd say that theism is not a system of beliefs but that theists have individual beliefs and some of them belong to organized religions which do in fact outline a system of beliefs. Likewise, there is no atheist system that outlines "atheist beliefs". In fact, trying to get atheists to agree on what they affirmatively believe has been notoriously compared to "herding cats". Sure, we atheists tend to agree on the most obvious factual "beliefs" like "Canada is to the north of the US", but even then you'll get some yahoo from Detroit pointing out that he drives south to Canada. We atheists truly go on divergent paths. Some may be Humanists and some Unitarians and some don't care for any particular label. Humanism and Unitarianism, those are certainly systems of belief, but they go way beyond atheism.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/08/2008 01:48:31 PM · #98

My belief system is the one given to me by my parents and culture.

It had NOTHING to do with the existence or non-existence of any gods. It was all "lead by example". The Golden Rule. Fairness. Practicality. Pragmatism. Frugality. This has been repeatedly touched on by other people already... yet the religious still want to inject god into my beliefs, by his absence.

How very kind of you!

Atheists have a belief system... but atheism is not it. Physicists have a belief system... but physics is not it. In other words... as a child I never went to church. But I didn't NOT go to church to prove a point. It was simply... off the table. A non-issue.

So how do we always wind up at the point where all the atheists are going "atheism is not a belief system!" and the religious folk are going "yes it is!" time after time? My guess is that there's a fundimental lack of respect for atheists' opinions, frankly.

P.S. I'm actually an agnostic. Mainly because I hold open the possibility that we live under the thumb of a very cruel and secretive god, just like I could be a brain in a jar, or a simulation running on a computer somewhere. I CAN'T know the underlying truth. They are all just as valid to me, once you get to that point. But that doesn't mean my "belief system" is one of "not believing I'm a brain in a jar". I believe I'm not a lot of stuff. What that has to do with my belief system... beats me.