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 11/17/2003 01:55:57 PM · #1
WHEN are people going to realise that full-frontal on-camera flash is SO UGLY ITS UNBELIEVABLE. Damn. Over and over again ... grgrgrgrmnmnph (splutters into incoherence).

Thanks for listening.

ed

Message edited by author 2003-11-17 13:56:18.
 11/17/2003 02:35:53 PM · #2
When you realize that a tungsten-tinged, blurry mess is the other option?

Sorry, but available light was insufficient for mine, and may camera has no option for external flash.

If we had more editing tools available, I think I could make the same image look as if it at least had some diffusion, if not altogether different lighting, without compromising the original photographic intent.

Now we both feel better ....
 11/17/2003 03:39:26 PM · #3
That's a big [huge] part of photography...LIGHTING. The control, measure and use.
Just part of the learning process.
 11/17/2003 03:41:19 PM · #4
At GeneralE, does your cam allow for you to decrease the sensativity of your flash? Can you put something in front of it to diffuse it? One can still be creative when using an onboard flash.
 11/17/2003 04:23:40 PM · #5
This shot:



was done with full-frontal on-camera flash. (I have a hot-shoe mount on my camera, but no external flash to mount on it!)

Personally, I think it looks pretty good.

And, as a side plug for DPCPrints, I had it printed there, and the quality is phenomenal. It looks absolutely amazing when printed from DPCPrints.
 11/17/2003 04:39:08 PM · #6
Full frontal flash can be done very well, if it doesn't create great big harsh shadows. Steve's shot is a good example.
 11/17/2003 08:01:13 PM · #7
Originally posted by crabappl3:
At GeneralE, does your cam allow for you to decrease the sensativity of your flash? Can you put something in front of it to diffuse it? One can still be creative when using an onboard flash.

No sensitivity control :(
I've read several of the hints on creating diffusion, but for this last shot I only found out I needed the flash about 10 minutes before the submission deadline, and didn't have time to put something together.

On an episode of Scientific American Frontiers I saw Alan Alda invent a flash re-direction unit which worked pretty well; basically a tiny, lightwight plastic periscope which sits in front of the flash bulb and moves it to 6-8 inches above the camera. I think the idea's now in the public domain if anyone wants to make one.

Message edited by author 2003-11-17 20:01:29.
 11/17/2003 08:18:53 PM · #8
IF anyone wants to complain about the flashes being used, maybe they should just fork out the cash for the rest of us so we can have lighting to make them happy.

This is a very annoying thing here...those who have everything think others should too. Some of us can't afford to go out and purchase a professional lighting unit on a whim. There are those of us who know what we want and have to get it a little at a time but hey if you want to pay for the rest of the lighting I want hey go right ahead email me and I will direct you to the set up I want!
 11/17/2003 09:08:59 PM · #9
I don't have everything - in fact, I have very little. Just took a little thought and effort. I never (that I can recall) use my flash on "studio" type shots. The light is too harsh and the shadows are too stark. I learned that one real quick. :) What I do have, I've cobbled together over the last few months:

- One 500w halogen work lamp. "Inherited" from my dad when he left it in my garage a few years back. This one's a pain in the but to use, cause there's no stand - it just sits on a table or the floor. But lots of bright, even light without real harsh shadows.
- One 60 incandescent lamp with a clip and a goose neck - I can clip it anywhere near where I'm shooting and angle it pretty freely. $10 at Home Depot.
- One 150w halogen clip light. Softer than the 500w, which is good and bad - using both doesn't cancel out each othere's shadows - the 500 creates shadows in the 150's area. The clip is very stiff, and the ability to aim it is somewhat limited, but it does a decent job. I think about $15 to $20 at Lowes.
- A couple of little pen-light type flashlights. I use these to "spotlight" small areas in my shot, such as my Alone In A Crowd shot. Got these as stocking stuffers in past Christmasses, but probably less than $10 each.

I've also seen several forms of small (maybe baseball diameter) halogen stick-on lights, like for running under cabinets or in closets, at places like Lowes and WalMart for around $20 for two or three - some day I think I'll by a set of those and see how they work mounted on three sides of my "light box" (an opaque plastic tub for about $10 at Ikea - a Father's day present) and see if that gives me a nice, even, shadow-free lighting.

Anyway, the point being, there are lots of ways to overcome the harsh, poorly positioned flashes on cheaper digicams than profesional lighting systems costing hundreds of dollars. The professional systems might produce somewhat better results and are probably easier to work with, but there are cheap, effective alternatives.

P.S.
Here's a picture of an earlier version of my "lightbox" set up, before I had the plastic tub and the 150w halogen. This was for my Corn Syrup (Liqud) shot.

P.P.S (Or is it P.S.S. - I forget...)
As an example of what Ed's talking about.... Here are some shots I tried for the Sound challenge that didn't work. I only had my camera with me at the time. I tried some other available light sources there, but none were sufficient (hand-held, no tripod, lots of shake). So I tried the trick mentioned above - place several layers of tissue in front of the flash. It helped, but as these shots show, it was still pretty ugly. So I didn't enter.

Message edited by author 2003-11-17 21:22:44.
 11/17/2003 10:20:31 PM · #10
I like that soft box! Did you do a custom wb for the shot?
I know what I'll be doing this weekend. So simple and it seems to do an excellent job.
You guys are so helpful! Thanks.
 11/17/2003 10:32:42 PM · #11
Great post there ScottK

I must look at getting one of that 150W halogens.

I recently purchased a pair of 500 W lamps, with a spare bulb each, on a single tripod type stand. Cost me US$25 or so (I have no idea how they can even make them for that, especially with 4 bulbs (globes?) included.

I also use a desk lamp.

I have also just bought a pair (they come in a pacl of 2) reflectors that POP open and sit in the car windshield to keep down the temp. These make perfect reflectors. I did have one that cost me US$1.50 that folded open, but then went wild and got this pair that have a sort of frame that POPS them open, they set me back a massive US$6. I not intend to mount one of them to this light and keet the other free standing.

I have yet to make a light box, but might even steal Scott's design (shush, nobody say a word!).

It may not be a totally professional setup but it is very good and the whole thing has cost me US$30, which realistically should be within the budget of anyone who can afford a digital camera, or is at least not totally out of reach.

Next time I have the whole thing set up I'll take a photo of it and post it ..... hmmm, but that begs the question .... how do I get the lighting right for the shot of the lighting?????
 11/18/2003 02:26:55 AM · #12
Originally posted by Natator:
I have also just bought a pair (they come in a pacl of 2) reflectors that POP open and sit in the car windshield to keep down the temp. These make perfect reflectors. I did have one that cost me US$1.50 that folded open, but then went wild and got this pair that have a sort of frame that POPS them open, they set me back a massive US$6. I not intend to mount one of them to this light and keet the other free standing.


That's a great idea. I keep meaning to try to come up with some idea for a reflector - that may be it. :) Thanks.
 11/18/2003 03:03:05 AM · #13
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
IF anyone wants to complain about the flashes being used, maybe they should just fork out the cash for the rest of us so we can have lighting to make them happy.

This is a very annoying thing here...those who have everything think others should too. Some of us can't afford to go out and purchase a professional lighting unit on a whim. There are those of us who know what we want and have to get it a little at a time but hey if you want to pay for the rest of the lighting I want hey go right ahead email me and I will direct you to the set up I want!


You don't need a lot of money to have great lighting.

A lot of people mentioned the 500watt shop light, and I second that. It can get quite hot in a room if you're using more than one, but that's the price you pay for for going the inexpensive route.

Another option is to buy a good used flash such as Vivitar 283 ($35-$50) or Vivitar 285 ($45-$75). These flashes can be found used at KEH.com a VERY reputable used equipment dealer. Combine one of these flashes with an inexpensive optical slave (check a local photo store), homebrew type diffuser information (PHOTO.net forums) and you can use your on camera as a fill flash while your slave flash functions as a great key light.
 11/18/2003 06:36:30 AM · #14
Originally posted by Quadrajet:


Another option is to buy a good used flash such as Vivitar 283 ($35-$50) or Vivitar 285 ($45-$75).



Oh yeah that is an option if it fits your camera and if you are going to be happy. They only way I can use them on my camera is with a $100 adapter. So if you want to go buy the adapter and flash for me I will glady use them til I get the rest of my lighting. Again I know what lighting I want to get. But ever hear of bills, kid, Santa and Christmas? The rest of my lighting is waiting til tax time unless you complainers want to buy them!

Message edited by author 2003-11-18 06:37:40.
 11/18/2003 07:02:54 AM · #15
For those using "onboard" flashes...I saw an article once on a super cheap difuser.

Take one tube of Pillsbury Cinnamon Buns. Bake them. Spread the Icing on top. Wash out the icing tub. Put it over the flash. Add scotch tape to secure it if necessary.

As for what lighting I use in my "studio," I paid a total of $15 for the light fixtures (two clip on shop lamps at $5 each from Lowes and one older, but bought on clearance, clip on gooseneck reading lamp) and another $5 or so for the "natural light" light bulbs to go in them. I've recently started using flashlights for additional lighting (I read the "How it was done" info on the Sunflower ribbon from the Still Life challenge).

I think it boils down to this: We do what we can with what we have and if we submit a photo here that has less than desireable lighting, we ought to know that for sure someone will complain about it. Don't take it personal, or turn it into a "keeping up with the Jones's" argument. Just know that any lighting comments made by voters or folks in the critique club are actually your own doing...you submitted the photo knowing you weren't happy with the lighting.

Shari
 11/18/2003 07:13:13 AM · #16
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Originally posted by Quadrajet:


Another option is to buy a good used flash such as Vivitar 283 ($35-$50) or Vivitar 285 ($45-$75).



Oh yeah that is an option if it fits your camera and if you are going to be happy. They only way I can use them on my camera is with a $100 adapter. So if you want to go buy the adapter and flash for me I will glady use them til I get the rest of my lighting. Again I know what lighting I want to get. But ever hear of bills, kid, Santa and Christmas? The rest of my lighting is waiting til tax time unless you complainers want to buy them!



Yes...yes I do have bills, kid, Santa and Christmas...hence the low cost suggestions in my post above. Your Minolta DiMAGE 7i has an on camera flash. That on camera flash should be strong enough to trigger an optical slave flash...no urgent need for an adapter. Also, like previously mentioned, diffusing the on camera flash can work wonders.

It appears as if your shutter speed can be open up to 30 seconds. That being the case, you could use a dark room and paint your subjects with light, for an intersting alternative. Of course your best bet would be to buy a couple of shop lights like previously suggested...those things work wonders!

I hope this helps,
Quadrajet
 11/18/2003 08:30:15 AM · #17
And for all you folk that use shop lights on a stand: Umbrella Mount for Shop Light on a Stand

I 'invented' this rig last winter when it was all I had. Hope it helps someone out there with their lighting issues.
 11/18/2003 08:31:37 AM · #18
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
IF anyone wants to complain about the flashes being used, maybe they should just fork out the cash for the rest of us so we can have lighting to make them happy.


Maybe that's why this was in the Rant forum instead of in the Hardware forum. It wasn't meant to be a suggestion. It was meant to be a Rant.
 11/18/2003 08:32:54 AM · #19
Originally posted by crabappl3:
And for all you folk that use shop lights on a stand: Umbrella Mount for Shop Light on a Stand

I 'invented' this rig last winter when it was all I had. Hope it helps someone out there with their lighting issues.


I'm definitely going to try this. I've not found the single halogen on a stand, though. I have a double-light, but can't find the single ones.... grrr
 11/18/2003 08:34:21 AM · #20
I don't know what I am complaining about, my 100% naturally lit studio is doing really well here. My book title photo is over a 6.1 (oh I don't think I will jinx myself with only 15 1/2 hours left in voting).

11/18/2003 08:45:18 AM · #21
Originally posted by crabappl3:
And for all you folk that use shop lights on a stand: Umbrella Mount for Shop Light on a Stand

I 'invented' this rig last winter when it was all I had. Hope it helps someone out there with their lighting issues.


Excellent link and setup...talk about inexpensive with fantastic results. Thanks for the link crab.
 11/18/2003 09:27:55 AM · #22
Yup, basically the same light I have Crabappl, and I intend to copy your excellent design there when I get a chance.

I couldn't find the single lamp version either Muckpond. I might take one of the lights off the double I have, as I can affix just the one to the top of the tripod, where the t-bar usually site.
 11/18/2003 09:38:37 AM · #23
I believe SpongeBob has used this setup for the dual light stands without too much problem. 1000w is always better than 500w :-D

arrrghh arrrgh, more power!
 11/18/2003 09:47:48 AM · #24
Thanks for all the great tips in this thread. I'm going to have some fun and learn something about lighting using them. I'm going out right now to but some Pillsbury Cinnamon Buns.
 11/18/2003 02:36:21 PM · #25
Here is even cheaper solution to a harsh on camera flash.

You might think this is silly, but try this: take a kleenex sheet (or tissue paper), fold it, tape it on the top of your flash so if fully covers it, and then shoot all you want. I shot many macros this way. It provides enough light through the kleenex, but not harsh enough to cause shadows or hot spots... (it needs some experimenting on how much tissue to include, but once you get it, it might save you some grief.)
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