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11/17/2008 12:07:52 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
...But if you don't see the connection to the challenge topic, the photographer has failed to communicate to you. Again, think of yourself as a client wanting a photo of X. When the photographer presents you with a photo of Y, would you say to yourself, "well, maybe that is an X"? |
ΓΆ€ΒΆ Would you not, at least, consider the possibility that you (any viewer) may have failing communication issues?
ΓΆ€ΒΆ No, I am no client in this case. It's a photography contest, not a commercial assignment. Even if it were, there should be a significant difference, if the client was an arts magazine, a gallery or a manufacturer of toothpaste.
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11/17/2008 12:13:12 PM · #27 |
| I think people are getting hung up on this because there are those who take photos for clients, and those who take photos for other reasons. Being booked for a specific shoot of a specific product, for example, is rather different than approaching it with an attitude of "how can I creatively interpret the theme." I value the out-of-the-box entries, while clearly many others value the things that fit inside the box. Meanwhile, others take photos of the box itself. Each of those can fit the theme if the viewers are also creative enough to be willing to look at it with an open mind. |
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11/17/2008 12:16:27 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by kingskingdom:
Lets first assume that for all other reasons I would rate the following images as a 10. What score should I give in reality? Is there an accepted reduction for DNMC or shoehorn entries?
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Vote any way you want within the DPC sites terms of service. It's up to you and nobody elses business. |
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11/17/2008 12:23:51 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Shoehorn is tricky. In the example above of "Broken Heart", it's not a shoehorn as the description does say it has to be a photo of a heart -- when in fact most of the photos we have don't look like hearts, but more like valentines. So, for you example, a shoehorn meets the challenge and therefore has earned the right to be assessed on its merits. |
Where does it say that? In fact, there's no description provided at all. I presume you're DNMCing any image without a physical heart in it.
/shakes head |
No, you misinterpreted what I said... but go figure. I simply stated the fact that the challenge is very open in that it only calls for a "heart" representation. Real heart, valentines, sad person with a broken heart.
If you'd bothered to read what I wrote, you'd have seen that I was indicating this was a wide open topic -- not an insanely narrow one as you tried to imply. |
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11/17/2008 12:25:01 PM · #30 |
| I have seen some very creative interpretations, some only becoming clear after a few minutes of studying the shot. I like this as it makes me think, and lets me see something in a different way. However, when the only tie in to the challenge I can find is the title, or when even that seems to have no bearing on the topic, the photographer has failed to communicate to me, whether the fault is with me or the photographer, and my vote can only be based on my opinion. As I don't think of every challenge as a free study, I cannot give a high score to what, to me, is a DNMC. |
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11/17/2008 12:32:00 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
What's wrong with assuming every shot meets the challenge, somehow? Otherwise why else would the photog have entered it? |
I have never understood that logic, but I am sure they equally do not understand mine. In the end I guess we tolerate each other and move on. :)
Mainly my opposition to DNMC photos is fairness. Contests have winners and losers. Contests have rules. People who ignore/bend/shoehorn have many more available subjects than those who try to fully meet the challenge. Some subjects are more photogenic than others and this gives the DNMC photo an unfair advantage unless they get scorely much lower.
I rate DMNC by a pretty simple test. I ask my kids what challenge they think this photo is for. After they give me two or three guesses, I tell them what the challenge is. If they smile and nod, it meets the challenge. If they frown and say "huh", then it does not. Obviosuly I do not do this with every photo but this is the thought process that I go through.
Message edited by author 2008-11-17 12:34:09. |
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11/17/2008 12:33:17 PM · #32 |
IMO the Big Heart makes no sense to me.
The Broken heart seems like it would fit.
Originally posted by kingskingdom:
Hi please forgive me for asking a basic question. However I have done a quick search on the forums and am still lost as to which way to vote. I have used the current heart challenge as an example. However, these titles/pics are made up so do not relate to any actual entries.
Lets first assume that for all other reasons I would rate the following images as a 10. What score should I give in reality? Is there an accepted reduction for DNMC or shoehorn entries?
DNMC example. Title - "Big Heart" - Amazing image of smiling boy standing in corn fields playing with a kite
Shoehorn example. Title "Broken Heart" - Amazing image of boy standing in cornfields looking unhappy.
Whatever the score, i understand that it is good form to comment. |
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11/17/2008 12:52:59 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I have seen some very creative interpretations, some only becoming clear after a few minutes of studying the shot. I like this as it makes me think, and lets me see something in a different way. However, when the only tie in to the challenge I can find is the title, or when even that seems to have no bearing on the topic, the photographer has failed to communicate to me, whether the fault is with me or the photographer, and my vote can only be based on my opinion. As I don't think of every challenge as a free study, I cannot give a high score to what, to me, is a DNMC. |
As others have already pointed out, you can do as you please, but you won't substantiate your argument by ignoring points already made, i.e that
ΓΆ€ΒΆ an emphasis on topicality may be stressed for the creative benefit of the entrants and not for the righteous glee of the uninitiated;
ΓΆ€ΒΆ it should be useful to, at least, entertain the possibility that you or I (any viewer) may have failing communication issues, before passing judgement? ;
An opinion, too, may either be informed or uninformed.
You're unlikely furthering the debate by merely digging in your heels. |
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11/17/2008 01:12:08 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
On (Challenge) Topicality
I do not penalize entries for failing to meet the challenge. I may award a higher score to a unique interpretation or to a finesse I recognize, but I cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture. |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
But if you don't see the connection to the challenge topic, the photographer has failed to communicate to you. Again, think of yourself as a client wanting a photo of X. When the photographer presents you with a photo of Y, would you say to yourself, "well, maybe that is an X"? |
Yes, but as I understand the response, too much importance is put into a very narrow spectrum of how the voter THINKS the challenge topic should be interpreted.
Hawkeye Lonewolf's mistaken interpretation is a stellar example of this......he stated that the challenge description indicated that a photo of a heart was on topic when in fact, the challenge details are "N/A".
ETA: I got the same read as  Jac on that one......8>)
I cannot tell you how often I see comments to the effect that something doesn't meet "The spirit of the Challenge" which to me is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard to justify subjective voting. (And I can PROVE that! LOL!!!)
Personally, I often try for creative interpretations, but I fully understand that they will also get slapped if I'm "too clever" for my own good.
Message edited by author 2008-11-17 13:16:34.
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11/17/2008 01:16:15 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
... However, when the only tie in to the challenge I can find is the title, or when even that seems to have no bearing on the topic, the photographer has failed to communicate to me, whether the fault is with me or the photographer, and my vote can only be based on my opinion. As I don't think of every challenge as a free study, I cannot give a high score to what, to me, is a DNMC. |
I agree  chaimelle. Communication is a key factor in meeting the challenge. If the challenge entry fails to tell me that it's met the challenge then it's not going to score well.
A very interesting read on this subject was posted about 4 years ago by one of the most successful photographers on this site. Success meaning a fine collection of high-scoring challenge entries. We are talking about challenges and the impact of DNMC are we not? :-)
An excerpt from this post:
Originally posted by scalvert:
This IS a photography site, but concept is king. It says so right in the voting guidelines. Of course, a poor shot of a good idea isn't going to ribbon. You do have to understand your equipment and good photography principles, but the focused challenge is what makes this site special! That National Geographic photo of a green-eyed Afghan girl wouldn't top 4 in an Architecture challenge. |
Edit to fix a link.
Message edited by author 2008-11-17 13:19:00. |
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11/17/2008 01:35:03 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
On (Challenge) Topicality
I do not penalize entries for failing to meet the challenge. I may award a higher score to a unique interpretation or to a finesse I recognize, but I cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture. |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
But if you don't see the connection to the challenge topic, the photographer has failed to communicate to you. Again, think of yourself as a client wanting a photo of X. When the photographer presents you with a photo of Y, would you say to yourself, "well, maybe that is an X"? |
Yes, but as I understand the response, too much importance is put into a very narrow spectrum of how the voter THINKS the challenge topic should be interpreted.
Hawkeye Lonewolf's mistaken interpretation is a stellar example of this......he stated that the challenge description indicated that a photo of a heart was on topic when in fact, the challenge details are "N/A".
ETA: I got the same read as Jac on that one......8>)
I cannot tell you how often I see comments to the effect that something doesn't meet "The spirit of the Challenge" which to me is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard to justify subjective voting. (And I can PROVE that! LOL!!!)
Personally, I often try for creative interpretations, but I fully understand that they will also get slapped if I'm "too clever" for my own good. |
Um, actually Jac's interpretation was mistaken, not mine -- I was citing a perfect example of how the word heart could be taken literally even though the challenge description left interpretation wide open.
Message edited by author 2008-11-17 13:36:09. |
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11/17/2008 01:39:18 PM · #37 |
| I do believe there is more room for a loose interpretation when there are no challenge details. And the only time I would say there is a "spirit of the challenge" is when there is a very specific requirement such as 4 AM or 30 second exposure. I personally do not apply this to a color challenge, which may be inconsistent, but that's me! |
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11/17/2008 01:57:21 PM · #38 |
I have no difficulty with people downgrading if topicality seems marginal to them. What I *DO* have a problem with is people who say that they will award no DNMC image better than a 1, or a 3 even. I operate on the assumption that EVERY entry, with rare exceptions, in some way or form met the challenge in the photographer's eye. Like ZZ, when I see an image that makes me scratch my head and say "How is this relevant?", I entertain the possibility that the fault lies with ME, not the photographer.
To believe otherwise is to reduce the site to the least common denominator of creativity.
Hypothetical example: The challenge topic is "Mourning". One image shows a breathtaking dawn seascape. Another image shows a crowd of people clad in white robes, their backs turned to the camera.
In the first instance, the dawn shot, I have no problem seeing what the photographer was after; he's making a pun on the words morning/mourning. I'm not especially amused, I think it's a bit of a mockery, but even so... this image that would have scored an 8 or a 9 from me in a Free Study ends up with, say, a 5 in the "Mourning" challenge.
In the second instance, what am I to think? Oh wait, I get it! In some cultures white IS the color of mourning! Not black, white! One of our members from the Far East probably entered this one... I'm gonna score it on its merits, I can see where it DOES fit the challenge, it's not a shoehorn.
BUT, and this is a big "but", out there in DPC-land the majority of the voters (through no particular fault of their own) will not be culturally aware enough to make this connection, and the shot is gonna get hammered.
So this is the problem with the "magazine assignment" approach to voting; it completely marginalizes any cultural approach other than the mainstream, Western approach, and it virtually guarantees that well-executed-but-obvious entries will win the majority of the ribbons. And that's too bad. IMO anyway...
R.
Message edited by author 2008-11-17 13:58:38. |
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11/17/2008 02:44:35 PM · #39 |
| I realized that I had to try for global understanding many challenges ago when I entered a shot of spilled milk with the title Don't Cry. Robert, your example is valid and I would not vote the shot of the white robes down. However, I cannot just assume every shot that is DNMC to me actually meets the challenge somewhere in the world. It does depend some on what the challenge is. Mourning varies a lot by culture, but yellow is yellow and a long exposure is not a stop action sports shot taken at noon. |
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11/17/2008 02:47:53 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
yellow is yellow and a long exposure is not a stop action sports shot taken at noon. |
Well, yeah, but TECHNICAL challenges are relatively easy to DNMC on. That's not really an issue. For the "Yellow" challenge, if the description was "N/A" then I think an image of a person being cowardly meets the challenge, right? If the description was "Depict the color yellow" then that would be a different story...
R. |
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11/17/2008 02:54:02 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
That's not really an issue. For the "Yellow" challenge, if the description was "N/A" then I think an image of a person being cowardly meets the challenge, right? If the description was "Depict the color yellow" then that would be a different story...
R. |
Agreed!
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11/17/2008 03:06:24 PM · #42 |
I was on a train a couple of years ago - from Pisa to Naples.
All sorts of people on the train and plenty of them.
I was on my own so I inflicted myself on a couple of Italians and practised the language.
I even said 'okichiniwa' to a bunch of Japanese sitting nearby.
They appreciated it, anyway.
As we're sitting near the end of the carriage, near the toilets, one of the Italians had occasion to point out to me that a Japanese man had just gone into the ladies' toilet (or that a woman had gone into the mens', or both, or whatever). Maybe he thought I knew some more words of Japanese and could explain the problem to them.
Fat chance.
We also agreed that there wasn't any problem, as there's only room for one person in there, so the danger of two sexes is remote and in any case not exacerbated by failure to interpret the icon on the door.
It was the icons on the door.
It's pretty common practise in Europe to leave out the words Femmes, Ladies, Frau, Kvinner, Mujer, Damer etc etc as you're not going to please all the people all the time with them anyway. So toilet doors are decorated with simple and obvious icons, usually better than, but nevertheless not dissimilar to these ones wot I just did:
 
and they do the job just fine.
But, if you think about all your shoguns and dancing lilies, creeping dragons or whatever those films are called, you may notice that all the women have cloth bound legs and the ninjas have some sort of robes that look uncommonly like dresses. At least they would in silhouette.
So it's not that surprising that the Japanese got a bit off piste while going off ... you know what I mean ...
This post is in support of  Bear_Music's offering above. |
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11/17/2008 03:09:40 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Hawkeye Lonewolf's mistaken interpretation is a stellar example of this......he stated that the challenge description indicated that a photo of a heart was on topic when in fact, the challenge details are "N/A".
ETA: I got the same read as Jac on that one......8>) |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Um, actually Jac's interpretation was mistaken, not mine -- I was citing a perfect example of how the word heart could be taken literally even though the challenge description left interpretation wide open. |
Yeah....I got that, hence my edit, but I can't glean that from rereading your post.....sorry....8>)
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11/17/2008 03:12:24 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
yellow is yellow and a long exposure is not a stop action sports shot taken at noon. |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Well, yeah, but TECHNICAL challenges are relatively easy to DNMC on. That's not really an issue. For the "Yellow" challenge, if the description was "N/A" then I think an image of a person being cowardly meets the challenge, right? If the description was "Depict the color yellow" then that would be a different story...
R. |
Yeah......that freight truck was a terrific example of how yellow.......can be orange!
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11/17/2008 04:44:39 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I have no difficulty with people downgrading if topicality seems marginal to them. What I *DO* have a problem with is people who say that they will award no DNMC image better than a 1, or a 3 even. I operate on the assumption that EVERY entry, with rare exceptions, in some way or form met the challenge in the photographer's eye. Like ZZ, when I see an image that makes me scratch my head and say "How is this relevant?", I entertain the possibility that the fault lies with ME, not the photographer.
To believe otherwise is to reduce the site to the least common denominator of creativity.
Hypothetical example: The challenge topic is "Mourning". One image shows a breathtaking dawn seascape. Another image shows a crowd of people clad in white robes, their backs turned to the camera.
In the first instance, the dawn shot, I have no problem seeing what the photographer was after; he's making a pun on the words morning/mourning. I'm not especially amused, I think it's a bit of a mockery, but even so... this image that would have scored an 8 or a 9 from me in a Free Study ends up with, say, a 5 in the "Mourning" challenge.
In the second instance, what am I to think? Oh wait, I get it! In some cultures white IS the color of mourning! Not black, white! One of our members from the Far East probably entered this one... I'm gonna score it on its merits, I can see where it DOES fit the challenge, it's not a shoehorn.
BUT, and this is a big "but", out there in DPC-land the majority of the voters (through no particular fault of their own) will not be culturally aware enough to make this connection, and the shot is gonna get hammered.
So this is the problem with the "magazine assignment" approach to voting; it completely marginalizes any cultural approach other than the mainstream, Western approach, and it virtually guarantees that well-executed-but-obvious entries will win the majority of the ribbons. And that's too bad. IMO anyway...
R. |
Well waid!
The Challenge description, when it is more than one word, doesn't usually read like an assignment. It reads like a challenge. If everyone interprets the challenge as an assignment, we get a lot of stock photography shots. For a challenge that reads Heart II, we get pictures of hearts & heart shapes.
A challenge is not an assignment. A challenge is to inspire originality & creativity in the photographer as well as in the voter. So, for those of us who try to motivate the voter to think "now that's heart" rather than "tack-sharp shot of a heart" we offer an opportunity to the literal-minded voter to vote our comp down because it's not a picture of a heart.
The literal-minded among us tend to loose sight of the fact that one person's literal, strict, assignment-driven interpretetation of "Heart II" may not match that of any one else's. So, that photographer will vote DNMC for everyone else's shot? What's wrong with assuming everyone gave the challenge their best shot? What's wrong with thinking of each challenge as a free study with a Theme?
If I wanted to use my camera to make money I'd be doing assignments for money (not doing assignments for votes). My fees would be very high because I would regret every second spent shooting for money when I could be shooting because I'm obsessed with seeing the world thru a camera lens. I didn't enter Heart II, haven't looked at it yet because I expect to see a lot of pictures of hearts & heart shapes (bleh), but if I had I'd've probably entered a shot of a bowl of Wheaties because Wheaties is the Breakfast of Champions and all Champions have a lot of heart. I'd get a score of 4.x, but oh well. |
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11/17/2008 04:58:29 PM · #46 |
I've given up on scoring well.
Come to the Brown Side of the Force, Luke... |
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11/17/2008 05:00:30 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I've given up on scoring well.
Come to the Brown Side of the Force, Luke... |
Me, too. I've become very interested in the last page of any challenge. Interesting people show up there (like you). |
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