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 11/13/2003 07:28:28 AM · #26
Originally posted by Koriyama:
This particular thread was about the 300d.

I'm going to stick to my 'less than useless' statement for the 300d. A spot meter is vital, even a 9% one is preferable.

I disagree about the 300D being 'less than useless' as well, because the 300D has the same 9%, partial spot meter that I previously referred to.

In any of the non-automatic modes on the 300D, you push the exposure-lock button to switch to partial metering. As long as you have a zoom lens mounted, it isn't difficult to fill the 9% partial spot meter circle of the viewfinder with something like a "face on stage" for a nice, accurate meter reading, even if you zoom out to compose the final shot.

Another advantage of going with Canon: it can flash sync all the way to 1/4000s with Canon-compatible E-TTL flashes. This is called FP High Speed Sync Flash. Nikon came out with a similar flash system that does the same thing, but the D100 isn't compatible with it as far as I know. The D100 is limited to 1/180 sync speed; making it tough to use fill flash outdoors. This limitation (to me) is a much bigger issue than not having a "true spot meter".

Canon's flash system also allows you to do wireless TTL (through-the-lens metering) flash. Again, Nikon came out with a similar flash system that does the same thing, but the D100 isn't compatible with it; you have to revert to a manually-metered, optically-fired slave mode when using multiple speedlights on a D100.

Plus, the Canon cameras have lower noise levels than the D100.

Message edited by author 2003-11-13 08:15:30.
 11/13/2003 09:03:30 AM · #27
Originally posted by EddyG:

Another advantage of going with Canon: it can flash sync all the way to 1/4000s with Canon-compatible E-TTL flashes. This is called FP High Speed Sync Flash. Nikon came out with a similar flash system that does the same thing, but the D100 isn't compatible with it as far as I know. The D100 is limited to 1/180 sync speed; making it tough to use fill flash outdoors.


Maybe you can help me out, I don't understand why this is a problem. Your flash duration is typically up around 1/10000s anyway. I normally use fill flash indoors at speeds around 1/60s - I guess it could be problem if you use the lens wide open ?
 11/13/2003 09:06:49 AM · #28
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by Koriyama:
This particular thread was about the 300d.

I'm going to stick to my 'less than useless' statement for the 300d. A spot meter is vital, even a 9% one is preferable.

I disagree about the 300D being 'less than useless' as well, because the 300D has the same 9%, partial spot meter that I previously referred to.



This was my original question. Thanks for answering.
 11/13/2003 09:20:03 AM · #29
Originally posted by Gordon:
I don't understand why this is a problem. Your flash duration is typically up around 1/10000s anyway. I normally use fill flash indoors at speeds around 1/60s - I guess it could be problem if you use the lens wide open ?

It sounds like in your situation, it isn't a problem.

I often shoot with flash, outdoors, at speeds well above the 1/200th sync speed of the 10D, even without a lens "wide open". Once you get much above the recommended sync speed, the focal plane shutter is never fully exposing the sensor all at one time -- only a portion is exposed before the rear curtain begins to move across. When your ultra-short duration strobe fires, the flash is now only affecting a portion of the image (since some potentially large portion of the sensor is covered by the front and rear curtains). With high-speed sync, multiple precisely-timed flash pulses are fired to ensure the entire image has the same flash exposure.
 11/13/2003 09:25:52 AM · #30
Originally posted by EddyG:

I often shoot with flash, outdoors, at speeds well above the 1/200th sync speed of the 10D, even without a lens "wide open".


Ah - I miss read - you said outdoors. So the problem really is the ambient light exposure. I get it now.
 11/13/2003 12:27:01 PM · #31
All right... you folk have me a little concerned. I am on the verge of taking the plunge and purchasing the Canon 300D Rebel, mostly because I'd never heard anything but praise for it here from the multitude who use/love it, and because the pictures I've seen come out of it are impressive. Just when I'd thought I made the decision though, I'm confronted with things like this.

I have used spot metering with my current camera, and I don't know how big of a difference not having it will make. It seems utterly daft that the people at Canon would create such a high-end camera that doesn't have the features of my lower end model. ARG!
11/13/2003 12:36:49 PM · #32
Originally posted by space amoeba:
All right... you folk have me a little concerned. I am on the verge of taking the plunge and purchasing the Canon 300D Rebel, mostly because I'd never heard anything but praise for it here from the multitude who use/love it, and because the pictures I've seen come out of it are impressive. Just when I'd thought I made the decision though, I'm confronted with things like this.


From what's gone before, it depends on what you are currently using. If you are used to a high(er) end SLR then you may well be disappointed by a lack of features, but if you're moving up from a 2MP digicam then you will probably be delighted. It's always the case that you have to look a little more closely when someone says that they like something. It's all about expectations.

Ron.
 11/13/2003 12:42:28 PM · #33
Originally posted by space amoeba:
All right... you folk have me a little concerned. I am on the verge of taking the plunge and purchasing the Canon 300D Rebel, mostly because I'd never heard anything but praise for it here from the multitude who use/love it, and because the pictures I've seen come out of it are impressive. Just when I'd thought I made the decision though, I'm confronted with things like this.

I have used spot metering with my current camera, and I don't know how big of a difference not having it will make. It seems utterly daft that the people at Canon would create such a high-end camera that doesn't have the features of my lower end model. ARG!


The spot metering question should really be the last of your concerns. As posted above, the 300D shares the 9% "partial" spot metering of the 10D. I have personally had NO trouble with this, it provides quite acceptable "spot" metering performance, as I rarely want to meter on something very much smaller than the metering circle, and I find that metering something as small as half the diameter of the metering circle gives good results. That's equivalent to just over 2% of the frame area.
If you're technically sophisticated enough to appreciate the nuances of spot meter functionality, there multiple other differences you should look at between the 300D and 10D. For technically advanced users, the 10D may be the better choice, despite the higher price.
I strongly encourage looking over the 300D review at dpreview.com, it contains great info comparing the feature set of the 10D and 300D.
 11/13/2003 12:52:48 PM · #34
Thanks for replying to me kirbic...

Admittedly, I'm just now breaking into more than point and shoot, and I wanted a 'next level' type camera. An loved the 300D because it is everything like my old Nikon FM2 from the film days. I don't believe that I'm yet talented enough to finangle about minute neuances. I was, however, concerned that I may take pictures that are lacking if I didn't have the same tools at my disposal. It seems to me that 9% could be more than enough for my needs once I learn how to use it porperly. While I'd love the 10D, it's a significant price hike, and there's no lens in the deal, so I couldn't pull that off.

Thanks again for your thoughts... it means a lot to be reassured. :)
 11/13/2003 01:29:42 PM · #35
there is no BW mode on the 300D

what bugs me about the metering - is only a certain metering style is used in different shooting modes - and i think all three options should be available in the fully manual mode i tend to use 90% of the time

one of the meter modes uses only 9% of the center of the screen, but it is not available in manual mode - not that i can figure out anyhow...

overall i am happy with it.

soup
 11/13/2003 02:52:49 PM · #36
Originally posted by space amoeba:

It seems utterly daft that the people at Canon would create such a high-end camera that doesn't have the features of my lower end model. ARG!


It does - but it isn't a high end camera - its entry level as far as Canon DSLRs are considered. They have to omit lots of sensible features, to leave space for their mid-tier cameras like the 10D.
The 300D looks like a great camera in its class and certainly set a new standard for price - though that comes at a cost:

Obvious omissions/ cost cutting features on the 300D
- no mirror lock up (fine if you never need to use big glass or do fine macro work - which isn't the target market for something like a digital rebel anyway)
- cheap build/ plastic body (again the 300D isn't supposed to be a rugged, weather-sealed professional device - so a sensible compromise)
- simplified external interfaces (e.g., only the simple remote works - again correct for the target market)
- weird restrictions on AF mode / meter mode selection - no idea why they did this - frankly it seems weird to limit which meter mode you can use by which shooting mode you are in
- lack of custom functions - nice to have, but not really required, great for really getting a responsive camera but could be ignored on a low end camera like the rebel
- no control of internal flash output power - seems a weird restriction, makes it difficult, if not impossible to use the on board flash for subtle fill - not sure why they did this either

But other than these, it looks like a great deal and has equal picture taking quality with the 10D

Message edited by author 2003-11-13 14:59:47.
 11/13/2003 03:06:06 PM · #37
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by space amoeba:

It seems utterly daft that the people at Canon would create such a high-end camera that doesn't have the features of my lower end model. ARG!


It does - but it isn't a high end camera - its entry level as far as Canon DSLRs are considered. They have to omit lots of sensible features, to leave space for their mid-tier cameras like the 10D.


Hee hee... you're right. It's hard for me to think of anything I'm about to drop 1600 CDN on as "low end" though. :)

Well, from what you and kirbic have kindly offered, I don't think I'll miss many of the features that the 10D has that have been omitted from the Rebel. I'm only now breaking in to the "high end" market, and if I continue on my curve, I can someday pick up a better body. The plus is, all the lenses should work on anything Canon from here on in.

From what I can tell, I won't be sorry... at least, I HOPE not. ;)

Thanks for your thoughts....

m.
11/13/2003 03:11:36 PM · #38
Originally posted by FullyFocused:
Does the Canon Digital Rebel 300D have Black and White mode BUILT into the camera or do you have to edit it in a software program to get that? I just bought it tonight and can't find the modes


To answer this question without getting into the tangle the rest of the thread has become... No... It does NOT have a built in B&W setting.
 11/13/2003 08:19:54 PM · #39
Originally posted by space amoeba:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by space amoeba:

It seems utterly daft that the people at Canon would create such a high-end camera that doesn't have the features of my lower end model. ARG!


It does - but it isn't a high end camera - its entry level as far as Canon DSLRs are considered. They have to omit lots of sensible features, to leave space for their mid-tier cameras like the 10D.


Hee hee... you're right. It's hard for me to think of anything I'm about to drop 1600 CDN on as "low end" though. :)

Well, from what you and kirbic have kindly offered, I don't think I'll miss many of the features that the 10D has that have been omitted from the Rebel. I'm only now breaking in to the "high end" market, and if I continue on my curve, I can someday pick up a better body. The plus is, all the lenses should work on anything Canon from here on in.

From what I can tell, I won't be sorry... at least, I HOPE not. ;)

Thanks for your thoughts....

m.


The advice generally given at this stage is to get the best you can afford first. Obviously, you are interested in photography. Even if your knowledge right now isn't high enough to appreciate the more finer details, it will be soon. Then you might regret your cheaper choice.
 11/13/2003 08:33:25 PM · #40
its a nice camera
with lense options

in no way low end in my mind
pictures can be taken with a tin can and tin foil
thats low end

if you want control - the 300d gives you pretty good control
the bad points are always spoken more.

soup
 11/14/2003 11:36:12 AM · #41
I have been playing around with it for about a week now, and I dont find this camera to be low end in no means. With everything that went into this camera, I paid about $1,560.00 when all was said and done.

I will say one thing though, if you plan on getting the 300D, it would be wise to get the BG-E1 battery grip.. especially if you are throwing on a 75-300mm lens, it gives you alot of grip and helps keep the camera steardy from falling forward. I bought the battery grip and it gives a whole new feel to the camera.

I think this camera has alot of nice features and you can do alot with it. Yeah it has it small flaws but I think every camera has it's flaws.. I think Canon did an awesome job making a Digital SLR for the people who can't slap down $4-5,000 on a camera.. finally someone who cares about the not so wealthy.

I give this Rebel 300D 9 Stars!
 11/14/2003 11:58:02 AM · #42
Originally posted by FullyFocused:
I think Canon did an awesome job making a Digital SLR for the people who can't slap down $4-5,000 on a camera.. finally someone who cares about the not so wealthy.


Very good point.

I wonder why Canon is marketing such a product if it potentially reduces sales on its higher end? (A part of me realises the irony implicit here...)

11/14/2003 12:14:32 PM · #43
I think that it's because the people over at Canon realize that you don't need a $5,000 camera to take a good photo... it's about who takes it, and how you take it.. not how much the camera cost.
 11/14/2003 12:30:50 PM · #44
Originally posted by FullyFocused:
I have been playing around with it for about a week now, and I dont find this camera to be low end in no means. With everything that went into this camera, I paid about $1,560.00 when all was said and done.

I will say one thing though, if you plan on getting the 300D, it would be wise to get the BG-E1 battery grip.. especially if you are throwing on a 75-300mm lens, it gives you alot of grip and helps keep the camera steardy from falling forward. I bought the battery grip and it gives a whole new feel to the camera.

I think this camera has alot of nice features and you can do alot with it. Yeah it has it small flaws but I think every camera has it's flaws.. I think Canon did an awesome job making a Digital SLR for the people who can't slap down $4-5,000 on a camera.. finally someone who cares about the not so wealthy.

I give this Rebel 300D 9 Stars!


Thanks so much for your feedback! I am going shopping this weekend to really take a close look at it. Might pick it up then, or maybe in a week (I tend to need a lot of time to mull things over *grin*). I will pretty near be breaking the bank on the camera, so I may have to wait for the other acessories (spare battery, more lenses and the like), but I will look into the grip you suggested.

I'm actually quite excited...:)
11/14/2003 10:27:19 PM · #45
Originally posted by FullyFocused:
I think that it's because the people over at Canon realize that you don't need a $5,000 camera to take a good photo... it's about who takes it, and how you take it.. not how much the camera cost.


Whereas what you say is very true indeed, I suspect that Canon have deliberately cut down on key features to keep the 300d in the prosumer band. Those who want a fully professional feature set will still have to look elsewhere. If Canon thought even for a moment that sales for their higher-end cameras would be negatively affected, they wouldn't have brought out the 300d.

My point is that, although it is a good camera at the prosumer level, keeping it out of the professional market was a deliberate decision.
11/15/2003 11:37:41 AM · #46
Yeah but take a photo with the 300D and the 10D show it to someone and they would hardly know the difference. Yeah so the body of the 300D is a little cheaper, and it lacks in some of the options that the 10D has, but any TRUE photographer can take a photo with ANY camera and make it look "professional" regardless of the camera. Professional or non Professional, I am still strong on the fact that, it's all about who takes the photo, and how it's represented.. just because Canon's 300D is cheaper priced and lacks in some of the goodies other camera's have, doesn't make it any less professional. The photographer makes the photos professional, not the camera.

I am not saying that the camera itself has nothing to do with how photos come out.. because in some aspect it does. But I have seen some pretty outstanding shots with a regular Kodak Digital that cost about 300 bucks at Walmart. I remember the days that a regular 35mm camera by Canon, Minolta, and Nikon sold at regular stores was considered professional camera's. Today if you don't spend over $3,000 on a digital camera, it's considered NON professional, which I find to be a load of crap.

I will give you a GREAT example. My first year of taking photos for Nascar racing back in 2000, I was excited about having credentials to the garage and Pits to take photos. Now mind you, I show up in Victory lane to take photos of the winner with a Canon Rebel with a 300 lens that I bought at WALMART for $247.00. The other photographers in victory lane had these HUGE "professional" camera's with huge lens's, all the whistles and bells. I show up with a walmart special.. one photographer made a comment when looking at me "Gee I think they are letting anyone in these days" I felt like CRAP after that. BUT 2 weeks later I posted my BEST photos, a nice closeup of a driver and it was BEAUTIFUL. I get an e-mail saying how great the shot was, how I should see about having it published in a magazine.. they asked me what I used for a camera.. WALMART SPECIAL 35mm Canon Rebel with a 300 lens.. total cost $247.00 - it was just as good as that woman who made the comment and her $5,000 camera she had in her hand. It was a good laugh for about a year. My point made, it's not always about how much or what camera is better.. it's how you use it and I will always believe that.

11/15/2003 12:37:00 PM · #47
Originally posted by Gordon:

Though the lack of a spot meter mode is about the one most frustrating thing with my current D60. Yes you can work around it but it is annoying.

I find it astounding that Canon would manufacture the D60 without a spot meter. My G1 has a spot meter mode. If and when I can afford a new camera some day, I will certainly be looking closely at the Nikons.
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