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08/18/2008 02:25:12 PM · #51 |
| Wow I'm so glad I didn't post my first feelings about my placing. You'd all be lined up outside my door with torches and pitchforks. I can't tell you how PO'd I was to place behind some of the pics entered. Sorry if you're offended but that's my opinion and appearantly only a select few are permitted to air their opinions without being mobbed and beaten for it. I'm starting to seriously dislike this site and searching for others. It was a great site a couple years ago but it seems to be losing some of it's "Fairness" I don't enter too many challenges here and I find myself commenting even less because the voting makes ABSOLUTELY no sense what so ever. I have pegged pictures I was sure would be top three and they wind up 2nd page behind some mind boggling photos. Everyone here has to agree becuase I've read your bitches and gripes about recieving "annonymous" 1's, 2,s and 3's on near perfect pictures just to drag your average down and probably boost theirs. My only assumption is that there appears to be alot of back door "Support" going on here. Am I upset where my photo placed damn straight I am. This is the second challenge that I TRULY feel my photo deserved better. This particular challenge's photo I entered didn't warrant a top 3 finish becuase the top three are where they should be (well atleast two of them) but second page? WOW Your free to bring the torches and pitchforks now the door is open. |
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08/18/2008 02:27:43 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Battles are won with the extraordinary... Art flourishes when boundaries are pushed not when we cower at the gates of mass apeal.
Alfresco: Thanks, and ya I could probably do a bit better with the lighting... This was well after sunset, so ambient light was... well it wasn't... I'm more used to shooting either in my studio or in much better outdoor light. |
...and there is the rub. I am not trying to say that the winning photos each week are great art that pushes the boundaries. But, you appear to have confused personal art, and challenge entries. The images here are judges by the masses, and voted upon by the masses.
Hence no mass appeal, no high score. If you are offended by a score lower than you had hoped, then the solution as distasteful to you as it may be, is to shoot for a greater mass appeal. If you don't care about scores, then shoot as you please, and perhaps the comments and suggestions from photographers you respect will be enough. Like it or not, that's the deal, them's the cards we have to play. |
I would like to put on the record that I think this site is frickin' awesome, and I would never think of leaving... That said
a) I wa not offended by the score (rather the rank) and beyond that I wsn't reaelly offended but dissapointed. I din't convey that at the begining, and I aplogiesed... nuf said
b) I understand that Mass appeal is the way to get votes here, but maybe I though my shot HAD that AND creativity (obviously I was wrong on both counts)
c) Personal Art and challenge Entries need not be mutually exclusive, and infact I think when tha happens we all loose. if the point of this site is to learn by challenges, then personal art must be apart of that as well... beyond that isn't all art personal? |
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08/18/2008 02:30:13 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by jtf6agent:
Wow I'm so glad I didn't post my first feelings about my placing. You'd all be lined up outside my door with torches and pitchforks. I can't tell you how PO'd I was to place behind some of the pics entered. Sorry if you're offended but that's my opinion and appearantly only a select few are permitted to air their opinions without being mobbed and beaten for it. I'm starting to seriously dislike this site and searching for others. It was a great site a couple years ago but it seems to be losing some of it's "Fairness" I don't enter too many challenges here and I find myself commenting even less because the voting makes ABSOLUTELY no sense what so ever. I have pegged pictures I was sure would be top three and they wind up 2nd page behind some mind boggling photos. Everyone here has to agree becuase I've read your bitches and gripes about recieving "annonymous" 1's, 2,s and 3's on near perfect pictures just to drag your average down and probably boost theirs. My only assumption is that there appears to be alot of back door "Support" going on here. Am I upset where my photo placed damn straight I am. This is the second challenge that I TRULY feel my photo deserved better. This particular challenge's photo I entered didn't warrant a top 3 finish becuase the top three are where they should be (well atleast two of them) but second page? WOW Your free to bring the torches and pitchforks now the door is open. |
Just a note.. but this thread really wasn't a rail against the site thread... for bette of for worse DPC is still the best thing going. |
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08/18/2008 02:33:39 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by jtf6agent:
Wow I'm so glad I didn't post my first feelings about my placing. You'd all be lined up outside my door with torches and pitchforks. I can't tell you how PO'd I was to place behind some of the pics entered. Sorry if you're offended but that's my opinion and appearantly only a select few are permitted to air their opinions without being mobbed and beaten for it. I'm starting to seriously dislike this site and searching for others. It was a great site a couple years ago but it seems to be losing some of it's "Fairness" I don't enter too many challenges here and I find myself commenting even less because the voting makes ABSOLUTELY no sense what so ever. I have pegged pictures I was sure would be top three and they wind up 2nd page behind some mind boggling photos. Everyone here has to agree becuase I've read your bitches and gripes about recieving "annonymous" 1's, 2,s and 3's on near perfect pictures just to drag your average down and probably boost theirs. My only assumption is that there appears to be alot of back door "Support" going on here. Am I upset where my photo placed damn straight I am. This is the second challenge that I TRULY feel my photo deserved better. This particular challenge's photo I entered didn't warrant a top 3 finish becuase the top three are where they should be (well atleast two of them) but second page? WOW Your free to bring the torches and pitchforks now the door is open. |
Are you talking about this???
6.2487, A personal best, your comments: "Just a simple detail wedding shot from Friday. All in a days work."
Remember, the voting is a simple number, voters are not ranking one entry over another, so the acutal finishing position of any entry is somewhat arbitrary.
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08/18/2008 02:41:55 PM · #55 |
Also if you look at this challenge compared to other challenges. The average vote on this one was a 5.90857. This one had a lot of high scoring photos. In some challenges like the sugar one a 6.35 got in the top 10. It's all relevant to how people voted. This one had a lot of great images in it and the voting seemed a lot higher, we had 4 that were a 7 or higher.
I did have just a couple 1's, 2's, and 3's on mine this week, but I kind of figured I would with what I entered. :P
Message edited by author 2008-08-18 14:44:33. |
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08/18/2008 02:48:14 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by jtf6agent:
... the voting makes ABSOLUTELY no sense what so ever. |
I find it usually makes sense if you add to the equation a "DPC-Constant" corrective factor of 0.875 (for the higher-scoring photos) to 1.25 (for the lower-scoring photos).
I find the results of such an "adjustment" provides a relatively high degree of correlation with the vote I give/gave the photo, and with how I would have expected my own entries to fare as well.
The amount of "correction" needed will vary with each voter's voting average/pattern, but on the whole, the results seem reasonable most of the time. Every challenge will have some photos which some feel are under-appreciated, and these are often called to the attention of the site after the voting; mostly via people's individual "awards" -- however, I think it's rare that more than 5% of a challenge's entries so singled-out. |
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08/18/2008 02:48:32 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Thanks to the SC for changing the title :) |
Yes that's a little better indeed, glad the coffee has kicked in.
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08/18/2008 02:54:30 PM · #58 |
jtf6agent,
I can't think of an image I've entered that I didn't see one that scored higher and think, "Mine was better than this...".
That being said, if I look at them a few months later I often come to a little different view.
Some of the comments in this thread were IMNSHO a little harsh. And I do believe that there are some people out there giving 1's and 2's to either look for the scream in the forums, or to try to better the chances of their own entry. Supposesly the site has some super software that will detect such miscarraiges of justice, and correct same.
In the end, the winners look pretty darn good, and my crap settles to the bottom where it belongs. So if you see me with a ribbon, then you know the whole deal is rigged. (I got a master card, and I'm not afraid to use it!) ;-)
If I could get four or five helpful comments each challenge, I wouldn't care if I ever won anything. What I usually get are short quips. While the postive ones make me feel good, I'd love a "Move the light a little to the left, to give your image more depth."
So why do I stay? Because I can ask questions, and get answers. I don't have to be one of the elite, to talk to the elite.
But... if your needs are not being met here, then perhaps another site will fit you better. I'm not asking, nor suggesting anyone leave. But the reason that there is more than one site on the web, is that no site can be everything to everyone.
This site is what it is. Better suited for some than others. Hopefully you will stay, and find a way to enjoy the experience.
Message edited by author 2008-08-18 15:15:33.
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08/18/2008 03:00:30 PM · #59 |
I know how you feel, Michael. It seems we both are stuck in the mid-5s and struggling to find what's missing. Hang in there.
One of my last entries, I was sooo sure I was going to beat my top score... maybe even get a 6er!! I left town for a weekend only to come back to a 4.8. The comments were enough to let me know what the problem was with the picture, I guess I was just hoping for some credit for degree of difficulty. (too much gymnastics lately, i guess).
No coffee for me. A big margarita with a happy umbrella and lots of salt and I was ready for the next challenge.
Like  eyesup, I'll keep on keepin' on.
Here is the pic I was talking about.  |
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08/18/2008 04:08:26 PM · #60 |
eye, you are going to kill me here. But when i looked at the photo, I didnt get it. WHen i read the thread, I still don't get it. I am sorry, whats the meaning of it. why is she in a dinner dress with wine and a book in a shipping crate office thing?
Off to contimplate dying my hair brown |
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08/18/2008 04:15:28 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
eye, you are going to kill me here. But when i looked at the photo, I didnt get it. WHen i read the thread, I still don't get it. I am sorry, whats the meaning of it. why is she in a dinner dress with wine and a book in a shipping crate office thing?
Off to contimplate dying my hair brown |
hmmm... brown hair...
OK so no one got it... point taken...
The whole concept was of a female in a 'guys' world/job/role who strips is all off one day and and does what she always anted to to... be a girl, be pretty, curl up with a 'good' book (I never liked Steven King) and a glass of wine, of course she's on duty so she makes due with what she has...
Maybe a hard hat and a vest hanging around would have helped too......
so there's the story... appearantly I didn't conveay that at all... |
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08/18/2008 04:17:27 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
eye, you are going to kill me here. But when i looked at the photo, I didnt get it. WHen i read the thread, I still don't get it. I am sorry, whats the meaning of it. why is she in a dinner dress with wine and a book in a shipping crate office thing?
Off to contimplate dying my hair brown |
hmmm... brown hair...
OK so no one got it... point taken...
The whole concept was of a female in a 'guys' world/job/role who strips is all off one day and and does what she always anted to to... be a girl, be pretty, curl up with a 'good' book (I never liked Steven King) and a glass of wine, of course she's on duty so she makes due with what she has...
Maybe a hard hat and a vest hanging around would have helped too......
so there's the story... appearantly I didn't conveay that at all... |
Shipped to the wrong address. |
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08/18/2008 04:20:27 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
a female in a 'guys' world/job/role who strips is all off one day and and does what she always anted to to... be a girl, be pretty, curl up with a 'good' book (I never liked Steven King) and a glass of wine, of course she's on duty so she makes due with what she has... |
Well, duh - THAT shoulda been your title! :P |
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08/18/2008 04:31:09 PM · #64 |
| See, there's my problem :P I'm a bad titler... but then there are the people that sa we shouldn't have titles in challenge entries... I would have put that title and had those guys come out saying I had just shoehorned the entry... and the score and rank would be the same :) |
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08/18/2008 04:34:51 PM · #65 |
| I was kidding ( I know you know that), but I will admit that I am a bit of a title nazi myself. I can't stand titles that explain at great length. To me, part of the challenge is to use a simple, effective title to nudge voters into figuring it out if it's not obvious. But then, it's more beneficial to be obvious - at least if you care about your score / rank. |
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08/18/2008 04:34:59 PM · #66 |
Michael, how people here vote will remain a mystery forever. The mere range of ratings surprises me each time. Even winning photos often get 1s. And even the brown ribbon winner sometimes got several 10s.
However, a few trends can clearly be identified:
- DPCers prefer clean and simple images (this is why  IreneM is so successful, for example).
- DPCers prefer images with good, professional lighting (something lovethelight got pretty good at, for example).
- DPCers prefer images with strong colors ( AP had a few successful entries with this characteristic, for example).
- DPCers prefer images that meet the challenge in a creative way ( scalvert is the king of creativity).
- DPCers prefer humorous and emotional images (I could also mention scalvert here for the humor side, librodo would be an example for the emotion side).
(There are many others I could have mentioned, just wanted to give a few examples. And of course the mentioned photographers are not limited to the quality listed. ;) )
However, DPCers don't like:
- Cluttered images with elements distracting from the main subject.
- Images with bad lighting and "snapshot" feel.
- Images with flat colors.
- Images that hardly meet the challenge or where the connection to the challenge is only created through the title.
- Images that lack any kind of message or don't provoke an emotional reaction.
Unfortunately, your shot rather fits the second category... |
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08/18/2008 04:37:10 PM · #67 |
This is a mans world, but it aint nothing without a woman. (better title)
Can you guess whose music i am listening too lol |
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08/18/2008 04:39:37 PM · #68 |
I thought your picture was creative, I like the idea and I love the red dress. It is unique. Maybe the lighting could be better - I am no expert as I am always in the mid 5 range for scores (I did get above 6 one time). I have been studying the photos in DP challenge and I always expect constructive criticism when I post a photo because I am still learning. The scores can be harsh and some of the critiques are hard to read but some of the people on this site really know what they are doing and I am learning on DP challenge for free. When someone critiques my photo I always check their portfolio to see what kind of scores they have gotten, some people write stuff but have never entered a photo (so I don't take their opinions too seriously).
Most photos that deserve a 10 only get a 7. The winning photos are almost always in the 7 range so being in the 5 range is pretty good.
Good luck to you in the future challenges. |
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08/18/2008 04:40:21 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
DPCers prefer humorous and emotional images |
timfythetoo is a good example of that. One of his recent entries got a comment bomb! I'm surprised people leave those, no matter how much one might dislike another's style. People are weird. :-P |
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08/18/2008 04:40:56 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Michael, how people here vote will remain a mystery forever. The mere range of ratings surprises me each time. Even winning photos often get 1s. And even the brown ribbon winner sometimes got several 10s.
However, a few trends can clearly be identified:
- DPCers prefer clean and simple images (this is why IreneM is so successful, for example).
- DPCers prefer images with good, professional lighting (something lovethelight got pretty good at, for example).
- DPCers prefer images with strong colors ( AP had a few successful entries with this characteristic, for example).
- DPCers prefer images that meet the challenge in a creative way ( scalvert is the king of creativity).
- DPCers prefer humorous and emotional images (I could also mention scalvert here for the humor side, librodo would be an example for the emotion side).
(There are many others I could have mentioned, just wanted to give a few examples. And of course the mentioned photographers are not limited to the quality listed. ;) )
However, DPCers don't like:
- Cluttered images with elements distracting from the main subject.
- Images with bad lighting and "snapshot" feel.
- Images with flat colors.
- Images that hardly meet the challenge or where the connection to the challenge is only created through the title.
- Images that lack any kind of message or don't provoke an emotional reaction.
Unfortunately, your shot rather fits the second category... |
wow... ouch...
I'm usually up for brutal and constructive comments, but i'm not sure this fits as that... so let me t to turn this around as i'm sure your intent was to be constructive (I'm giving you the benifit of the doubt here)
What would you have done differently considering the time countraints, time of day, and subject chosen (all of which I'v mentioned in previous posts in this thead)? |
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08/18/2008 04:48:38 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Michael, how people here vote will remain a mystery forever. The mere range of ratings surprises me each time. Even winning photos often get 1s. And even the brown ribbon winner sometimes got several 10s.
However, a few trends can clearly be identified:
- DPCers prefer clean and simple images (this is why IreneM is so successful, for example).
- DPCers prefer images with good, professional lighting (something lovethelight got pretty good at, for example).
- DPCers prefer images with strong colors ( AP had a few successful entries with this characteristic, for example).
- DPCers prefer images that meet the challenge in a creative way ( scalvert is the king of creativity).
- DPCers prefer humorous and emotional images (I could also mention scalvert here for the humor side, librodo would be an example for the emotion side).
(There are many others I could have mentioned, just wanted to give a few examples. And of course the mentioned photographers are not limited to the quality listed. ;) )
However, DPCers don't like:
- Cluttered images with elements distracting from the main subject.
- Images with bad lighting and "snapshot" feel.
- Images with flat colors.
- Images that hardly meet the challenge or where the connection to the challenge is only created through the title.
- Images that lack any kind of message or don't provoke an emotional reaction.
Unfortunately, your shot rather fits the second category... |
wow... ouch...
I'm usually up for brutal and constructive comments, but i'm not sure this fits as that... so let me t to turn this around as i'm sure your intent was to be constructive (I'm giving you the benifit of the doubt here)
What would you have done differently considering the time countraints, time of day, and subject chosen (all of which I'v mentioned in previous posts in this thead)? |
I would have entered what I could and taken the score I got.
Sometimes that's all you can do, and if that's all you can do, and you choose to do it, you choose the outcome whatever it is.
You can't have it both ways. You can't complain that you are creating boundary-pushing art and that people don't "get" it, and then turn around and push excuses like time constraints and limited subject matter.
Be happy with your photo if you like it, but you're always going to be bitter if you think you can force your personal feelings about your art onto other people. Always. |
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08/18/2008 04:50:39 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
I'm usually up for brutal and constructive comments, but i'm not sure this fits as that... so let me t to turn this around as i'm sure your intent was to be constructive (I'm giving you the benifit of the doubt here) |
Don't think my post was brutal. I simply listed the trends I identified.
Originally posted by Eyesup:
What would you have done differently considering the time countraints, time of day, and subject chosen (all of which I'v mentioned in previous posts in this thead)? |
If you feel you don't have enough time and not the right resources to shoot a good image for a challenge, don't enter one. It keeps you from being disappointed by low scores.
And if you do enter and you receive comments afterwards, instead of asking people to justify their opinion, you could accept their comments and think about what you could change the next time to get a better rating. Changing your approach will be a lot easier than changing the voters. |
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08/18/2008 04:53:23 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
sneep
What would you have done differently considering the time countraints, time of day, and subject chosen (all of which I'v mentioned in previous posts in this thead)? |
Brought a fork lift truck with the lights on in left of picture, set up the sb800 with diffuser to the right on wireless remote with/without a reflector in there, bracketed exposures with manual settings on the onboard flash, aperture, etc.
I dare say the truck would be a problem (pity, would have added to the shot discourse), but a D300 + SB800 is some serious equipment. What they used to say when I turned up on site as a carpenter with some new piece of kit: "If you ever learn how to use those tools you'll be lethal." |
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08/18/2008 05:22:33 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
I'm usually up for brutal and constructive comments, but i'm not sure this fits as that... so let me t to turn this around as i'm sure your intent was to be constructive (I'm giving you the benifit of the doubt here) |
Don't think my post was brutal. I simply listed the trends I identified.
Originally posted by Eyesup:
What would you have done differently considering the time countraints, time of day, and subject chosen (all of which I'v mentioned in previous posts in this thead)? |
If you feel you don't have enough time and not the right resources to shoot a good image for a challenge, don't enter one. It keeps you from being disappointed by low scores.
And if you do enter and you receive comments afterwards, instead of asking people to justify their opinion, you could accept their comments and think about what you could change the next time to get a better rating. Changing your approach will be a lot easier than changing the voters. |
Who's trying to change voters?
You are right, you did identify trends (helpful)
then told me my shot didn't meet them (we'll I sort of guessed that... so only marginally helpful)
a follow up on what to do differently would have been nice (and very helpful)
Constructive critisism works by identifying faults or errors AND potential improvement corrections
and what a world it would be if everyone here only entered their perfect photos... |
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08/18/2008 05:23:45 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by raish:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
sneep
What would you have done differently considering the time countraints, time of day, and subject chosen (all of which I'v mentioned in previous posts in this thead)? |
"If you ever learn how to use those tools you'll be lethal." |
I'm working on being more lethal... one day i'll kill you all muh ha ha ha!!!!! lol |
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