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11/05/2008 08:35:31 PM · #576 |
| Now just a minute here. I was not baiting! There was absolutely NO reason to remove my post. I was only offering a possible solution to a problem. |
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11/05/2008 08:48:19 PM · #577 |
| Asking another human to have major surgery to conform to your arbitrary definition of a word is downright vile, and most certainly baiting. |
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11/05/2008 08:56:16 PM · #578 |
I didn't ask either of them to have surgery. I asked if that would be a possible solution to get around the 48 to 52 vote against calling their relationship "marriage". It seems I am not the only one who has what you describe as an "arbitrary definition of a word" and I resent you calling me "vile".
Look, IF one of a gay couple had the surgery, would they be allowed to marry? That was my question.
Message edited by author 2008-11-05 21:04:53. |
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11/05/2008 09:16:20 PM · #579 |
If you don't understand the difference between a homosexual and a transexual then you are missing a few basic facts. I keep thinking that the abstinence only sexual education might leave a few pages in the book unread.
If you found out that you had blood pressure issues, and someone suggested you might want to cut off your arms and legs to help out with that, how would you see that? Constructive? Humorous?
To combat the discrimination that elderly people face in the workplace, would you be interested in radical plastic surgery so you might attempt to pass as a twenty year old? Such a suggestion would be foolish, heartless and disrespectful, but may be not totally vile.
And yes, post-op transexuals are legally allowed to marry.
Message edited by author 2008-11-05 21:17:25. |
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11/05/2008 09:25:44 PM · #580 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
I resent you calling me "vile". |
Read it again. I didn't can you vile. I called the suggestion of major surgery as a "solution" to conform for the sake of others vile. We're talking about people who are perfectly happy with their present form, and I think the very notion that they should have to physically alter themselves to be accepted by others is utterly disgusting. It would be like asking African Americans to bleach their skin to get around the "problem" of racism or women masquerading as men so they might have the right to vote. In all cases, the victims of prejudice and hatred are not the ones who need to change. |
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11/05/2008 09:26:11 PM · #581 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Why not make it 'universal' throughout the states, from the beginning? |
Ya, that's a whole state's rights / federal rights thing. That argument is a bit beyond me. If the point of the post was this is the first step in an attempt to make it transitive, then I won't argue. If the point of the post was that being married in California grants marriage rights in all states currently, then I'd say that's not correct. If it was, why not just fly to Massacusetts and get married there? That would seem to me to be a way around Prop 8 if the transitive power of gay marriage exists. |
I have a very simple, direct answer for that. I could have, you are completely right. But I did not. I waited. I don't live in Massachusetts. California is my home.
Once people get it throught their heads that gays are sentimental humans like everybody else, it will all make so much more sense.
Message edited by author 2008-11-05 21:26:23. |
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11/05/2008 09:29:12 PM · #582 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Puts me in mind of Lincon's " a house divided" speech, and the granting of ownership recovery rights of slaves in free states, this issue is getting more and more complex, and some simple radical solution is down the road a bit. |
...like letting gays get married legally? It's so simple! I just did it!
(Apart from the wedding planning of course, which I was forced to do in mere months, just in case this very event occurred. That was not simple.) |
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11/05/2008 09:43:41 PM · #583 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
I didn't ask either of them to have surgery. I asked if that would be a possible solution to get around the 48 to 52 vote against calling their relationship "marriage". It seems I am not the only one who has what you describe as an "arbitrary definition of a word" and I resent you calling me "vile".
Look, IF one of a gay couple had the surgery, would they be allowed to marry? That was my question. |
One problem: WE ARE BOTH DUDES.
Good lord will it never cease? Will people never stop offering me solutions that either don't exist or are downright ridiculous?
If you could even THINK that this is a valid solution, you can't possibly sympathise with us as humans first, men second, and gays third. Not that there aren't effemiate gays out there, and not that there aren't guys who wish they were chicks and vice versa, but that is an entirely different kettle of fish. We like our junk.
Get it? I am a dude. I like dude things, like action figures and power tools and guns and porn. So does my husband. Why would we even consider what you suggest? To claim that this could be an alternative to 'get around' a law to get the rights I want... well that's just willfully ignorant. Would you chop off your wang for anything???
I can completely understand how some people would see malice behind a statement like that, or at least a complete lack of sympathy, and call it vile, just like the one you made about consummating my marriage. Perhaps if you were a bit more delicate, people would stop deleting your posts.
I guess I took the bait!
Message edited by author 2008-11-05 22:39:15. |
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11/05/2008 10:27:42 PM · #584 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by David Ey:
I didn't ask either of them to have surgery. I asked if that would be a possible solution to get around the 48 to 52 vote against calling their relationship "marriage". It seems I am not the only one who has what you describe as an "arbitrary definition of a word" and I resent you calling me "vile".
Look, IF one of a gay couple had the surgery, would they be allowed to marry? That was my question. |
One problem: WE ARE BOTH DUDES.
Good lord will it never cease? Will people never stop offering me solutions that either don't exist or are downright ridiculous?
If you could even THINK that this is a valid solution, you can't possibly sympathise with us as humans first, men second, and gays third. Not that there aren't effemiate gays out there, and not that there aren't guys who wish they were chicks and vice versa, but that is an entirely different kettle of fish. We like our junk.
Get it? I am a dude. I like dude things, like action figures and power tools and guns and porn. So does my husband. Why would we even consider what you suggest? To claim that this could be an alternative to 'get around' a law to get the rights I want... well that's just willfully ignorant. Would you chop off your wang for anything???
I can completely see how some people would see malice behind a statement like that, or at least a complete lack of sympathy, and call it vile, just like the one you made about consummating my marriage. Perhaps if you were a bit more delicate, people would stop deleting your posts.
I guess I took the bait! |
This might be one of the best responses I've seen on this site, priceless. FWIW Mousie, I'm sorry that the prop passed stripping you of something that is so important to you and your husband. Best wishes to you and yours and I do believe that it's a matter of time for you to receive the rights you deserve, shitty that you have to keep fighting and struggling though. |
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11/06/2008 09:04:44 AM · #585 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I am a dude. I like dude things, like action figures and power tools and guns and porn. |
I am completely intrigued by this statement and seriously request you expound on it - particularily the guns part. Please feel free to send me a PM or email as you may not want to elaborate here. |
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11/06/2008 09:26:41 AM · #586 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Mousie:
I am a dude. I like dude things, like action figures and power tools and guns and porn. |
I am completely intrigued by this statement and seriously request you expound on it - particularily the guns part. Please feel free to send me a PM or email as you may not want to elaborate here. |
Why only about guns? Why are you pointing out that his mention of guns is intriguing to you? What is the difference between him saying it and me saying it? I can't wait for your answer because I am sincerely intrigued by your question. |
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11/06/2008 09:38:45 AM · #587 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Mousie:
I am a dude. I like dude things, like action figures and power tools and guns and porn. |
I am completely intrigued by this statement and seriously request you expound on it - particularily the guns part. Please feel free to send me a PM or email as you may not want to elaborate here. |
Why only about guns? Why are you pointing out that his mention of guns is intriguing to you? What is the difference between him saying it and me saying it? I can't wait for your answer because I am sincerely intrigued by your question. |
I think there is a tendancy by some to paint their opposition with a broad brush. I imagine that it's hard for some people to believe that there may actually be liberally-minded people who are also gun enthusiasts or hunters or SUV-drivers or whatever. Just as I'm sure it's hard to believe that there may be some Christian Conservatives who support gay rights.
Mousie, I am truly upset about what has happened in California. It puts a very dark blot on an otherwise joyous election. I hope that it won't be long before we can have a national Constitutional Amendment securing equal rights for gay marriage.
And fwiw, it was not me who reported David this time around -- I suspect the SC acted on their own. I honestly believe that David was asking a sincere question, as misguided as it may have been. |
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11/06/2008 09:40:59 AM · #588 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Mousie:
I am a dude. I like dude things, like action figures and power tools and guns and porn. |
I am completely intrigued by this statement and seriously request you expound on it - particularily the guns part. Please feel free to send me a PM or email as you may not want to elaborate here. |
Why only about guns? Why are you pointing out that his mention of guns is intriguing to you? What is the difference between him saying it and me saying it? I can't wait for your answer because I am sincerely intrigued by your question. |
I don't understand your question at all. Please be more specific. I am a gun owner. An advocat of the 2nd amendement. I wish to understand his use of the word. Is he an NRA member? Does he participate in any leagues or matches? If so which ones? Is he involved with any of the legislative movements to get CCW laws enacted accross the country - if so which ones? As I have argued publicly for support of these here and never recall Mousie as an ally in my efforts, I am intrigued as to what he meant by the word "guns". Is he a collector? An instructor? Ex military? Given that he might be a Life Member of the NRA and prefer not to make that public, I respectfully mentioned he could PM me.
Now if you have no further questions for me, I'll await a reply from him - if he chooses to do so. |
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11/06/2008 10:18:34 AM · #589 |
Since we are off on the subject of guns I would like to say that there has been a law making it illegal to shoot people for a long time. Outlawing guns will not solve anything.
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11/06/2008 10:21:30 AM · #590 |
Well, let's STOP discussing guns (here) and get back to the issue of (equal) rights for homosexuals.
You can start a thread on the inaccurate sterotyping of firearm afficionados elsewhere. |
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11/06/2008 12:04:06 PM · #591 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Mousie:
I am a dude. I like dude things, like action figures and power tools and guns and porn. |
I am completely intrigued by this statement and seriously request you expound on it - particularily the guns part. Please feel free to send me a PM or email as you may not want to elaborate here. |
Sorry GeneralE, but he asked, and I think it's useful to break people of their stereotypes by showing that their assumptions are often innacurate.
I grew up in Vermont. Vermonters like their guns. I regularly take the time to go outside and shoot up some crap with my family when I visit my childhood home. Vermont's the kind of state where you can walk out into your rural yard, not 50 feet from a high school baseball game taking place across the street, whip out your shotguns, and start shooting skeet... and nobody even bats an eye. I'm dead serious. Crowds of sporting 14-18 year olds and their parents won't make a peep about it... heck, they might even wave!
I can attest to this, because that describes my '07 Thanksgiving vacation to a T. My brother and his wife (who took part, go Greta!) even printed up some commemorative mugs as x-mas gifts, with pictures of us all toting, goggles and hearing protection in full effect.
And despite living in Caliornia (which is insane when it comes to guns), I'm one of those guys that truly believes people kill people, not guns. I feel the same about guns as I do words... it is their actual use which is important, not all possible outcomes of their use, and if I can use them for positive ends, I should have the right to do so, even if that use is simply entertainment.
No, I don't compete. No, I didn't join the NRA, since I don't like their broader agenda. I visit target ranges and go shooting with pals on rural private property. I did just buy my first personal weapon (SIG P220 Equinox, nom nom nom) last week (still waiting... tap tap tap) and I bought it in part because I wanted one before the election in case some idiot is going to make them harder to acquire. Much like my gay marriage... I wanted to be grandfathered in, just in case. That's more logisitic hoop jumping nobody should have to deal with, IMO! I'll probably buy another one as soon as my 30 day handgun waiting period is up, since I want a revolver as well. Now is the time! You might even think of it as a wedding present... I bought the P220 with wedding cash. My husband Eric got himself a Ruger GP100... we should have them engraved!
Another reason I just got my own gun is that a few friends got new guns recently... it seemed like good timing. They're motivated to go shooting! That said, I've wanted to actually own one since I was a wee child, I acquired the taste early. First, shooting at water filled Diet Pepsi cans with mom and dad and a .44 magnum revolver, then getting my marksmanship badge or whatever from the Boy Scouts.
...a group I would never have been allowed to join if I had been more open about my orientation as a child, mind you. Perhaps if conservatives didn't try to ban gays from the Boy Scouts, more of them would be into guns, eh?
You might be surprised just how many gays have guns. I'm guessing that about ONE THIRD of the gay people I know own pistols, shotguns, or rifles, and love to use them. My best gay friend has practically all the legal weapons from Counter Strike. Remember, gays are often geeks... and geeks watch lots of violent movies and play violent video games... how could they not become a little enamored with weaponry? Add in a geeky cashflow and less chance of kids around... BAM! Lots of gun purchases.
There are even gay gun groups, like the 'Pink Pistols', with their inflammatory motto: "Armed Gays Don't Get Bashed". They are HUGE advocates of concealed carry, BTW. ;) One salesman at the gun shop asked me if I had ever been to one of their local meets, since he was thinking of going himself, but I had to say no. I'm not a joiner... I hardly belong to any groups of anything. It's another Vermont thing. We're fiercely independent, and you can't shake 21 years of upbringing easily! I'm sure it's just as hard to shake an upbringing that tells you gays aren't worthy of rights.
And I do my part to make sure my right to bear arms is protected. I *shudder* vote with the conservatives on this one. I'm a fiscal conservative as well. Oh how I wait for the day when the Republican party tears itself in two and I can finally find my socially liberal, fiscally conservative home. I also speak up for guns in public forums just like this, I have no shame in being a gun enthusiast. Even if I were a member of the NRA, I would have no qualms about mentioning it here.
You haven't seen me comment in support of your stance on guns in these forums because I don't read all the threads. I've been here a long, LONG time, and follow only a few discussions from way back when. I'm rather pleased that they have continued as long as they have! IMO, it was a sad day when the vitriol in response to my post on "what's the big deal" got that thread locked, but am pleased that the discussion has resumed here. So don't worry Flash, I'm not picking and chosing if and when to ignore you. I simply haven't seen it.
Well, that's enough blathering about me for now. I hope I mixed in enough gay-related gun stuff to make it worthwhile. Back to the topic at hand? |
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11/06/2008 12:22:25 PM · #592 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I grew up in Vermont.... |
Much appreciate the reply. I could really support the Pink Pistols and truly believe their motto. I'll send a PM - so as to not take up any more space here.
FWIW - this is exactly how bridges get built. |
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11/06/2008 12:25:01 PM · #593 |
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11/06/2008 12:33:25 PM · #594 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
We're fiercely independent, and you can't shake 21 years of upbringing easily! I'm sure it's just as hard to shake an upbringing that tells you gays aren't worthy of rights. |
I disagree to a certain extent.
If it's the only thing you know and there's no motivation or inspiration to change, fine, but if it's pointed out reasonably, and factually that a belief that you have is seriously flawed, only if you're close-minded can it not change.
I believe in the Second Amendment, but I also don't buy it that it gives me the right to own 27 automatic weapons and carbon fiber handguns.
There are an awful lot of people to whom the plight of inequality is becoming apparent, and the funny thing is that it's the rabid detractors who affect an awful lot of positive change. I was not socially active and inspired 'til I saw the street preachers at my first Pride Fest. I was so horrified that anyone could be so despicable in this day and age that I felt that the least I could do is to stand up for my friends, in a non-confrontational manner, and show them that I had empathy, in a civil way, by being a Silent Witness.
My gay friends did not ask this of me.....it simply seemed right. I'm 53, and I grew up in an era of acceptance and disputing both the norm and the Establishment. That will not change for me.
This is a process, so unfortunately, it will not happen overnight, but I was around in 1968 and saw Dr. King's work, now we have a black president. It will only be a matter of time before common sense, common decency, and logic will prevail and the gay population will be "regular" Americans, just like they are now, only in more peoples' eyes and in the eyes of the law.
Hopefully, that will happen in my lifetime, too.
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11/06/2008 10:07:48 PM · #595 |
They don't make carbon fiber handguns!
But damn, that sounds awesome. Sign me up! Carbon fiber almost anything is hot hot hot.
Ahem.
I'm right with you about detractors causing positive change. Why do you think I complain when posts get deleted? :) Detractors often make the plight apparent. I'm actually pretty excited about the future, now that Prop 8 has passed. Gays and those that support them now have a lever to effect huge legal changes, since IMO the religious groups overstretched, dissembled and lied to do it, and have harmed themselves more than they've harmed the cause of equal rights. They've opened themselves up to a number of challenges that I feel have very good chances of going all the way to the US Supreme Court. What was that phrase about winning a battle but losing the war?
I had a wonderful experience today... a straight coworker wandered into my cube to apologize for not doing more to protect my rights. Equal rights was not a hot button issue for him, despite his complete sympathy for gays and his absolute belief that I am still and should be married, no matter what the conservatives say. He simply could not believe that California would vote the way it did, and was both shocked and shamed. You could see the anguish written on his face.
If it had not been for Prop 8 passing, his eyes would not have been thrown open to the intolerance of his peers.
How many new people now understand the opposition I face, and how many new people have been spurred into doing something about it? I know my family has been, and I know my friends and coworkers have been, because they have seen the face of oppression up close. Conservatives aren't just trying to take something away from me anymore, they're trying to take it away from everyone who participated or wished me well in my marriage. And now my kin and kind are champing at the bit, all fired up to make a difference. This time... it's personal.
If anything, Prop 8 passing has taught people a hard lesson about the generosity of their fellow man, and one that won't soon be ignored. Frankly, that's the reason I'm happy today, even though we 'lost'.
It's not over, and the right has seriously compromised itself and its ideals. Fear is losing its hold, and dissent is spreading within their churches and organizations. To be a fly on the wall of those Mormon halls where congregations are bristling in outrage because their tithes went to support a campaign they vehemently disagree with. It is true that not all religious folks are conservative, and many look on in horror at what their leaders have wrought. Is this when they finally take a stand for moderation? Only time will tell!
And the rest of us? We just have to keep being our normal, everyday selves, continue living, and fighting for what we know is right, even if that's just being who you are, day to day, without shame.
There is no denying it, change will come. It's going to be an exciting next four years.
Message edited by author 2008-11-06 22:15:58. |
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11/07/2008 06:58:25 PM · #596 |
Gosh, it's so empty here today!
Sort of like the promise of equal protection under the law!
Ho ho, I could not help myself.
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11/07/2008 07:20:24 PM · #597 |
| It's the rain. I hate rain. I get quiet when it's rained for 40 hours straight. |
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11/07/2008 08:06:56 PM · #598 |
Oh, what the heck - I've had this on my hard drive for a couple of days now,
It must be time to post it:
In another facet of this discussion
I don't watch too much TV, but when I saw ads put out by the proponents of Prop 8, I was amazed at the untruths placed in public view. And then, after the Election, a Prop 8 supporter said on the radio that most of the money and support came from within California. I did just a little Google checking. Fascinating resource.
It̢۪s interesting to note this article appeared a day or two ago in the Salt Lake Tribune. The headline reads:Mormon leaders urge respect for foes in gay-marriage debate and goes on to state, in part, " The LDS Church's campaign to pass Proposition 8 was its most vigorous since the 1970s, when it joined the effort to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment.
I'll just let the article speak for itself.
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11/07/2008 11:43:47 PM · #599 |
| Interesting discussion on MSNBC tonight about Proposition 8 and the African-American vote. Based on exit polls the black vote was something like 7 to 1 in favor of Prop. 8. If anyone should understand that "separate but equal" isn't equal, its black voters. |
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11/07/2008 11:59:56 PM · #600 |
Originally posted by citymars:
Interesting discussion on MSNBC tonight about Proposition 8 and the African-American vote. Based on exit polls the black vote was something like 7 to 1 in favor of Prop. 8. If anyone should understand that "separate but equal" isn't equal, its black voters. |
I saw that too, it blows my mind that a group of individuals who got out to vote to help overcome inequality actually helped stymied another group of individuals rights. |
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