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08/07/2008 11:25:01 AM · #51 |
So your answer to the original question was because you wouldn't want to be executed. The question asked about "fairness" of the process...
Let's say the sentence would be 20 years IF convicted. Now...what is your top 3 and bottom 3?
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
Originally posted by kenskid:
So US in your bottom three. How about your top three?
Edit: Why not for 1st degree murder? Because you wouldn't get a fair trial OR because you would get the NEEDLE if convicted?
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Nope...just wanted to get opinions. DPC has many people from many different countries. I just want to see what the top 3 and the bottom 3 were.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Let's say that in your life you were going to be arrested for a crime that you did not commit. Let's say there is some evidence there....enough to get a grand jury to hold you for trial.
Name your top three countries you would want this to happen in. (Obviously...the top three countries that you feel you would have the FAIREST possible trial).
While we're at it...name the top three you would have the hardest time getting a fair trial. |
What's your point?
That even the fairest of judicial systems is going to make some mistakes and ruin some innocent lives, but that's OK because the system is fair most of the time? |
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It would depend on the crime, I suppose and other circumstances. If it was a 1st deg Murder, the US would not be on my top list. |
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08/07/2008 11:31:00 AM · #52 |
great I click on the link not thinking about it and the whole title has child porn in it. I hope i dont get into trouble because they think I am browsing that kind of material at work or home. :(
However, it is very clear (at least in the State of Texas) that if you photograph a child and it is arouses anyone in a sexual manner it is considered child pornography. It is always a good idea to stay away from anything that doesnt display their age in this state. I try to make them look goofy. That usually keeps me outta that territory. |
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08/07/2008 11:34:28 AM · #53 |
| Raises an interesting question - how in the world can a photographer know what might arouse a pervert? Weird world. All of you with naked baby pics - get those off your hard drive now! |
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08/07/2008 11:34:48 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
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And so they should. I'm all for eye for an eye. What pisses me off is the fact they get to sit around for 10-20 years before they are executed wasting my tax dollars. I think they should let the family of the murdered person do the murdering of the muderer before midnight of the day of sentencing.
Message edited by author 2008-08-07 11:45:29.
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08/07/2008 11:39:46 AM · #55 |
I hear ya brother. However, get ready to be pounded by some that don't share your opinion !
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
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And so they should. I'm all for eye for an eye. What pisses me off is the fact they get to sit around for 10-20 years before they are executed wasting my tax dollars. I think they should let the family of the murdered person do the murdering of the muderer before midnight of the day of conviction. |
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08/07/2008 11:44:15 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
However, get ready to be pounded by some that don't share your opinion !
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I'm sure.
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08/07/2008 12:48:33 PM · #57 |
WWJD?
Originally posted by kenskid:
I hear ya brother. However, get ready to be pounded by some that don't share your opinion !
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
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And so they should. I'm all for eye for an eye. What pisses me off is the fact they get to sit around for 10-20 years before they are executed wasting my tax dollars. I think they should let the family of the murdered person do the murdering of the muderer before midnight of the day of conviction. |
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08/07/2008 01:44:39 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
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And so they should. I'm all for eye for an eye. What pisses me off is the fact they get to sit around for 10-20 years before they are executed wasting my tax dollars. I think they should let the family of the murdered person do the murdering of the muderer before midnight of the day of sentencing. |
An eye for an eye simple means to take no more than was taken from you. You take 10 dollars from my wallet, I take 10 dollars back...not more. Still, it doesn't mean I have to take it back, it just means I can. Perhaps I see beyond that 10 dollars, and I open my wallet to give you more since the money you took was to be used to put food on your family's table. As far as life goes, that's not something that an innocent person (The victim's families) should be allowed to take. It's not for them to take, just like it was not right for the offender to take the life of his victim.
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08/07/2008 01:44:51 PM · #59 |
Well the guy at the centre of this case got back to me, I will post `some` of his reply here.
From what he said he has obviously been dragged through the mill and just wants to move on, so will not join us for this discussion. Can't say I blame him.
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Dear Mark
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (stuff edited out)
I would, however, like to thank you for pointing it (he is referring to this post) out to me as it represents a more level-headed discussion that has considered the Judge's remarks and not sensationalist like some of the other ones which have been brought to my attention,
Best Wishes
Marcus |
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08/07/2008 03:04:11 PM · #60 |
WWOD?
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
WWJD?
Originally posted by kenskid:
I hear ya brother. However, get ready to be pounded by some that don't share your opinion !
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
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And so they should. I'm all for eye for an eye. What pisses me off is the fact they get to sit around for 10-20 years before they are executed wasting my tax dollars. I think they should let the family of the murdered person do the murdering of the muderer before midnight of the day of conviction. |
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08/07/2008 03:06:31 PM · #61 |
So what in your opinion would be "fair"? Would putting the offender in prison until he dies be ok?
How about solitary?
How about Prison with NOTHING TO DO...no books, no tv...no basketball....just enough calories to get by?
Just what should the punishment be? I feel that no matter what it is...someone will deem it unfair.
Originally posted by heavyj:
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
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And so they should. I'm all for eye for an eye. What pisses me off is the fact they get to sit around for 10-20 years before they are executed wasting my tax dollars. I think they should let the family of the murdered person do the murdering of the muderer before midnight of the day of sentencing. |
An eye for an eye simple means to take no more than was taken from you. You take 10 dollars from my wallet, I take 10 dollars back...not more. Still, it doesn't mean I have to take it back, it just means I can. Perhaps I see beyond that 10 dollars, and I open my wallet to give you more since the money you took was to be used to put food on your family's table. As far as life goes, that's not something that an innocent person (The victim's families) should be allowed to take. It's not for them to take, just like it was not right for the offender to take the life of his victim. |
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08/07/2008 03:17:55 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
So what do you suggest? Don't you think that the greatest legal minds have pondered this extensively? |
Yup: "It is better to risk saving a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one."
--Voltaire (1694 - 1778), Zadig
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
And who should pay for mistakes? The police, the accuser (assuming they did so unknowingly), the justice system? |
Yup. Why shouldn't they pay for their "mistakes" like everyone else?
Remember, no amount of money can compensate the innocent for the time away from their families, the loss of reputation, or the psychological damaged caused by wrongful imprisonment or prosecution.
Go lock youself in the bathroom and really try to imagine that you will be locked up in there for several years for something you didn't do. Then say with a straight face that it's "OK" in a democratic society if your dragnet sweeps up a few innocents as long as you catch some of the guilty.
Locking people up for things they *might* do is a classic symptom of totalitarianism ... |
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08/07/2008 03:25:15 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
Isn't that way court is for? That's why they have juries of their peers to determine guilt and innocence...to avoid punishing the wrong person. |
The court system makes "mistakes" too: how would you feel if any of the sixteen people who had post-conviction exonerations had been executed first? |
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08/07/2008 03:51:38 PM · #64 |
Are you a Christian? I don't know for certain, but from your vehement support for the current administration, I'd assume that you believe in, at least in some form of, the teachings of Jesus. I could be wrong about your faith, but, assuming I'm not; where in the bible does Jesus condone the killing of anyone?
Originally posted by kenskid:
WWOD?
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
WWJD?
Originally posted by kenskid:
I hear ya brother. However, get ready to be pounded by some that don't share your opinion !
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
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And so they should. I'm all for eye for an eye. What pisses me off is the fact they get to sit around for 10-20 years before they are executed wasting my tax dollars. I think they should let the family of the murdered person do the murdering of the muderer before midnight of the day of conviction. |
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Message edited by author 2008-08-07 16:03:30. |
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08/07/2008 04:26:31 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by JaimeVinas:
great I click on the link not thinking about it and the whole title has child porn in it. I hope i dont get into trouble because they think I am browsing that kind of material at work or home. :(
However, it is very clear (at least in the State of Texas) that if you photograph a child and it is arouses anyone in a sexual manner it is considered child pornography. It is always a good idea to stay away from anything that doesnt display their age in this state. I try to make them look goofy. That usually keeps me outta that territory. |
Jaime - does the fact that you have 31 pics of kids in your "Kids" portfolio worry you? It is not at all inconceivable that some or all of them could arouse someone somewhere. Heck, some folks get turned on by shoes! |
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08/07/2008 05:11:03 PM · #66 |
Edit again: Ok...I'll take this off the table b/c I know it's not in there.
Where does it say to throw someone in jail for life?
But...I'm not a big Bush fan so if you can find a post where I lost my mind then I'll racant.
Edit...
I'm waiting? Show me the verse !!!!!!!
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Are you a Christian? I don't know for certain, but from your vehement support for the current administration, I'd assume that you believe in, at least in some form of, the teachings of Jesus. I could be wrong about your faith, but, assuming I'm not; where in the bible does Jesus condone the killing of anyone?
Originally posted by kenskid:
WWOD?
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
WWJD?
Originally posted by kenskid:
I hear ya brother. However, get ready to be pounded by some that don't share your opinion !
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
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And so they should. I'm all for eye for an eye. What pisses me off is the fact they get to sit around for 10-20 years before they are executed wasting my tax dollars. I think they should let the family of the murdered person do the murdering of the muderer before midnight of the day of conviction. |
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Message edited by author 2008-08-07 17:49:38.
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08/07/2008 09:35:31 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
So what in your opinion would be "fair"? Would putting the offender in prison until he dies be ok?
How about solitary?
How about Prison with NOTHING TO DO...no books, no tv...no basketball....just enough calories to get by?
Just what should the punishment be? I feel that no matter what it is...someone will deem it unfair.
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My personal opinion is putting them in jail and making an effort to see what the impact of their crimes was/were. Prison is suppose to be for rehabilitation although it has fallen very short of that.
You will be hard pressed to find a group that doesn't support life behind bars because of rape/murder etc. If you can, please show us a link. While behind bars, it is my opinion that no matter how hard it may seem, and no matter how long it may take, it's those that forgive that move on in their lives the most quickly.
In reality, the laws of the states/provinces/countries will determine what is and isn't fair, and they mess up. If a man serves 25 years for a crime where DNA has now proven he did not commit the crime, what restitution should he be given. If he was jailed from the age of 25, he is now 50...his prime age gone for the most part. No money will give him back the mistakes we 'accepted'. I couldn't live with it, and I don't see how anyone else could.
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08/07/2008 09:47:29 PM · #68 |
There's no benefit in letting a criminal back into society. They inflict physical, emotional and financial damage on everyone else.
Rehabilitation via a prison sentence is a joke, but accepting the falsehood that prisons are in any form a means of rehabilitation, it is up to society to choose whether or not it is worth the cost of doing so. Criminals don't pay for the cost of their rehabilitation, the society they harmed through their behavior does.
If society doesn't want to foot the bill, or decides that the cost of attempting to rehabilitate a person is not worth what the rehabilitated person will give back to society upon their release, then it's the chair/needle/noose/firing squad for the criminal and that's just too bad.
There are billions of other people around who don't require the inordinate amount of time, money and attention that criminals do. There are also enough people around who could use the free housing, food and medical attention afforded to criminals but are forced to live on the street - because they don't break laws. Go figure.
Absolute determination of guilt is another argument entirely. I am a big fan of Voltaire, but his quote is ridiculous. Letting ten criminals go free because you know only nine of them are confirmed serial killers and you aren't sure about the tenth is foolishness.
So says I.
Why isn't this in rant anyway?
Message edited by author 2008-08-07 21:48:59. |
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08/07/2008 09:49:56 PM · #69 |
I don't believe in the death penalty, nor with torture, punishment, humiliation, etc. I don't believe two wrongs make a right. I don't believe killing someone for killing adds anything back into the society which was already robbed of one person, nor do I believe it truly brings closure and comfort to those who have lost that person and instead only serves to torture the murderers family and friends as well.
Everything is connected, drop a single stone into the pond and the ripples will reach the other shore. A murder cannot be undone, the only thing that remains is what those left behind choose to do now, if they will increase suffering or not.
I was going to go on a rant about my views of the legal and prison system but I think I'll save it, no one who should listen would probably give a damn when there are those that still support death row.
We truly are still nothing more than infants with rocks to throw at each other... |
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08/07/2008 10:11:58 PM · #70 |
No matter what you think about the "system" one thing is for sure:
This child rapist scum will never put his rotten hand on another young girl.
I know...I know what you're going to say..."well putting him to death did not bring back the girl"...
But I say again....This child rapist scum will never put his rotten hand on another young girl.
Originally posted by togtog:
I don't believe in the death penalty, nor with torture, punishment, humiliation, etc. I don't believe two wrongs make a right. I don't believe killing someone for killing adds anything back into the society which was already robbed of one person, nor do I believe it truly brings closure and comfort to those who have lost that person and instead only serves to torture the murderers family and friends as well.
Everything is connected, drop a single stone into the pond and the ripples will reach the other shore. A murder cannot be undone, the only thing that remains is what those left behind choose to do now, if they will increase suffering or not.
I was going to go on a rant about my views of the legal and prison system but I think I'll save it, no one who should listen would probably give a damn when there are those that still support death row.
We truly are still nothing more than infants with rocks to throw at each other... |
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08/07/2008 11:26:59 PM · #71 |
This is really kind of funny. You are all damning the courts and singing the praises of this photographer as if he was wronged somehow. The fact is that none of you saw the images in question. If they were simply innocent portraits of two young girls then there would not be any issue and the case would have been thrown out. If I had to guess I suspect that the images in question were somewhat more suggestive than your average portrait. Based on the images presented on the guys web site I find some of the poses and work to be mildly suggestive and in some cases slightly sexual in nature. even though it was all perfectly innocent taking certain types of photos of young girls is just not a good business no matter who is involved.(the fact that the parents are present does not immediately rule out inpropriety, you think all the child porn out there was generated by strangers???) this is a pointless argument, The guy did a super stupid and got slapped, Hard for it, and next time he will think twice about shooting little girls in suggestive poses.
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08/07/2008 11:44:22 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
No matter what you think about the "system" one thing is for sure:
This child rapist scum will never put his rotten hand on another young girl.
I know...I know what you're going to say..."well putting him to death did not bring back the girl"...
But I say again....This child rapist scum will never put his rotten hand on another young girl.
Originally posted by togtog:
I don't believe in the death penalty, nor with torture, punishment, humiliation, etc. I don't believe two wrongs make a right. I don't believe killing someone for killing adds anything back into the society which was already robbed of one person, nor do I believe it truly brings closure and comfort to those who have lost that person and instead only serves to torture the murderers family and friends as well.
Everything is connected, drop a single stone into the pond and the ripples will reach the other shore. A murder cannot be undone, the only thing that remains is what those left behind choose to do now, if they will increase suffering or not.
I was going to go on a rant about my views of the legal and prison system but I think I'll save it, no one who should listen would probably give a damn when there are those that still support death row.
We truly are still nothing more than infants with rocks to throw at each other... |
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He wouldn't with life in prison either, or life confined to a house or apartment. I probably see things differently than a lot of people, maybe most. I don't see humans and monsters, I can only see humans, humans screwed up to some degree or another but humans nonetheless and all the same.
I believe as prisons terms are now, especially those ending in the death penalty, to be discarding human life, and needlessly at that. Nothing more than a trash pile for the part of humanity humanity wishes it could forget.
It is one thing when a police officer is forced to draw his gun to protect the innocent but it is an entirely different matter to have someone captured and say, hey, we are going to kill you anyway, just for fun.
Are you just getting back at the criminal? Why? What point does it serve except to make sadistic prison guards drool with glee?
To directly address your link, I know that in many countries, and states in America, the rape of a child is an automatic life-sentence, some states here assign the death penalty to it. With the exception of torture (which some can fairly argue many prisons as being) what greater penalty or discouragement could be given to the would be criminal?
So given they have nothing else to lose, there is no risk to taking the lives of their victims as well, they are already screwed if caught and less witnesses means less risk. The whole system is counter productive and assumes that criminals are too dumb to figure that detail out.
And what of the areas where life in prison or the death penalty are, people still commit crime, horrible horrible crimes, and all the more horrible trying to keep from getting caught.
Again to address your link, I do not know how it is in other parts of the world but in America such potential child molesters cannot seek help safely, if they visit anyone about it, including shrinks and priests, they have to be turned in as potential threats and may go to jail if a shrink says they might be a threat at some point in the future.
So either they can turn themselves in and go to jail, bottle it up for a while, slip up and molest a child and go to jail, or they can bottle it up for a long time until they burst and fearing what they have just done kill the child and try to hide, and probably end up in jail. or they can kill themselves and have no one feel thankful or even understand why, if they explain why, people will just cheer.
The point isn't that they are not a serious threat that need to be contained but that the way the world goes about trying to fix its social problems is laughable at best and downright monstrous at worst.
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08/08/2008 01:00:27 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remember, no amount of money can compensate the innocent for the time away from their families, the loss of reputation, or the psychological damaged caused by wrongful imprisonment or prosecution.
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No truer statement has been made, I think, so far.
I have a dear friend that was arrested, convicted and imprisoned for murder. (The headline describing the trial was "Eenie, Meenie, Minie MO" which is pretty much describes how the DA decided who to prosecute).
She served around 15 years.
During that time, some "stuff" happened
The end result -- she pled guilty to a crime that she only had to serve 5 years for (obviously done), and was released.
She isn't bitter about her years behind bars, amazingly enough, but she still is suffering from it.
She panics when she hears jail doors slamming (like in a movie) or sees pictures of the inside of a prison.
She still has moments when she wonders when she is going to be locked up again.
She has been refused jobs.
She said it was about 8 years after being released before she felt she could walk down the street, or be out of her house, without fear.
She had a young daughter at the time of lock up. Her daughter grew up believing her mother was a murderer and subsequently, wanted nothing to do with her until a few years ago, when they reconciled.
Her story, and hers alone, has made me revisit my thoughts and views on capital punishment and the justice system.
Donna's story
more here |
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08/08/2008 01:04:07 AM · #74 |
| so even thoguht the judge thought the guy wasn't being nasty about this, how come he's still getting in troucle for it? i dont get it |
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08/08/2008 01:55:39 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by togtog:
To directly address your link, I know that in many countries, and states in America, the rape of a child is an automatic life-sentence, some states here assign the death penalty to it. |
Not any more, per a recent Supreme Court decision ... |
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