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11/28/2008 11:46:57 AM · #1 |
A man threw acid in a woman's face because she refused his wish for marriage and now the Iranian court has decided to blind the man as punishment.
Do you agree or not to this type of vengeful retribution?
An eye for an eye
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11/28/2008 12:18:33 PM · #2 |
| Vile and barbaric. Disgusting. Any justice system that could come up with something like this is surely comprised of the dregs of the humanity. |
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11/28/2008 12:30:41 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Vile and barbaric. Disgusting. Any justice system that could come up with something like this is surely comprised of the dregs of the humanity. |
Well, they have it in the Bible too; "an eye for an eye", formulaic justice. It all stems from the ancient codes of law laid down by Hammurabi, and these came into being, oddly enough, at least partly to counter OVER-reaction by those who had been wronged. I mean, you're better off with your hand cut off than outright killed, right? That was the theory...
Anyway, there are a lot of different legal systems in the world now. Even our Western world operates under two basic codes; ours is derived from English Common Law and goes back to the Magna Carta, and then there's the Napoleonic Code as well. As a gross oversimplification, in the one you're innocent until proven guilty, and in the other you're guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
(Don't jump on me, legal eagles, this is the cartoon version here)
It does not seem to me that it's as obvious as you think it is that "formulaic law" is "barbaric". There's a certain symmetrical logic to the idea that if you deliberately harm another, you deserve to have the same harm visited upon you to balance out the scales. Of course, the same legal system prescribes stoning of adulteresses but lets adulterers off scot-free most of the time, so....
it's just not that cut-and-dried to me.
R. |
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11/28/2008 12:39:07 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Jac:
A man threw acid in a woman's face because she refused his wish for marriage and now the Iranian court has decided to blind the man as punishment.
Do you agree or not to this type of vengeful retribution?
An eye for an eye |
His or the courts? Both are retribution, both are vengeful. Are we to consider that his act is less reprehensible because it wasn't government sanctioned?
Personally, I am against vengeful retribution. But this case seems kind of fitting on both the logical front and emotional front. I'd hate to be him but I'd hate to have been her also. Seems kind of fair and yet I am not a proponent of 'like begets like.' What I do find surprising is that he was prosecuted for throwing acid at a woman, given the way women are generally treated in islamic countries. |
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11/28/2008 12:42:22 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
It does not seem to me that it's as obvious as you think it is that "formulaic law" is "barbaric". There's a certain symmetrical logic to the idea that if you deliberately harm another, you deserve to have the same harm visited upon you to balance out the scales. Of course, the same legal system prescribes stoning of adulteresses but lets adulterers off scot-free most of the time, so....
it's just not that cut-and-dried to me.
R. |
It's fairly obvious to me. Instead of committing outrageous acts of barbarism in response to outrageous acts of barbarism, how about fixing the fundamental flaws in a society that would enable a man to consider a female so completely worthless, so bereft of autonomy, that he could even begin to think of such a reaction?
I understand you are arguing this from a historical and perhaps cultural perspective, but the reason it's not cut-and-dried is because the basis for such a system of justice is itself twisted and flawed. It's a "no" to humanity. I can't express my contempt for this cynical "system", for this disavowal of human dignity, strongly enough.
Message edited by author 2008-11-28 12:42:51. |
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11/28/2008 01:05:24 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Louis:
Vile and barbaric. Disgusting. Any justice system that could come up with something like this is surely comprised of the dregs of the humanity. |
Well, they have it in the Bible too; "an eye for an eye", formulaic justice. It all stems from the ancient codes of law laid down by Hammurabi, and these came into being, oddly enough, at least partly to counter OVER-reaction by those who had been wronged. I mean, you're better off with your hand cut off than outright killed, right? That was the theory...
Anyway, there are a lot of different legal systems in the world now. Even our Western world operates under two basic codes; ours is derived from English Common Law and goes back to the Magna Carta, and then there's the Napoleonic Code as well. As a gross oversimplification, in the one you're innocent until proven guilty, and in the other you're guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
(Don't jump on me, legal eagles, this is the cartoon version here)
It does not seem to me that it's as obvious as you think it is that "formulaic law" is "barbaric". There's a certain symmetrical logic to the idea that if you deliberately harm another, you deserve to have the same harm visited upon you to balance out the scales. Of course, the same legal system prescribes stoning of adulteresses but lets adulterers off scot-free most of the time, so....
it's just not that cut-and-dried to me.
R. |
Well said.
Sometimes I wonder if we need to go back to more 'barbaric' forms of punishment. It's obvious that our current system(s) in North America and other western countries/continents doesn't work. Jail time does nothing for most people, besides breeding more violence and criminals. The fact that murderers/rapists/torturers/etc. go to the same place and get almost the same treatment as thieves/petty crime/etc. (my mind is gone, can't think of anymore lesser examples, heh) just goes to show that something is eventually going to have to give.
Of course, on the other hand, it all just comes down to humanity and/or lack thereof in the first place. Someone who's mind is broken isn't going to be deterred by the thought of having their eyes burned out/balls cut off/hand chopped off any more than the thought of a couple years in prison.
What a world. |
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11/28/2008 01:35:16 PM · #7 |
Very informative post R. As far as I see we're still in that history you refer to. It's a shame to see parts of the world grow into a respectable society while other parts of this planet are using ancient laws (Sharia) to deal with modern problems. As for example this case where a woman refused a man's proposal for a wedding. What if the woman were the instigator instead of the man? We wouldn't be here talking. She would have been branded a whore and put in jail, period. I find that women are wrongly accused in these societies of things that are instigated by men. We're seeing it more often, or it's being reported on more often, your choice.
Was it not two weeks ago that a thirteen year old girl was raped by several men and was put on trial for adultery? She was convicted and stoned to death in the same country?
I'm stuck in the middle on this. Like Dakota, I do not agree with (re)vengeful retribution because it's barbaric and above all does not send the right message. Vigilantism is not an option in today's world because that will lead to a break down of society as we know it. Look at the LA riots after the Rodney King fiasco.
On one hand I would like the man to feel the same pain and subsequent deprivation of his ability to lead a normal life with no sight. But on the other hand I feel like an animal advocating this type of act upon another human being. I think though, that for the common good this approach may be the best way to deal with it in this Iranian society.
Going to jail for 10 years or losing my vision, the choice for me would be easy, jail. So maybe this is what is being taken into consideration by the Iranian courts? I'd like to know if this is a common way to deal with such acts in their society or is this some radical judge who took it upon himself to teach the man a lesson. |
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11/28/2008 01:53:59 PM · #8 |
| It's deeply sad that one would even consider perpetrating an atrocity in response to an atrocity as a viable mode of justice for any society. That this form of barbarism is rooted in religious tradition makes it even more insane. |
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12/01/2008 10:00:42 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Vile and barbaric. Disgusting. Any justice system that could come up with something like this is surely comprised of the dregs of the humanity. |
I agree with you that corporal punishment is vile and barbaric. Barbaric in the sense of being primitively brutal.
However, I disagree that the people who impose such a system are drawn from the dregs. Corporal punishment has a long history, and is still widely practised in countries such as China, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and the USA. The fact that something is widely accepted in those jurisdictions does not make it morally acceptable or ârightâ but, when determining the moral strata from which one would draw the âdregsâ, the fact that corporal punishment is widely accepted within a society must improve the relative moral standing of those within that society who are meting it out.
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12/01/2008 10:55:08 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by Louis:
Vile and barbaric. Disgusting. Any justice system that could come up with something like this is surely comprised of the dregs of the humanity. |
I agree with you that corporal punishment is vile and barbaric. Barbaric in the sense of being primitively brutal.
However, I disagree that the people who impose such a system are drawn from the dregs. Corporal punishment has a long history, and is still widely practised in countries such as China, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and the USA. The fact that something is widely accepted in those jurisdictions does not make it morally acceptable or ârightâ but, when determining the moral strata from which one would draw the âdregsâ, the fact that corporal punishment is widely accepted within a society must improve the relative moral standing of those within that society who are meting it out. |
I'll agree that my initial reaction was an emotional one, but it wasn't intended as an attack on corporal punishment, as morally outrageous as I also find that. I'm not sure you can style retributive Old Testament justice "corporal punishment", particularly if you're pointing to the US as a country still practicing it. (I can't think of what form of corporal punishment might still be practiced there, but see next sentence.) I see a difference between committing horror-movie acts of vengeance in the name of justice, and swatting a kid's bum in the name of "correcting" him. Both are reprehensible, but the former is aggravated, inhumane and degrading. |
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12/01/2008 11:49:32 AM · #11 |
In general I do not believe in punishment of any kind. Smart people avoid being punished, either by behaving... or by being sneaky, lying, cheating. And some people just don't care.
Not an example of crime but take a parent protecting their children, they will do anything, including give their own life to protect their children. Many people are willing to be punished to any extent to in return protect what they find valuable also.
The best method of preventing crimes is empathy. Like racism, it cannot be outlawed it just pushes it into the shadows where it festers. People don't need to be controlled, they need to be changed, on a fundamental level. Prisons do nothing to this effect, carving someones eyes out, well great now instead of that society having one blind and disabled person, they now have two.
I've said this before, and wishful thinking as some believe it is, the solution will present itself the moment we stop seeing criminals as lesser humans, the moment we stop seeing strangers as lesser humans, the moment we stop seeing anyone as less than we are. That is the whole seed of crime, one person believing they are better or more worthy than someone else and not giving a frack what happens to them.
PS- "An eye for an eye makes us both blind."
Message edited by author 2008-12-01 11:51:08. |
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12/01/2008 12:55:44 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by togtog:
I've said this before, and wishful thinking as some believe it is, the solution will present itself the moment we stop seeing criminals as lesser humans, the moment we stop seeing strangers as lesser humans, the moment we stop seeing anyone as less than we are. That is the whole seed of crime, one person believing they are better or more worthy than someone else and not giving a frack what happens to them.
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We can hope but i'm afraid that before what you are suggesting changes, there will need to be a cataclysmic event for everyone to join together and find a common bond, such as survival after a nuclear holocaust, to even start to think about forgetting our self imposed value system; money. |
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