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12/08/2008 12:16:04 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I still don't believe that if you say "You're wrong!" to someone without any concrete evidence behind it that it is much different than people that take it many steps further. I doubt christianity had too many murderers and terrorists in the beginning either. The scary thing is, once a belief system starts down a fundamentalist path, bad things begin to happen. |
Atheism is not a belief system. That's the mistake believers (and agnostics) constantly make. There are dogmatic atheists to be sure, those who insist on the factualness of their position to the exclusion of every other possibility, but those people are very rare, and they do not include rationalists like Richard Dawkins or even Christopher Hitchens. Rational scientific people understand that no position that is not an expression of a brute fact can be absolutely proven beyond question. It's the preponderance of evidence, or its lack, that gives people the confidence to argue their positions as though they were facts. That's not dogmatism. It's short-hand for saying, "I know I can't possibly be 100% certain on the following point because I'm rational about it, but the preponderance of the evidence leaves almost no doubt in my mind to the point that I've accepted that it's virtually incontrovertible that" [make main point here].
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12/08/2008 12:24:11 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I still don't believe that if you say "You're wrong!" to someone without any concrete evidence behind it that it is much different than people that take it many steps further. I doubt christianity had too many murderers and terrorists in the beginning either. The scary thing is, once a belief system starts down a fundamentalist path, bad things begin to happen.
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So, are you suggesting that all negative statements are fundamentalist? As I was saying before, you CAN NOT prove concretely that there is no invisible purple elephant that appears in your closet when no one is looking. You might be tempted to say that claim is wrong, but doing so, by your definition above, would make you as bad as fundamentalist terrorists. |
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12/08/2008 12:26:49 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I still don't believe that if you say "You're wrong!" to someone without any concrete evidence behind it that it is much different than people that take it many steps further. I doubt christianity had too many murderers and terrorists in the beginning either. The scary thing is, once a belief system starts down a fundamentalist path, bad things begin to happen. |
Atheism is not a belief system. That's the mistake believers (and agnostics) constantly make. There are dogmatic atheists to be sure, those who insist on the factualness of their position to the exclusion of every other possibility, but those people are very rare, and they do not include rationalists like Richard Dawkins or even Christopher Hitchens. Rational scientific people understand that no position that is not an expression of a brute fact can be absolutely proven beyond question. It's the preponderance of evidence, or its lack, that gives people the confidence to argue their positions as though they were facts. That's not dogmatism. It's short-hand for saying, "I know I can't possibly be 100% certain on the following point because I'm rational about it, but the preponderance of the evidence leaves almost no doubt in my mind to the point that I've accepted that it's virtually incontrovertible that" [make main point here]. |
We'll just have to disagree here, because I do find it dogmatic. It states something in no uncertain terms, and words it no differently than any religious dogma would be worded. IMO.
I'm also kind of arguing here from the trenches of the side of the government, and not on a deeply personal level. |
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12/08/2008 12:27:20 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I still don't believe that if you say "You're wrong!" to someone without any concrete evidence behind it that it is much different than people that take it many steps further. I doubt christianity had too many murderers and terrorists in the beginning either. The scary thing is, once a belief system starts down a fundamentalist path, bad things begin to happen.
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So, are you suggesting that all negative statements are fundamentalist? As I was saying before, you CAN NOT prove concretely that there is no invisible purple elephant that appears in your closet when no one is looking. You might be tempted to say that claim is wrong, but doing so, by your definition above, would make you as bad as fundamentalist terrorists. |
I'm just going to place a big ol' "huh?" here and leave it at that. |
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12/08/2008 12:36:57 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Peace on Earth! Good will toward man! Can't you dig a little of that? |
Took this two Sunday evenings ago as we rolled into Portland ... :-)
BTW: I hope on the original placard they spelled Solstice correctly ... :-(
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 00:37:59. |
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12/08/2008 12:38:11 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I still don't believe that if you say "You're wrong!" to someone without any concrete evidence behind it that it is much different than people that take it many steps further. I doubt christianity had too many murderers and terrorists in the beginning either. The scary thing is, once a belief system starts down a fundamentalist path, bad things begin to happen.
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So, are you suggesting that all negative statements are fundamentalist? As I was saying before, you CAN NOT prove concretely that there is no invisible purple elephant that appears in your closet when no one is looking. You might be tempted to say that claim is wrong, but doing so, by your definition above, would make you as bad as fundamentalist terrorists. |
I like the purple elephant example, but the other good from that little Oxford book on atheism is my favourite: Prove that the Pope is not a robot. |
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12/08/2008 12:44:51 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I like the purple elephant example, but the other good from that little Oxford book on atheism is my favourite: Prove that the Pope is not a robot. |
I'm not sure the purple elephant is all that great an example, since
1) it can't be both invisible and purple (they are mutually exclusive conditions/definitions) and
2) you could probably detect its presence with a sufficiently-sensitive mass-detector, and maybe even with radar or ultrasound ... if it's massless it's not an "elephant" ... |
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12/08/2008 12:52:56 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Atheism is not a belief system. |
So why should it then get "a seat at the table"? Atheists like to claim it isn't a belief system because they feel it lets them get away with lots of stuff by not labeling it as such. I think it's a creed just like any other. (And I know Shannon already disagrees with that.) |
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12/08/2008 12:54:28 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I still don't believe that if you say "You're wrong!" to someone without any concrete evidence behind it that it is much different than people that take it many steps further. I doubt christianity had too many murderers and terrorists in the beginning either. The scary thing is, once a belief system starts down a fundamentalist path, bad things begin to happen.
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So, are you suggesting that all negative statements are fundamentalist? As I was saying before, you CAN NOT prove concretely that there is no invisible purple elephant that appears in your closet when no one is looking. You might be tempted to say that claim is wrong, but doing so, by your definition above, would make you as bad as fundamentalist terrorists. |
I'm just going to place a big ol' "huh?" here and leave it at that. |
Atheists have ample evidence to say religious beliefs are wrong. I don't know what constitutes "concrete evidence" to you but, as Louis pointed out, it's impossible to prove 100% that religions are wrong, so if by concrete you mean 100% certainty, then your comments above are calling most atheists "fundamentalists" and implying a slippery slope to terrorism for us. That's really offensive. If that's not what you meant then I suggest you start writing with a little more care and accuracy with the language before throwing around labels like "murderers and terrorists". I sincerely hope you were just being unclear about those things.
Now, I'm going to bed so you all can have the last word(s). Good night and don't let the purple elephants bite. |
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12/08/2008 12:56:09 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Louis:
I like the purple elephant example, but the other good from that little Oxford book on atheism is my favourite: Prove that the Pope is not a robot. |
I'm not sure the purple elephant is all that great an example, since
1) it can't be both invisible and purple (they are mutually exclusive conditions/definitions) and
2) you could probably detect its presence with a sufficiently-sensitive mass-detector, and maybe even with radar or ultrasound ... if it's massless it's not an "elephant" ... |
It only appears (purple) when no one is looking and is otherwise invisible and there are other rules I will keep adding as people object to its existence :P
eta: the mass is in another dimension
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 00:58:12. |
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12/08/2008 12:58:53 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by JMart:
It only appears (purple) when no one is looking and is otherwise invisible and there are other rules I will keep adding as people object to its existence :P |
Yeah, that would about cover it. |
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12/08/2008 02:46:51 AM · #62 |
OK, not one to usually apologise for what I say this time I feel I have offended people outside of DPChallenge and whilst I am neither here nor there about religion (I dont actively dislike it but I doubt you'd ever see me sharing a hymn book with Cliff Richard anytime soon). So if my comment did offend anyone I would just like to say sorry to those I did shock/upset/annoy/invoke wrath* and I wont do it again.. promise.. swear on the bible.
and no, SC haven`t been leaning on me to say sorry.
Although there is a bald headed chap outside my house with a burning torch and pitchfork.
*delete as appropriate |
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12/08/2008 03:31:10 AM · #63 |
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12/08/2008 10:30:33 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Louis:
Atheism is not a belief system. |
So why should it then get "a seat at the table"? Atheists like to claim it isn't a belief system because they feel it lets them get away with lots of stuff by not labeling it as such. I think it's a creed just like any other. (And I know Shannon already disagrees with that.) |
I promised not to reply to religious threads but when I see comments like this, I have to.
No it isn't a belief system, that's what you religious people want to think but you're wrong, very wrong. I find your comment insulting Doc. I'm not speaking for anyone else but myself here but don't try to bundle me up in your comfy 'is' or 'is not' world. I don't believe in gods because I just don't. Period. Do you believe you can jump 40 stories and survive? No, it's the same thing. You won't jump off that building because you know it'll kill you. I don't believe in your made up god stories because I know they're not real or true and I see the nonsense of it all. (shoot me)
Go ahead and call me what you want. Ask me to prove my beliefs. I can't and will not break my balls to do so, it's up to you to find the answers, not I. You're the one asking questions Doc. I'm at peace with my thoughts and have no problem with them whatsoever, I have absolutely no doubt in what I believe and I ask of no one to believe what I do.
Atheism is not a religion and please don't try to categorize it as such, although inevitably it will be considered as one as more and more people realize what religion is and think of themselves as non-believers. Religious folk will make it that way. (shoot me)
You're a non-believer Doc but are still on the fence, but I still am not sure though, from your posts, some seem to reflect your religious beliefs and some seem to lean the other way but I think your problem is that you want to treat atheism as if it were a religion. You want to wear it on your sleeve like many Christians do their beliefs, atheism can't be treated like that because it isn't tied down with rules, it's common sense. (shoot me)
Is red blue? No, but you don't need an explanation to understand that, right? Same goes for my lack of beliefs. I don't need to be told that a god doesn't exist by Chomsky, Harris, Dawkins or any others, I've been one ever since the age of twelve. To me it is common sense. (shoot me)
(shoot me) means that I'm saying something I wouldn't normally say in a religious thread but in this one I removed my gloves and said it without apprehension whatsoever. ;] In other words, I'm not looking to hurt anyone here or say that I am right and you're all wrong. (I know it looks that way sometimes when talking about personal belief systems)
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 10:33:17. |
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12/08/2008 10:36:28 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Louis:
Atheism is not a belief system. |
So why should it then get "a seat at the table"? Atheists like to claim it isn't a belief system because they feel it lets them get away with lots of stuff by not labeling it as such. I think it's a creed just like any other. (And I know Shannon already disagrees with that.) |
I promised not to reply to religious threads but when I see comments like this, I have to.
No it isn't a belief system, that's what you religious people want to think but you're wrong, very wrong. I find your comment insulting Doc. I'm not speaking for anyone else but myself here but don't try to bundle me up in your comfy 'is' or 'is not' world. I don't believe in gods because I just don't. Period. Do you believe you can jump 40 stories and survive? No, it's the same thing. You won't jump off that building because you know it'll kill you. I don't believe in your made up god stories because I know they're not real or true and I see the nonsense of it all. (shoot me)
Go ahead and call me what you want. Ask me to prove my beliefs. I can't and will not break my balls to do so, it's up to you to find the answers, not I. You're the one asking questions Doc. I'm at peace with my thoughts and have no problem with them whatsoever, I have absolutely no doubt in what I believe and I ask of no one to believe what I do.
Atheism is not a religion and please don't try to categorize it as such, although inevitably it will be considered as one as more and more people realize what religion is and think of themselves as non-believers. Religious folk will make it that way. (shoot me)
You're a non-believer Doc but are still on the fence, but I still am not sure though, from your posts, some seem to reflect your religious beliefs and some seem to lean the other way but I think your problem is that you want to treat atheism as if it were a religion. You want to wear it on your sleeve like many Christians do their beliefs, atheism can't be treated like that because it isn't tied down with rules, it's common sense. (shoot me)
Is red blue? No, but you don't need an explanation to understand that, right? Same goes for my lack of beliefs. I don't need to be told that a god doesn't exist by Chomsky, Harris, Dawkins or any others, I've been one ever since the age of twelve. To me it is common sense. (shoot me)
(shoot me) means that I'm saying something I wouldn't normally say in a religious thread but in this one I removed my gloves and said it without apprehension whatsoever. ;] In other words, I'm not looking to hurt anyone here or say that I am right and you're all wrong. (I know it looks that way sometimes when talking about personal belief systems) |
Okay, I know this has been hashed out, but please, explain to me again how atheism is not a "belief system," yet in telling us what you think, you keep saying "I believe."
I'll concede that atheism is not a "religion," for the purposes of this discussion, but how can it NOT be a belief system? |
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12/08/2008 10:52:54 AM · #66 |
I believe I have the right to say that atheism is not a belief system. Am I saying that atheism is a belief system with that sentence?
Like I said to Doc, it's up to you to find the answers to your questions, it's not for me or any other atheist to supply them. Atheists are not any smarter than you or Doc or anyone else. It's people like yourselves that want to categorize us into a group by labeling us this or that. I just don't believe, Karmat. Why is that so difficult for the religiously inclined to comprehend? I feel no need to find answers to my existence, where a religious person seems to want to grasp the idea they were made for a specific reason and have a god given right to be alive. I don't believe that but it isn't an atheist thing, it's my own personal common sense telling me all this and that's why I may not be able to give you that one answer that will make it all seem so clear in regards to atheism.
I don't even capitalize the word because I don't want to give it any more significance than it deserves. ;}
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 10:54:14. |
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12/08/2008 10:59:05 AM · #67 |
whatever. i was just wondering why you (and others who are agnostic or atheists) say it is not a belief system.
I look at a belief system like this -- It is a system or actual set of precepts or ideas from which you live your daily life, and which help to form the basis of your opinions, thoughts, and in some instances, actions.
How is what you are saying NOT part of that?
You can say whatever floats your boat. I can say I am a 5'10" supermodel, but that doesn't make it necessarily so, and if I continue to purport that, my credibility in discussions about modeling is going to be severely limited.
For me, my belief system is based on Christianity.
For you, your belief system is one of anti-belief, but it is still a belief system.
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 11:01:16. |
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12/08/2008 11:16:02 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nathanael_G:
I can image people going in to churches and saying horrible things... |
You can imagine all sorts of things, but has it ever actually happened? |
Do we have to wait for it to happen before we make a law against it? |
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12/08/2008 11:28:38 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by Nathanael:
...Do we have to wait for it to happen before we make a law against it? |
The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state. -Tacitus
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 11:29:13. |
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12/08/2008 11:54:18 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by karmat:
whatever. i was just wondering why you (and others who are agnostic or atheists) say it is not a belief system. |
What's it a belief system of? Not believing in anything? Doesn't make sense. Trying to call it a system of belief is an oxymoron. You believe in Jesus, God, Satan, and all kinds of things. I don't believe in any of that, nor do I believe in the countless examples of gods past and present that have been on the scene. How is what I've just expressed a belief, when I "believe" in nothing? Atheism is a rejection of your beliefs, usually based on a profound lack of evidence. It's disingenuous of you to try to turn that around on those who do not believe in anything by claiming that non-belief is somehow some kind of belief in itself. There are chestnuts floating around that seem apropos: is "bald" a hair colour? Is not collecting stamps a hobby? Because you don't believe in the existence of Santa Claus, is that, by itself, a system of belief? |
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12/08/2008 12:05:20 PM · #71 |
The definition I'm coming from, as defined a few posts up
Originally posted by karmat:
I look at a belief system like this -- It is a system or actual set of precepts or ideas from which you live your daily life, and which help to form the basis of your opinions, thoughts, and in some instances, actions. |
I guess the other question I've wondered about is why some atheists so vehemently do not want to say they have a belief system. I'm not trying to argue or stir any pots here, I'm just curious. |
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12/08/2008 12:12:25 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
My biggest point was that given 15 minutes, a napkin, and a pen, I'm sure I could have come up with something for the atheist placard that would actually have people agreeing with them instead of this "in your face" message presented.
You get a bit ahead of yourself sometimes... |
""At this season of the WINTER SOLSTACE may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
Okay.....the sign asks that reason prevail and states that there is no gods, devils, or angels, and that religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds.
Now the first part is obviously up for debate, though they've got a beter case than you because you have to prove they DO exist where they can just state that they don't.
The second part, well......that's pretty much true, isn't it?
You know as well as I how much misery and suffering has been perpetrated in the name of, and by, religion in the last couple thousand years.
So tell me how that's "In your face".
That's your view, but you have to understand how offensive it is to many to see something like the Nativity scene at the Capitol. It's really not right in this day and age of political correctness and fairness. And to sit there and try and claim that it's not making a big statement, we just mean peace on earth is merely obscuring the point. If that's what you want to say, fine, make the sign, and take the manger scene away.
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12/08/2008 12:13:33 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by karmat:
The definition I'm coming from, as defined a few posts up
Originally posted by karmat:
I look at a belief system like this -- It is a system or actual set of precepts or ideas from which you live your daily life, and which help to form the basis of your opinions, thoughts, and in some instances, actions. |
I guess the other question I've wondered about is why some atheists so vehemently do not want to say they have a belief system. I'm not trying to argue or stir any pots here, I'm just curious. |
Because it's as ridiculous as insisting that "bald is a hair color" |
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12/08/2008 12:15:53 PM · #74 |
I don't know that its a matter of being vehement, so much as trying to articulate a point... but not being able to express it in a way that is understood.
My own analogy is similar to being a kid & believing in the easter bunny / tooth fairy / santa, etc. Once we reach a point of no longer believing in a fairy tale or story, we simply do not believe it.
Does NOT believing in the above tales consume a large part of the way one lives? No, because it simply isn't relevant to daily life. (Where a religious person's beliefs DO play a major role.) Hence, the reason many don't find atheism / agnosticism to be a system of belief.
Hope that helps.
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12/08/2008 12:20:32 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I guess the other question I've wondered about is why some atheists so vehemently do not want to say they have a belief system. I'm not trying to argue or stir any pots here, I'm just curious. |
You seem to be missing the point. I'm sure Louis, or anyone else, has all sorts of valid belief systems (The Golden Rule, fairness, honesty, compassion and so on), but lack of belief in a particular thing is NOT a belief system. Disbelieving in leprechauns, mermaids, Zeus, Odin, or Allah is not a belief system. |
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