What have we done to our children?

12/05/2008 04:04:19 PM · #1

Per Robert's suggestion in this thread, I'm starting a new one asking this volatile question. :-) Mainly, this is about the dilution of culture in the last 100 years or so, that would allow a kid on YouTube to declare vacuously that his new cell phone, or other shiny new gadget, is "epic", outraging the sensibilities of word conscious people like myself. Relevant posts copied from other thread to follow. Feel free to discuss other outrages perpetrated on kids in the name of not "leaving anyone behind", saturating them with pop culture, and so forth.

12/05/2008 04:05:05 PM · #2

Originally posted by Louis:

I am mortified every time I hear a kid describe his new cell phone/laptop/ as "epic". Truly, truly dismaying. I was just bitching about this to (the ever patient) Alex the other day, bemoaning this kind of usage, punctuating my sadness at the end, Jeff-Goldblum-in-Invasion-of-the-Body-Snatchers style, with words like, "Where's Homer?! Where's Virgil?! What have we done to these kids?!"

12/05/2008 04:05:44 PM · #3

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by Louis:
I am mortified every time I hear a kid describe his new cell phone/laptop/ as "epic". Truly, truly dismaying. I was just bitching about this to (the ever patient) Alex the other day, bemoaning this kind of usage, punctuating my sadness at the end, Jeff-Goldblum-in-Invasion-of-the-Body-Snatchers style, with words like, "Where's Homer?! Where's Virgil?! What have we done to these kids?!"

Try hanging out on gaming forums.

One day, a new trailer for a new Sonic the Hedgehog game came out. The headline? "Sonic returns in new Epic Trailer!"

Had I the ability to find, go to, and meet the person that wrote that headline, I would have tied him/her to a school desk and forced them to copy dictionary pages until their hands bled.

12/05/2008 04:06:21 PM · #4

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Louis:
I am mortified every time I hear a kid describe his new cell phone/laptop/ as "epic". Truly, truly dismaying. I was just bitching about this to (the ever patient) Alex the other day, bemoaning this kind of usage, punctuating my sadness at the end, Jeff-Goldblum-in-Invasion-of-the-Body-Snatchers style, with words like, "Where's Homer?! Where's Virgil?! What have we done to these kids?!"

I can answer that question: as a society we have become more and more self-centered and self-indulgent, lowering our own personal standards so low that it is actually reasonable to say we have become less civilized than we were, say, 100 years ago. I place the responsibility squarely in our perversion of "democracy" into the concept of lowering standards to the least common denominator, so nobody will be left behind. We have robbed our children of their potential by lowering our expectations of them. We are in a sad state...

R.

12/05/2008 04:06:38 PM · #5

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

12/05/2008 04:06:59 PM · #6

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Louis:
I am mortified every time I hear a kid describe his new cell phone/laptop/ as "epic". Truly, truly dismaying. I was just bitching about this to (the ever patient) Alex the other day, bemoaning this kind of usage, punctuating my sadness at the end, Jeff-Goldblum-in-Invasion-of-the-Body-Snatchers style, with words like, "Where's Homer?! Where's Virgil?! What have we done to these kids?!"

I can answer that question: as a society we have become more and more self-centered and self-indulgent, lowering our own personal standards so low that it is actually reasonable to say we have become less civilized than we were, say, 100 years ago. I place the responsibility squarely in our perversion of "democracy" into the concept of lowering standards to the least common denominator, so nobody will be left behind. We have robbed our children of their potential by lowering our expectations of them. We are in a sad state...

Holy crap, and here I was too afraid to actually say something like that. That's pretty spot-on.

There's another issue. With the lowering of our collective intelligence comes the dilution of civility (including civil discourse). Yesterday, I was listening to an ancient CBC correspondent in Ottawa who was fairly aghast at the way Parliament is being conducted these days. Twenty-five years ago, during Question Period, bitter political enemies still called each other "Men of the Commons" in an honourable recognition of their public service. (It was mostly men in those days, and such terminology did not carry the gender-divisive connotations it does now.) Now, it's commonplace to hear Members yell insults across the aisle. In the last session, some Members openly called another a "seditious traitor", publicly calling his patriotism into question in the meanest way. A sad day, and apparently the lesson our leaders don't mind sending to the kids watching.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

12/05/2008 04:07:14 PM · #7

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Louis:
In the last session, some Members openly called another a "seditious traitor", publicly calling his patriotism into question in the meanest way. A sad day, and apparently the lesson our leaders don't mind sending to the kids watching.

... I do earnestly believe that you would be very hard pressed to find very many kids crammed around a television, mesmerized by the House of Commons debates. :O)

Ray

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

12/05/2008 04:11:31 PM · #8

Have you seen the movie "Idiocracy"?

yeah it's funny, but it's sad that you can see many things in that movie actually happening today. The movie is almost epic :)

12/05/2008 04:13:26 PM · #9

Actually, I really want to see that. It wasn't in wide release I understand. I'll look for it.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

12/05/2008 04:14:02 PM · #10

from previous thread:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I place the responsibility squarely in our perversion of "democracy" into the concept of lowering standards to the least common denominator, so nobody will be left behind.

Really.....

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
We have robbed our children of their potential by lowering our expectations of them. We are in a sad state...

That's a tough one when you're trying to raise a child.

I don't want to put the unholy, crushing sense of obligation to merely obtain the status quo by excelling on my kid the same way it was inflicted on me, but I do want her to WANT to excel because she sees the value in excellence for itself.

How the f*ck do you teach that?

I mean "we" collectively, Jeb. When we expect so little of ourselves, when our society has become culturally and historically illiterate, when we place a higher value on possessions than on knowledge (etc etc) then how can we expect our children to do better? You say you want your daughter to want to excel because she sees the value of that in itself, and this is exactly, precisely what we as a society should be trying to do.

The pursuit of excellence as a goal in itself, not the dumbing-down of society to the least common denominator.

R.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

12/05/2008 04:18:14 PM · #11

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I don't want to put the unholy, crushing sense of obligation to merely obtain the status quo by excelling on my kid the same way it was inflicted on me, but I do want her to WANT to excel because she sees the value in excellence for itself.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I mean "we" collectively, Jeb. When we expect so little of ourselves, when our society has become culturally and historically illiterate, when we place a higher value on possessions than on knowledge (etc etc) then how can we expect our children to do better? You say you want your daughter to want to excel because she sees the value of that in itself, and this is exactly, precisely what we as a society should be trying to do.

The pursuit of excellence as a goal in itself, not the dumbing-down of society to the least common denominator.

But how as a society do we do that when the general attitude is to let people respond to their baser desires just out of sheer laziness.

I know one thing I see is that most people are satisfied with "Good enough".

I always want a little bit more from today than yesterday.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

12/05/2008 04:20:41 PM · #12

from previous thread:

Originally posted by yanko:

Perhaps this is just the natural course of things? Society has become old and senile. Its changes over time just cosmetic, hiding the wrinkles so to speak.

Well, we're talking about *wisdom* here, basically; as long as an individual, or a society, values growth towards wisdom, it is not stagnant. When it stagnates, it dies. In America, at least, we are seeing a regression. The society, as a whole, for all its bells and whistles, is cruder and less world-aware than it once was. In that sense its growth has stopped. Did we reach a peak of wisdom from which downhill was all that remained? I think not; I think, instead, the corrupted idea of democracy under which we live has dumbed us down, and that venal, irresponsible members of the society are preying on our unawarenes and hastening our demise.

R.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

12/05/2008 04:26:50 PM · #13

Originally posted by yanko:

Perhaps this is just the natural course of things? Society has become old and senile. Its changes over time just cosmetic, hiding the wrinkles so to speak.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Is it that broad based, or is it the simple erosion of standards at home?

I see a lot of kids who have no innate sense of true education. From a very early age in my home, we were encouraged to be inquisitive, and to want to learn, to ask more from ourselves. In my case the whole deal was a little over the top, but even with the pressure of unattainable goals, it never diminished my desire to learn and grow.

The lackadaisical attitude I see in youth, that whole just exist for the minute for the visceral pleasure of the moment just seems sad......and I don't think this is a new thing......I saw it in kids of my generation as well.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

12/05/2008 04:53:26 PM · #14

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

from previous thread:

Originally posted by yanko:
Perhaps this is just the natural course of things? Society has become old and senile. Its changes over time just cosmetic, hiding the wrinkles so to speak.

Well, we're talking about *wisdom* here, basically; as long as an individual, or a society, values growth towards wisdom, it is not stagnant. When it stagnates, it dies. In America, at least, we are seeing a regression. The society, as a whole, for all its bells and whistles, is cruder and less world-aware than it once was. In that sense its growth has stopped. Did we reach a peak of wisdom from which downhill was all that remained? I think not; I think, instead, the corrupted idea of democracy under which we live has dumbed us down, and that venal, irresponsible members of the society are preying on our unawarenes and hastening our demise.

R.

But where's the evidence of this regression of wisdom in society? How can we accurately compare past societies with the present one? I think we cloud our views of past societies because we celebrate some of the works and the achievements of the select few who come from those times but is that an accurate way to measure those societies as a whole? How can anybody in good consciousness say a past society was wiser when things like biogotry and violence ran rampant more so than today?

Now, I don't necessarily disagree with your assertions, but I think we need a stronger foundation of evidence to go on besides personal pet peeves and assumptions.

Message edited by author 2008-12-05 16:55:29.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

12/05/2008 04:57:15 PM · #15

Hasn't every generation rebelled in some way against the preceeding one and in turn been aghast at the heathens they, themselves, have raised to take over when they go the way of the dodo?

12/05/2008 04:57:44 PM · #16

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Is it that broad based, or is it the simple erosion of standards at home?

Yes, you're making my point, thanks. It all starts with what we, as individuals, are willing to settle for. When "good enough" is good enough, we're headed downhill.

R.

12/05/2008 05:04:17 PM · #17

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
from previous thread:

Originally posted by yanko:
Perhaps this is just the natural course of things? Society has become old and senile. Its changes over time just cosmetic, hiding the wrinkles so to speak.

Well, we're talking about *wisdom* here, basically; as long as an individual, or a society, values growth towards wisdom, it is not stagnant. When it stagnates, it dies. In America, at least, we are seeing a regression. The society, as a whole, for all its bells and whistles, is cruder and less world-aware than it once was. In that sense its growth has stopped. Did we reach a peak of wisdom from which downhill was all that remained? I think not; I think, instead, the corrupted idea of democracy under which we live has dumbed us down, and that venal, irresponsible members of the society are preying on our unawarenes and hastening our demise.

R.

But where's the evidence of this regression of wisdom in society? How can we accurately compare past societies with the present one? I think we cloud our views of past societies because we celebrate some of the works and the achievements of the select few who come from those times but is that an accurate way to measure those societies as a whole? How can anybody in good consciousness say a past society was wiser when things like biogotry and violence ran rampant more so than today?

Now, I don't necessarily disagree with you on your assertions, but I think we need a stronger foundation of evidence to go on besides personal pet peeves and assumptions.

"Good conscience." :-P

It's a good point you bring up. I don't think it's inaccurate to suggest that we're waxing poetic a bit here, and ruing what we perceive has been done to culture, but here's a bit of an anecdote. One of my hobbies is to clean up the audio of radio programs from the thirties through the fifties and store them in MP3s, categorizing and tagging the files. I've listened to hundreds of hours such programs. Some are game shows, all of which seemed to test the education of the contestant. The intelligence on display is truly remarkable, and there is absolutely no sign of an inward-looking American culture. They appear to be cultivated people with facts at their disposal that would be considered arcane today. There is no evidence of such people in popular culture today, and a worldly education rooted in knowing about the world and where we came from is not only not encouraged, but I'd suggest it's mocked.

It's just an anecdote that doesn't tell the complete picture -- much of the programming from the radio years was horrible dreck, and was the audio version of television's "vast wasteland" -- but when you're confronted with the people of those times in their own words, it's striking how different they seem, how much more cultured and educated. And what seemed valued was much different too.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/05/2008 05:09:24 PM · #18

Originally posted by yanko:

I'm equating "wisdom" with "awareness of the past" for the sake of argument. All you need to do is look at turn-of-the-century curricula to see what I'm talking about. I'm willing to concede, even, that web are *collectively* better educated than we were, say,100 years ago, when countless numbers of children were pushed into manual labor at a young age, but that isn't the point. 10,000 quarter-full bottles in a row may look impressive, but they don't equal 5000 full bottles, in sum.

R.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/05/2008 05:09:36 PM · #19

You guys are getting frighteningly close to sounding like old men shaking their sticks at kids and yelling them to keep off the grass. :)

While I personally hold dear many things about language in general (I'm a programmer generalist who reads books and writes journals, ya know!) and am someone who is driven to apoplexy by things like the use of an apostrophe for pluralization... I also think that language is a living thing that grows and changes as the environment and culture changes.

Epic, awesome, elite, radical, tubular, wicked... why NOT use these words as common superlatives?

Do you worry that 'epic' somehow loses stature because of a 'watering down' of its potency when used in the chatter of gamer kids? Won't another word come along to fill the gap that's supposedly left? The concept that used to back 'epic' hasn't vanished... even if the terms we may use to describe it change.

Anyway, what's so special about the word itself? Epic: a long story. Wow! That's some Earth-shattering depth, there. You're seriously lamenting the loss of a synonym for 'long story'?

I am always amused when I see each generation claim that the new generation is a bunch of carefree, no priorities losers. This has only been happening for... what... milennia? I'm frankly shocked, what with the abject decay of our youth, generation after generation, that we haven't already collapsed into rubble on the garbage heap of history. So says one of those nigh-40 Gen-X 'slackers' we used to hear about so much!

Could it not be your own discomfort at falling behind that is causing your negative reactions? An erosion of standards my ass. Different standards, maybe. The same standards wrapped in new clothes, most likely... IMO.

That said, using an apostrohpe to pluralize... is just stupid and wrong. :)

Mick

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

12/05/2008 05:10:28 PM · #20

Do you mean to say that children are actually misusing English words? Oh my goodness!!! I feel I'm going to feint. Sedrick, do catch me... Ohhh...

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/05/2008 05:11:22 PM · #21

I looked for a while but couldn't find a quote I read where the speaker was lamenting about the new generation and its lack of education, morals, respect for elders etc. The quote fit perfectly with contemporary bitching, the only problem is it was done by someone either in Rome or Greece at some point BC. I think these feeling are natural and do not necessarily reflect an actual degredation. If they did, we must be a world worse than BC Greece since we've had so many generations in between.

At least that's what I tell myself...

citymars

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

12/05/2008 05:11:52 PM · #22

I loaned a young co-worker a pencil recently and he replied "Thanks, you're AWESOME!" "Wow", I thought "If I get an 'awesome' for a pencil, I wonder what I'd get for doing something truly worthy.

Anyway, I think there are different issues here that should be separated. Slang words vary by generation and culture. Today's youth slang is amusing to me because the intentional hyperbole is ironic. An "epic" haircut? It doesn't mean youth is ignorant, it just means they have slang that distinguishes them from adults.

Now, if you want to talk about poor spelling and/or how permissiveness has led to a generation of people who can't chew food with their mouths closed, I'm ready to support you!

EDIT: Dang, Mousie sort of beat me to it.

Message edited by author 2008-12-05 17:13:39.

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

12/05/2008 05:14:02 PM · #23

Originally posted by Louis:

...there is absolutely no sign of an inward-looking American culture. They appear to be cultivated people with facts at their disposal that would be considered arcane today. There is no evidence of such people in popular culture today, and a worldly education rooted in knowing about the world and where we came from is not only not encouraged, but I'd suggest it's mocked.

Exactly how I perceive it; Bush people rule, intellectuals get mocked.

Originally posted by Louis:

It's just an anecdote that doesn't tell the complete picture...but when you're confronted with the people of those times in their own words, it's striking how different they seem, how much more cultured and educated. And what seemed valued was much different too.

I completely agree. And people of my age can offer personal anecdotal evidence as well; to wit, discussions with people of my father's generation were, for me, much more incisive than any discussions I am able to have with people of my children's generation, with rare exceptions.

R.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

12/05/2008 05:18:14 PM · #24

For my part, I just don't feel like there's anything wrong with holding people to a certain standard.

Saying that, I think the best way to combat the use of slang in a younger generation is to take it back and start over-using it yourself, in a way guaranteed to annoy the younger generation. They'll use it a million times just to piss you off if you say to them, "Stop doing that!".

However, if they come to you and say, "I just got this epic email." You can always reply, "rad man, I'm epically happy for you. No go clean that epic mess in your room and bring your dear old dad an epic beer."