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08/07/2008 09:22:01 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
So, I guess you've never made a mistake in your job? Maybe would should abandon the all laws in case a mistake might be made. Maybe, instead...you should take a moment and head down to your nearest court center or abuse center and see the affects of abuse up close and personal. Instead of sitting in your comfy home and gazing into your computer screen. I worked as a Social Worker in Milwaukee. I worked with both the victims and the offenders. I have seen both sides of the story...first at Milwaukee Co. Children's Court Center District Attorney's Office in the victim/witness unit. And then at a group home facility with court ordered juvenile delinquents and gang members.
Once again, it comes down to art being subjective...what one fines acceptable another may not. |
So are you saying you can live the "occasion they get it wrong" if it's you or your kid or spouse? If a women robs a bank and has a camera like yours around her neck and looks somewhat like you and you get charged and sentenced for it, you can sit back in your jail cell and say "it's OK. I'm alright with the occasion they get it wrong. Everybody makes mistakes." |
Of course, no one wants that to happen. But it does. What are you suggesting...we abandon all laws? Cause, jeez, law inforcement could make a mistake? The law of Probability tells us that there is the likelihood that something like this will happen. And what is the probability that someone guilty gets off scott free? Or gets out on a technicality. The laws apply to everyone...you would want those same laws to protect you. |
I'm sorry, but the error should be %100 on the side of letting the guilty go free and not on the side of punishing the innocent. Saying that it's OK to destroy a few innocent lives to insure that all of the guilty get punished is disgusting. How would you feel if you loved one locked away in prison for something they didn't do? Could you really just sit by and say, "It's OK as long as they get the bad guys too." WTF?? |
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08/07/2008 09:25:42 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
Of course, no one wants that to happen. But it does. What are you suggesting...we abandon all laws? Cause, jeez, law inforcement could make a mistake? The law of Probability tells us that there is the likelihood that something like this will happen. And what is the probability that someone guilty gets off scott free? Or gets out on a technicality. The laws apply to everyone...you would want those same laws to protect you. |
Yes, law enforcement can make mistakes, but one would expect a certain degree of common-sense to be applied when using the laws to prosecute people.
It does happen, but it shouldn't, just shrugging it off and saying "shit happens" is cold comfort to the innocent party involved whose life has been torn apart.
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08/07/2008 09:28:17 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
So, I guess you've never made a mistake in your job? Maybe would should abandon the all laws in case a mistake might be made. Maybe, instead...you should take a moment and head down to your nearest court center or abuse center and see the affects of abuse up close and personal. Instead of sitting in your comfy home and gazing into your computer screen. I worked as a Social Worker in Milwaukee. I worked with both the victims and the offenders. I have seen both sides of the story...first at Milwaukee Co. Children's Court Center District Attorney's Office in the victim/witness unit. And then at a group home facility with court ordered juvenile delinquents and gang members.
Once again, it comes down to art being subjective...what one fines acceptable another may not. |
He never suggested abandoning all the laws, nor never having never made a mistake. I also don't think he's talking about making it easy for offenders. Mistakes are made, but the innocent shouldn't have to pay for them. Not a child, not an innocent photographer. It's not acceptable that people start pointing fingers at innocent people because of a hunch, or suspicion, that will end up costing that person to lose more than a job, but perhaps his/her life. When you start giving up your rights to make it harder for criminals to commit crimes, you're just imprisoning yourself. |
So what do you suggest? Don't you think that the greatest legal minds have pondered this extensively? There is no easy answer. The balance for individual rights versus those of the victims is a hard one to do. And who should pay for mistakes? The police, the accuser (assuming they did so unknowingly), the justice system?
No one is saying it's acceptable to accuse innocent people...that's just wrong and illegal if done knowingly. |
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08/07/2008 09:31:39 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by eing12:
I've just read this article and I sometimes wonder if common sense is soon going to be illegal as well:
article...
Has anyone seen the film Idiocracy? It's looking more like a documentary every day |
You mean the common sense of the prosecutor being illegal?
Come on... |
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08/07/2008 09:37:30 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
So, I guess you've never made a mistake in your job? Maybe would should abandon the all laws in case a mistake might be made. Maybe, instead...you should take a moment and head down to your nearest court center or abuse center and see the affects of abuse up close and personal. Instead of sitting in your comfy home and gazing into your computer screen. I worked as a Social Worker in Milwaukee. I worked with both the victims and the offenders. I have seen both sides of the story...first at Milwaukee Co. Children's Court Center District Attorney's Office in the victim/witness unit. And then at a group home facility with court ordered juvenile delinquents and gang members.
Once again, it comes down to art being subjective...what one fines acceptable another may not. |
So are you saying you can live the "occasion they get it wrong" if it's you or your kid or spouse? If a women robs a bank and has a camera like yours around her neck and looks somewhat like you and you get charged and sentenced for it, you can sit back in your jail cell and say "it's OK. I'm alright with the occasion they get it wrong. Everybody makes mistakes." |
Of course, no one wants that to happen. But it does. What are you suggesting...we abandon all laws? Cause, jeez, law inforcement could make a mistake? The law of Probability tells us that there is the likelihood that something like this will happen. And what is the probability that someone guilty gets off scott free? Or gets out on a technicality. The laws apply to everyone...you would want those same laws to protect you. |
I'm sorry, but the error should be %100 on the side of letting the guilty go free and not on the side of punishing the innocent. Saying that it's OK to destroy a few innocent lives to insure that all of the guilty get punished is disgusting. How would you feel if you loved one locked away in prison for something they didn't do? Could you really just sit by and say, "It's OK as long as they get the bad guys too." WTF?? |
Isn't that way court is for? That's why they have juries of their peers to determine guilt and innocence...to avoid punishing the wrong person.
Message edited by author 2008-08-07 09:39:50. |
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08/07/2008 09:46:58 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
So what do you suggest? Don't you think that the greatest legal minds have pondered this extensively? There is no easy answer. The balance for individual rights versus those of the victims is a hard one to do. And who should pay for mistakes? The police, the accuser (assuming they did so unknowingly), the justice system?
No one is saying it's acceptable to accuse innocent people...that's just wrong and illegal if done knowingly. |
I suggest common sense. I suggest that you don't accept that these things will happen, but it's OK since some of them will be guilty. There is no balance for individuals and victims, their rights are equal.
Mistakes should be paid for by those that accuse and seek to take the matter further. If someone pointed a finger at me and said "He did something bad." and I paid for it with my business, my marriage, my livelihood, and then found innocent, damn right someone has to pay for THAT mistake and not brush it off as "Well, shit happens."
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08/07/2008 09:47:35 AM · #32 |
Anybody here see the movie/documentary called Ganja Queen? Long story short, a lady from Queensland, Australia got caught with 10 lbs. of weed in a boogie board bag. Drug smuggling/dealing in Indonesia carries an automatic death sentence by firing squad. She has repeatedly proclaimed her innocence but was found guilty and will spend 20 years in an Indonesian prison. I think one of her family members is quilty and letting her take the fall for it.
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08/07/2008 09:48:33 AM · #33 |
Well, I have tried something we have never tried before and I have emailed Marcus (the guy in question) to see if he would like to join in the discussion.
It may be a chance for us to hear the whole story without the bias of the `popular press`.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.. Lets hope he comes in and put his points across.
Message edited by author 2008-08-07 09:49:31. |
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08/07/2008 09:49:09 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
I think one of her family members is quilty and letting her take the fall for it. |
based on what evidence? |
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08/07/2008 09:54:03 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by heavyj:
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
So what do you suggest? Don't you think that the greatest legal minds have pondered this extensively? There is no easy answer. The balance for individual rights versus those of the victims is a hard one to do. And who should pay for mistakes? The police, the accuser (assuming they did so unknowingly), the justice system?
No one is saying it's acceptable to accuse innocent people...that's just wrong and illegal if done knowingly. |
I suggest common sense. I suggest that you don't accept that these things will happen, but it's OK since some of them will be guilty. There is no balance for individuals and victims, their rights are equal.
Mistakes should be paid for by those that accuse and seek to take the matter further. If someone pointed a finger at me and said "He did something bad." and I paid for it with my business, my marriage, my livelihood, and then found innocent, damn right someone has to pay for THAT mistake and not brush it off as "Well, shit happens." |
Who's common sense? I hope not yours, cause you basically advocate for vengence? Even though it may have been an honest mistake?
The reason the laws are written so explicitly so we don't have to rely on any one person's "common sense".
Message edited by author 2008-08-07 09:55:11. |
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08/07/2008 09:54:42 AM · #36 |
| Thank you for a lively conversation...but, I am off to go camping for the weekend! Everyone have a great weekend! |
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08/07/2008 09:57:04 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
I think one of her family members is quilty and letting her take the fall for it. |
based on what evidence? |
That's just my opinion after watching the show.
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08/07/2008 09:57:47 AM · #38 |
The internet archive is great for sites that get taken down!
//web.archive.org/web/20070105164417///www.fairydreams.co.uk/
And remember once it's on the net it's hard (or impossible) to remove.
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08/07/2008 10:04:31 AM · #39 |
Ironically from his website..
"Fairy Transformations. Turn yourself, a friend or loved one into a beautiful and elegant fairy (minimum age of 7 for the fairy and styles will be age appropriate)."
So it was pretty clear from the off his intentions were completely innocent (which we already assumed anyway)..
jfredin - wow, cool site, they must have some serious storage space!!
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08/07/2008 10:11:15 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
So, I guess you've never made a mistake in your job? Maybe would should abandon the all laws in case a mistake might be made. Maybe, instead...you should take a moment and head down to your nearest court center or abuse center and see the affects of abuse up close and personal. Instead of sitting in your comfy home and gazing into your computer screen. I worked as a Social Worker in Milwaukee. I worked with both the victims and the offenders. I have seen both sides of the story...first at Milwaukee Co. Children's Court Center District Attorney's Office in the victim/witness unit. And then at a group home facility with court ordered juvenile delinquents and gang members.
Once again, it comes down to art being subjective...what one fines acceptable another may not. |
So are you saying you can live the "occasion they get it wrong" if it's you or your kid or spouse? If a women robs a bank and has a camera like yours around her neck and looks somewhat like you and you get charged and sentenced for it, you can sit back in your jail cell and say "it's OK. I'm alright with the occasion they get it wrong. Everybody makes mistakes." |
Of course, no one wants that to happen. But it does. What are you suggesting...we abandon all laws? Cause, jeez, law inforcement could make a mistake? The law of Probability tells us that there is the likelihood that something like this will happen. And what is the probability that someone guilty gets off scott free? Or gets out on a technicality. The laws apply to everyone...you would want those same laws to protect you. |
I'm sorry, but the error should be %100 on the side of letting the guilty go free and not on the side of punishing the innocent. Saying that it's OK to destroy a few innocent lives to insure that all of the guilty get punished is disgusting. How would you feel if you loved one locked away in prison for something they didn't do? Could you really just sit by and say, "It's OK as long as they get the bad guys too." WTF?? |
Isn't that way court is for? That's why they have juries of their peers to determine guilt and innocence...to avoid punishing the wrong person. |
In this case, the guy was punished.
Look at what happened to Stephen Hatfill, the scientist who was publicly defined by US AG John Ashcroft as a "person of interest" in the Anthrax Mailing case. He was never charged, never tried and eventually cleared. His career, reputation (personal and professional) and the rest of his life was ruined. Sure, he recently won a settlement for $6million from the Federal Gov't, but I bet if you asked him, he'd say the payout wasn't worth the Hell of having his life ruined that way.
Message edited by author 2008-08-07 10:11:57. |
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08/07/2008 10:17:23 AM · #41 |
From Flickr description: "Each one of those 1U red boxes contains 4 750GB HDs. Each one of those racks has 40 of those red petaboxes. Each of those racks adds up to 120 terabytes. Those boxes power the Internet Archive (archive.org). 3 PETAbytes (3,000,000GB) of low power, compact storage from Capricorn Technologies. It's geek pr0n. But it's really cool to see in person."
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08/07/2008 10:31:43 AM · #42 |
Let's say that in your life you were going to be arrested for a crime that you did not commit. Let's say there is some evidence there....enough to get a grand jury to hold you for trial.
Name your top three countries you would want this to happen in. (Obviously...the top three countries that you feel you would have the FAIREST possible trial).
While we're at it...name the top three you would have the hardest time getting a fair trial. |
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08/07/2008 10:35:44 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
Here's some startling statistics:
-1 in 5 girls and 1 in 10 boys will be sexually victimized before adulthood.
-1 in 3 sexual assault victims is under the age of 12.
[Federal Bureau of Investigations Statistics 1999.] |
And you really need to post URLs when presenting stats such as these. |
Statistics for those that are curious. Sensitive subject, but one that needs to be spoken about,
isn't it weird how only 6% will ever serve a day in jail? This does nothing but piss me off
Message edited by author 2008-08-07 10:36:30. |
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08/07/2008 10:44:22 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
Who's common sense? I hope not yours, cause you basically advocate for vengence? Even though it may have been an honest mistake?
The reason the laws are written so explicitly so we don't have to rely on any one person's "common sense". |
I don't see at any point where I advocate vengeance. If someone wrongs you, you are entitled to compensation. If someone takes 10 bucks from me, I can take 10 bucks back. Unfortunately, when someone ruins my life due to a 'mistake' that should've been more carefully looked at, I don't have a means of getting that life back.
The laws are written, but must be applied with common sense. You don't put a man through hell because you have a hunch.
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08/07/2008 10:53:24 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Let's say that in your life you were going to be arrested for a crime that you did not commit. Let's say there is some evidence there....enough to get a grand jury to hold you for trial.
Name your top three countries you would want this to happen in. (Obviously...the top three countries that you feel you would have the FAIREST possible trial).
While we're at it...name the top three you would have the hardest time getting a fair trial. |
What's your point?
That even the fairest of judicial systems is going to make some mistakes and ruin some innocent lives, but that's OK because the system is fair most of the time? |
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08/07/2008 10:59:00 AM · #46 |
Nope...just wanted to get opinions. DPC has many people from many different countries. I just want to see what the top 3 and the bottom 3 were.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Let's say that in your life you were going to be arrested for a crime that you did not commit. Let's say there is some evidence there....enough to get a grand jury to hold you for trial.
Name your top three countries you would want this to happen in. (Obviously...the top three countries that you feel you would have the FAIREST possible trial).
While we're at it...name the top three you would have the hardest time getting a fair trial. |
What's your point?
That even the fairest of judicial systems is going to make some mistakes and ruin some innocent lives, but that's OK because the system is fair most of the time? |
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08/07/2008 11:00:33 AM · #47 |
Not to hijack but I went to archive.org. Check out the first DPC page.
Originally posted by jfredin:
From Flickr description: "Each one of those 1U red boxes contains 4 750GB HDs. Each one of those racks has 40 of those red petaboxes. Each of those racks adds up to 120 terabytes. Those boxes power the Internet Archive (archive.org). 3 PETAbytes (3,000,000GB) of low power, compact storage from Capricorn Technologies. It's geek pr0n. But it's really cool to see in person." |
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08/07/2008 11:09:18 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Nope...just wanted to get opinions. DPC has many people from many different countries. I just want to see what the top 3 and the bottom 3 were.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Let's say that in your life you were going to be arrested for a crime that you did not commit. Let's say there is some evidence there....enough to get a grand jury to hold you for trial.
Name your top three countries you would want this to happen in. (Obviously...the top three countries that you feel you would have the FAIREST possible trial).
While we're at it...name the top three you would have the hardest time getting a fair trial. |
What's your point?
That even the fairest of judicial systems is going to make some mistakes and ruin some innocent lives, but that's OK because the system is fair most of the time? |
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It would depend on the crime, I suppose and other circumstances. If it was a 1st deg Murder, the US would not be on my top list. |
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08/07/2008 11:13:45 AM · #49 |
So US in your bottom three. How about your top three?
Edit: Why not for 1st degree murder? Because you wouldn't get a fair trial OR because you would get the NEEDLE if convicted?
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Nope...just wanted to get opinions. DPC has many people from many different countries. I just want to see what the top 3 and the bottom 3 were.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Let's say that in your life you were going to be arrested for a crime that you did not commit. Let's say there is some evidence there....enough to get a grand jury to hold you for trial.
Name your top three countries you would want this to happen in. (Obviously...the top three countries that you feel you would have the FAIREST possible trial).
While we're at it...name the top three you would have the hardest time getting a fair trial. |
What's your point?
That even the fairest of judicial systems is going to make some mistakes and ruin some innocent lives, but that's OK because the system is fair most of the time? |
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It would depend on the crime, I suppose and other circumstances. If it was a 1st deg Murder, the US would not be on my top list. |
Message edited by author 2008-08-07 11:19:07. |
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08/07/2008 11:22:10 AM · #50 |
Yes, because, unlike more civilized countries, the US murders its murderers.
Originally posted by kenskid:
So US in your bottom three. How about your top three?
Edit: Why not for 1st degree murder? Because you wouldn't get a fair trial OR because you would get the NEEDLE if convicted?
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Nope...just wanted to get opinions. DPC has many people from many different countries. I just want to see what the top 3 and the bottom 3 were.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Let's say that in your life you were going to be arrested for a crime that you did not commit. Let's say there is some evidence there....enough to get a grand jury to hold you for trial.
Name your top three countries you would want this to happen in. (Obviously...the top three countries that you feel you would have the FAIREST possible trial).
While we're at it...name the top three you would have the hardest time getting a fair trial. |
What's your point?
That even the fairest of judicial systems is going to make some mistakes and ruin some innocent lives, but that's OK because the system is fair most of the time? |
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It would depend on the crime, I suppose and other circumstances. If it was a 1st deg Murder, the US would not be on my top list. |
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