Quoting from the Bible - DPChallenge Forums

07/28/2008 02:30:48 PM · #101

And Shannon...seems to me that "more often than not, the opposite is true" is just as much of a wild-ass statement as mine was before I modified it. Do you have ANY statistics to support that, or is that just what you "think" is true?

I personally could say I know more Christians who find that the more they read the Bible, the more they believe it, and the closer they walk with God.

Do you honestly say you know of more people in general who become convinced that it's not true, and turn their backs on God, the more they read of the Bible?

07/28/2008 02:43:42 PM · #102

Originally posted by farfel53:

Do you honestly say you know of more people in general who become convinced that it's not true, and turn their backs on God, the more they read of the Bible?

I say so. There's an entire body of study devoted to debunking the claims of the supernatural (and other excesses) in the bible.

Incidentally, infusing your question with drama -- "turn their backs on God" -- is merely a device, as I'm sure you know that the position here is that there's no god to which one can turn one's back.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/28/2008 02:46:34 PM · #103

Originally posted by farfel53:

And Shannon...seems to me that "more often than not, the opposite is true" is just as much of a wild-ass statement as mine was before I modified it. Do you have ANY statistics to support that...?

Yup- how many would you like? This commentary from the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary should suffice:

Americans revere the Bibleâ��but, by and large, they donâ��t read it. And because they donâ��t read it, they have become a nation of biblical illiterates.

Fewer than half of all adults can name the four gospels. Many Christians cannot identify more than two or three of the disciples. According to data from the Barna Research Group, 60 percent of Americans canâ��t name even five of the Ten Commandments.

Some of the statistics are enough to perplex even those aware of the problem. A Barna poll indicated that at least 12 percent of adults believe that Joan of Arc was Noahâ��s wife. Another survey of graduating high school seniors revealed that over 50 percent thought that Sodom and Gomorrah were husband and wife. A considerable number of respondents to one poll indicated that the Sermon on the Mount was preached by Billy Graham.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

07/28/2008 02:53:01 PM · #104

Originally posted by Louis:

Incidentally, infusing your question with drama -- "turn their backs on God" -- is merely a device, as I'm sure you know that the position here is that there's no god to which one can turn one's back.

Besides, if God did exist as an omnipresence as per Christian theology, no matter which way you turn you'd still be face-to-face ...

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/28/2008 02:56:45 PM · #105

Originally posted by scalvert:

A Barna poll indicated that at least 12 percent of adults believe that Joan of Arc was Noahâ��s wife.

:-D

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

07/28/2008 02:59:58 PM · #106

Originally posted by farfel53:

Do you honestly say you know of more people in general who become convinced that it's not true, and turn their backs on God, the more they read of the Bible?

Reading the bible and believing in God are two separate things. God and belief in God are not tied to the bible. Just ask Hindus, Muslims, and a lot of other religions. Christianity, which I think you are backing, requires belief in Jesus as a savior, above and beyond a belief in God. Not believing in the historical reliability of the bible does not mean one has turned their back on God and belief in God is not related to a belief in Jesus as a savior.

I have read the Bible. I believe it is as true as the Iliad. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with my belief or disbelief in God.

trevytrev

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

07/28/2008 03:03:53 PM · #107

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by scalvert:
A Barna poll indicated that at least 12 percent of adults believe that Joan of Arc was Noahâ��s wife.

:-D

She's not?

07/28/2008 03:03:54 PM · #108

So one says pointing out the "errors" of the Bible proves that most people turn away once they know the "truth." And the other says that because Christians are ignorant, and the leaders of the church admit it, that that supports "more often than not" they turn away when they learn the truth by reading more of the Bible. Again, I'm not seeing the reasoning, guys.

And Louis, is it official "here" "position" that there is no God to turn ones back on? Is it required of me and others to accept that position in order to be officially "here"? If I accepted that there is no god, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. And if you maintain there is no god, why are you even concerned enough to be here? Just to make fools of us poor believing prison-dwellers? Is it only intellectual stimulation you're getting here, or are you evangelizing the ignorant?

ETA - GeneralE - HaHa!

Message edited by author 2008-07-28 15:05:42.

07/28/2008 03:06:39 PM · #109

I see no reason to respond to what is obvious hostile baiting, but I will point out that the position I referred to was quite obviously mine and a few others, and not yours.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

07/28/2008 03:08:47 PM · #110

I respond to YOUR hostile baiting. Just answer the question, if there is NO god in your official point of view, why are you even here?

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

07/28/2008 03:11:36 PM · #111

Originally posted by farfel53:

. Is it only intellectual stimulation you're getting here, or are you evangelizing the ignorant?

You truly must NOT have read any of the comments penned by Louis if you believe he would ever get involved in as you say: "evangelizing the ignorant".

Surely you can engage in point/counterpoint exchange without attacking the purpose of your opponents.

Ray

07/28/2008 03:17:51 PM · #112

Originally posted by farfel53:

I respond to YOUR hostile baiting. Just answer the question, if there is NO god in your official point of view, why are you even here?

Your forgot your "Peace" signature. :-/

You seem intent on turning what started as an historical examination of ancient biblical texts into a religious rant. The OP had nothing to do with "turning away" anybody.

07/28/2008 03:20:36 PM · #113

Ray, I appreciate your desire to keep it civil. I'm just trying to get to the heart of the matter, same as everybody else. Nobody seems to care when Christians are insulted or their integrity or intelligence is challenged. I see no difficulty in challenging an atheist to just tell the truth. I see no difficulty in asking hard questions. I don't see how that question is an "attack", merely a call for analysis.

Peace...

Message edited by author 2008-07-28 15:21:24.

07/28/2008 03:22:40 PM · #114

Originally posted by farfel53:

I respond to YOUR hostile baiting. Just answer the question, if there is NO god in your official point of view, why are you even here?

I'm sorry you confuse collected discussion with hostile baiting (as handily as you confuse discussing your argument with discussing your character). And sorry, but I don't respond to overbearing calls to the carpet, though maybe you could point out that "Believers Only" sign that's surely hanging somewhere in this thread.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/28/2008 03:30:56 PM · #115

And on THAT note, I will bow out. Y'all have fun.

BTW, boys. You still haven't really answered any of MY questions.

Message edited by author 2008-07-28 15:33:20.

Sam94720

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

07/28/2008 03:32:30 PM · #116

Originally posted by scalvert:

[...]

Fewer than half of all adults can name the four gospels. Many Christians cannot identify more than two or three of the disciples. According to data from the Barna Research Group, 60 percent of Americans canâ��t name even five of the Ten Commandments.

Some of the statistics are enough to perplex even those aware of the problem. A Barna poll indicated that at least 12 percent of adults believe that Joan of Arc was Noahâ��s wife. Another survey of graduating high school seniors revealed that over 50 percent thought that Sodom and Gomorrah were husband and wife. A considerable number of respondents to one poll indicated that the Sermon on the Mount was preached by Billy Graham.[/i]

I've read quite a few studies with similar results. And they baffle me.

If you consider yourself a Christian, I assume you believe that a God exists who created the universe, is omnipotent and omniscient and who wrote a book telling us how he would like us to lead our lives. If you are a Christian, you believe that depending on whether you follow the commandments of this god, you will spend eternity either in a happy, comfy place called Heaven or in a painful, unpleasant place called Hell. If you really believe all of this, wouldn't you read the whole Bible very, very carefully to make sure you don't screw this up? Eternity is quite a long time...

Surprisingly, many people claim to believe all the things listed above devoutly, but they only have vague knowledge of the Bible. I find this very confusing and could only try to explain it with a weird mixture of wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Well, I'd have something to say about pretty much all the arguments being made here, but I don't like where this discussion is going.

farfel53, why don't you start another thread where those interested can discuss the existence of God, the intentions of forum participants and the relative merits of exclamation marks vs. asterisks? ;-) No seriously, can we please get back to the actual topic? The Bible has a fascinating history. And I was surprised to learn that one of my favorite stories (the "he who is without sin shall throw the first stone" one) was added centuries later under mysterious circumstances!

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

07/28/2008 03:37:49 PM · #117

Originally posted by farfel53:

You still haven't really answered any of MY questions.

Fascinating.

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

07/28/2008 03:41:56 PM · #118

I have been following this thread for days and wanted to jump in several time but deleted my post before submitting it. Why, maybe it was not the right time to post or I didnâ��t have the right words to say.

As I type this I Pray to God that he gives me the words and the right timing so I donâ��t delete this before I can post. I find myself needing to say the right words for what comes out of my mouth could benefit someone or hinder someone; the latter is no option.

I am ashamed to say this but personally I feel a lot of non-believers have read the Bible, maybe more than believers. But most non-believers read the Bible to try to disprove it instead of searching for understanding; there is a big difference in the two. If your reading the Bible to seek then you shall find understanding, but if you read the Bible in attempts to try to disprove it; that will do in your own heart.

My belief is that the Word of God, the Bible, was written by men that was given divine understand by God to put His word on paper for all to use as guidance in how to live our lives here on earth and to give us the understanding that there is only one way to God and through His Son, Jesus Christ. I also believe when the Bible was translated; again the scholars were given the right words so that the Bible would remain accurate.

Has there been things added and taken away from some bibles, yes. I believe this because God foreseen mans corrupt ways an knew some would try to give and take a little hear and there to try to make the bible adhere to their ways instead of them adhering to the ways of God. (REV 22:18-19)

Many may read this and wonder how can I be so confident that the Bible is true and accurate. My answer, God said so. In a word, Faith!

If you want to know how I feel about the Bible and Jesus this video will give you a sample of my Faith even though there is much more that I cannot describe.

Just remember seek and you shall find!!!

Message edited by author 2008-07-28 15:51:38.

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

07/28/2008 03:46:54 PM · #119

Originally posted by SDW:

Many may read this and wonder how can I be some confident that the Bible is true and accurate. My answer, God said so.

And where did he say this? In the bible, of course.

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

07/28/2008 03:56:30 PM · #120

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by SDW:
Many may read this and wonder how can I be some confident that the Bible is true and accurate. My answer, God said so.

And where did he say this? In the bible, of course.

One reference: REV 22:18-19

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/28/2008 03:56:38 PM · #121

Scott,
I don't doubt your belief in the trueness of the bible. But, I have a question for you. If a person follows the Muslim faith and fully believes in the Koran (or Quoran) and its truth, which of you is correct? It is necessarily true that, if the Koran is literally true than the Bible is not. Alternatively, if the Bible is literally true, the Koran is not. And what of those that hold to the truth of Tao Te Ching?

I never once read the bible with the goal of disproving it. I read the bible as a morality play if you will, a story to teach me a path I can follow in this world. As I said before, I dislike the term non-believer and unbeliever. It makes the assumption that, because one doesn't believe in the bible as historical text, one must not believe.

07/28/2008 04:01:43 PM · #122

Originally posted by SDW:

If your reading the Bible to seek then you shall find understanding, but if you read the Bible in attempts to try to disprove it; that will do in your own heart.

...or maybe the reverse. If you read the Bible to affirm existing beliefs, you may see only what you want to see, but if you try to determine and understand the actual words, you might not find reassurance...

"Ehrman became an Evangelical Christian as a teen. His desire to understand the original words of the Bible led him to the study of ancient languages and to textual criticism, to which he attributes the inspiration for an ongoing critical exploration of the basis of his own religious beliefs, which in turn gradually led to the questioning of his faith in the Bible as the inerrant, unchanging word of God."