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07/22/2008 01:10:29 PM · #76 |
We all know he (prof fate) can be rude at the best of times usually ignored by most but I have to agree he really crossed the line here and deserves all the bashing he gets. Kudos to the DPC crew for putting him back in line here.
People ask for help, either offer your help or STFU (be quiet) do not see it as your RIGHT to attack them in any way.
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07/22/2008 01:31:08 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by MAK:
We all know he (prof fate) can be rude at the best of times usually ignored by most but I have to agree he really crossed the line here and deserves all the bashing he gets. Kudos to the DPC crew for putting him back in line here.
People ask for help, either offer your help or STFU (be quiet) do not see it as your RIGHT to attack them in any way. |
Forum Rules
#11 - "Do not attack other users. This includes "calling out" specific comments or commenters in a hostile manner. Personal attacks are never appropriate in a constructive discussion. If you disagree with another participant, address their points without attacking them personally. Be aware that others may have differing opinions of a personal attack, so use care when posting. Please note that this includes publicly "calling out" commenters (whether by name or not) in a hostile way."
#14 - "Above all, play nice. Be aware that the above rules are not all-inclusive. If you stir up trouble to prove a point, or engage in a pattern of disruptive behavior, we will address your actions, even if those actions do not violate any specific rule listed here. We will also handle any issues not specifically covered by the rules on a case by case basis." |
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07/22/2008 01:53:11 PM · #78 |
Wow!
This is an absurd thread.
To begin, I think Chris' fear of losing business is justified, maybe not so much from the original poster but in general because photography is becoming easier because of technological advances and there are more folks who strive for (and achieve) professional results without being a professional.
Chris' sense of panic is present in many professional photographer communities and articles about (especially lately) on how people shooting for free are killing the ranks of professionals out there. While this is disconcerting, I don't think you can fight it. The only option is, if you are going to be a professional, to be that much better than the stock professional in your town. So if the people who do it for fun have an SLR and a sharp lens with a strobe and a softbox, it's no longer enough for you to take a well lit portrait. You need something more. So if you are scared of amateurs beating you out, make better photo than them and do it in a more professional manner, and the people who appreciate it will let you know with their checkbook.
And you know what .... I don't know if that is bad for photography. I'm as scared as anyone else who tries to make a living in this business but I think that overall the people that really deserve to succeed will. Those with the highest talent, best work ethic and best attitude are the ones who (and will continue to) win work. There will always be those folks who think of photography as a worthless commodity, and there is no point in worrying about them or catering to them. Cindi has the right attitude, she offers (and is aware) services that hobbyists can't hold a candle to. That's the way to do it if you need to make a living.
To the original poster, I would suggest prints at MPIX or costco or even target. Your local Wolf or Ritz, but if you have a local camera store why not go order prints from them even if they are little more, in the spirit of helping them stay afloat. Most places use a digital C printing process and all are high quality and archival.
And Chris, I have to say, there is some sloppy, unprofessional looking photoshop work in that photo you posted of the kid and his car. Now I understand you can make professional looking images but this isn't the work I'd show. I'm not saying this to be a jerk but as an honest critique.
I'm sure I just fan the flames here but this is happening on forums everywhere and I just see photographers yelling at one another all over the place, and it's just as prevalent in the professional world. Clearly times are tough and this is a changing industry, best to look ahead and set your self apart than to worry about those trying to learn for fun or taking away your business, because that is something you will never, ever be able to control, no matter how much you disapprove. Fact of the matter is our skills are becoming less and less rare and desirable because there are more and more people learning. You have to adjust and be that much better. Yeah, it's not easy, but to have a job this fun you are pretty damn lucky and should work pretty damn hard to be the best possible photographer you can be. |
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07/22/2008 02:00:27 PM · #79 |
@Glad2badad... good point, and per those rules the first contentious post probably should have been nipped in the bud before the whole thread derailed. We'd like to encourage newbies to ask questions and learn, and the responses were combination of emphasizing that point and reminding everyone (not just Prof) that we probably all started with similar free projects for fun. I agree with others that the harsh reaction was a natural response to such severe criticism of a newbie's innocent question (even if some posts were testing the limits and/or hidden). Ironically, many of the responders are working professional photographers and advanced amateurs... the very people most likely to siphon off another photographer's business.
The thread will probably be locked soon since the original question was settled long ago (though I didn't see anyone mention my usual printer: SmugMug), and it has since wandered deep into rant territory. |
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07/22/2008 02:35:07 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
... the original question was settled long ago (though I didn't see anyone mention my usual printer: SmugMug) ... |
Shannon - SmugMug doesn't offer free accounts to upload and print, or does it?
Did anyone mention DPCPrints? Doesn't SmugMug and DPCPrints use the same printing service?
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07/22/2008 02:56:45 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Shannon - SmugMug doesn't offer free accounts to upload and print, or does it?
Did anyone mention DPCPrints? Doesn't SmugMug and DPCPrints use the same printing service? |
SmugMug offers a free trial. ;-) It IS the same printer as DPCPrints (both use EZPrints), but DPCP's current interface isn't quite optimized for uploading groups of photos. |
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07/22/2008 03:00:23 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
...The thread will probably be locked soon ... |
I call last post! :-)
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07/22/2008 03:09:29 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
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That's funny. In another thread you said this image was from a modeling workshop you attended, not a senior at all. |
Yeah, she was a senior. and yes, I shot her in a modeling workshop. Seems HS kids CAN make money in photography - they don't have to give it away for free.
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07/22/2008 03:11:15 PM · #84 |
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07/22/2008 03:11:47 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
Going slightly off-topic here, but could someone enlightenme as to the whole Seniors thing?
What age are they for? What sort of proportion of those have a 'Senior' portrait? What sort of cost is involved? Oh, and what is the actual purpose - a sort of right of passage, perhaps? We don't have an tradition like this in England, so the whole thing is very confusing to me. |
Senior potraits are done during the summer preceding their senior year of HS. Costs vary, but $800-1000 for the whole deal isn't out of the ordinary. I know many photogs that average in the $1800 to 2400 range - per senior. The highest sale I've heard of was over $9000. Yes, nine grand.
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07/22/2008 03:13:42 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by SaraR:
Going slightly off-topic here, but could someone enlightenme as to the whole Seniors thing?
What age are they for? What sort of proportion of those have a 'Senior' portrait? What sort of cost is involved? Oh, and what is the actual purpose - a sort of right of passage, perhaps? We don't have an tradition like this in England, so the whole thing is very confusing to me. |
Senior potraits are done during the summer preceding their senior year of HS. Costs vary, but $800-1000 for the whole deal isn't out of the ordinary. I know many photogs that average in the $1800 to 2400 range - per senior. The highest sale I've heard of was over $9000. Yes, nine grand. |
I am a high school teacher. The average price for my 'forensics' kids was about 3k...per package. Too bad I wasn't getting that! :)
The great thing about Senior photo's is that they want wallets that they pass out to their friends. It is more of bragging rights than anything...'your photo's look GREAT!!!'
Message edited by author 2008-07-22 15:16:20.
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07/22/2008 03:22:14 PM · #87 |
| Evidently this thread just continues to dive into the rant category....... I think the OP has her question answered so perhaps this could be locked or sent into the rant discussion. |
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07/22/2008 03:26:19 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Mr_Pants:
Mr_Fate, for instance, seems totally unaware of the history of businesses, regardless of his protestations about being an expert in such matters. History is littered with whole industries that have been rendered redundant by the march of progress. Professional photography could very easily be one of the next and it's not much use railing about it. |
I am totally aware of that. But i doubt many buggy whip makers would have helped Henry Ford invent a car or improve his manufacturing processes or given him advice on business - if they took a long term view.
It's unlikely all professional photographers will wither away and vanish. Hey, in my area there are still 2 camera stores that cater to pros. Used to be 16 though. That's 14 owners and dozens of employees that don't have their jobs anymore, whose dreams, perhaps, have died. If they failed to adapt to changing times then perhaps they contributed to their own demise. I don't intend to contribute to mine - that is all i'm saying, keep saying, and keep getting pummeled for saying.
Perhaps you'd like to see all pro photographers go quietly off into the night and get jobs at McDonalds or Walmart. There's been enough of that already in this country with folks not caring about manufacturing or anything else - whatever cheapest is all that matters. After 100+ years Hershey's is made in Mexico - we're getting what we deserve starting with $4/gallon gas.
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07/22/2008 03:29:26 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Shannon - SmugMug doesn't offer free accounts to upload and print, or does it?
Did anyone mention DPCPrints? Doesn't SmugMug and DPCPrints use the same printing service? |
Yes, Smugmug and DPCPrints both use EZPrints. They've make lots of prints for myself and for my clients and they do great work.
You can also open an account at EZPrints.com for free. They have free online sharing, cards, gifts, yada, yada...
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07/22/2008 03:42:59 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
Get some perspective Prof. You claim to be the genius of business planning yet your intimidated by a High School student taking pics of her friends... By the way I recommend //www.bayphoto.com for prints to the OP. If your work stands out so much from the amateurs it shouldn't matter, people will want your quality and dismiss the other stuff. You want art to be appreciated by all yet you put the screws to all your clients with your inflated ego and high prices and add on costs for just about everything. Your work is quality but everything else is suspect. |
I pay no attention the age, mental acuity or disposition a poster, HS kid or 90 year old man or anyone in between -ain't the internet great? I don't discriminate - or pander.
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
If someone is undercutting you, its your problem not theirs. If I was in PA, I would be undercutting the crap out of you...why? Because my business plan is good. With my current pricing, I have a huge margin, plenty of work and happy clients. I have all my equipment paid for and I have lots now. All this is done w/ cheaper prices than yours. Am I taking business away from other pro photogs? I sure hope so. |
Undercutting? She wants to give it away for free and is asking in a business forum how to do it. No, I'm not worried about undercutting but I can't compete with free. And it's stupid to suggest any can make a living doing it. If you've got a business model that makes you rich and profitable at walmart prices, go for it. There is room for all price levels. But if you can get people to pay more for what you're doing and you're not getting it you're either a philanthropist or bad business man.
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
I also donate my services to community events. Could I charge...maybe, but if I don't I ensure that I get the job and not someone else. I make nothing from them and spend a lot of time. Why? Because I shake hands and mingle and make contacts. Everyone knows someone getting married, needing a baby pic, a senior pic etc. |
Yeah, it's called network marketing, grass roots, guerilla marketing - every successful business does it. Me included. If it didn't give you some return - more people know your name, what you do, etc, then you wouldn't do it. You'd find another way to spend your time that profited you in some way.
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
Lastly, haven't you noticed that the business of photography forum is 90% people asking questions to start out not pros sharing ideas. You seem to know this b/c you slam every beginner...myself included. |
[/quote]
I don't slam beginners. I slam ignorance and laziness. You (or anyone) that wants to start, own or run a business (be it photography or anything else) needs to know how business works. You need the tools, space, skills, product, marketing and pricing to make it all work - like making a cake if you leave out a key ingredient you won't get the results you were after. I didn't invent the photography studio or wedding business model and it seems a lot of people that know nothing about the business seem to think they have a better one - it's unlikely. I too had that idea then found out the present model has evolved thru trial and error for over the past three centuries. Digital has had a tremendous impact, but human nature hasn't changed, emotions are still emotions, etc. Before you or any newbie comes along and tells the established community how they should do things perhaps they should invest some of their time to find out why things are they way they are. There is a reason for it all. I make no bones about telling it like it is - as it's been told to me by mentors or hard learned experiences. Difference is, I listen to the advice i'm given and learn from it.
Message edited by author 2008-07-22 15:43:52.
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07/22/2008 03:45:03 PM · #91 |
To OP....I use MPIX and snapfish. Both pretty cheap and worth it.
To the others...
If someone asked me to do senior portraits for free I would. There is no way I would ever pay $800-$1000 for graduating high school. When I graduated I used the school photographer. Got a few 8 x 10's and some wallets. Now if me and my friends wanted to do group photos maybe that would be different.
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07/22/2008 03:47:53 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by idnic:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
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That's funny. In another thread you said this image was from a modeling workshop you attended, not a senior at all. |
Yeah, she was a senior. and yes, I shot her in a modeling workshop. Seems HS kids CAN make money in photography - they don't have to give it away for free. |
The photos you posted while nice can be done by many an amateur. I know quite a number of them who's work blows this stuff off the planet and then some. Instead of constantly chastising others for low prices you should be spending that time raising your own game because you look like you're standing still in a river and many an amateur is passing you by. No offense just keeping it real like yourself. |
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07/22/2008 03:48:50 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
To OP....I use MPIX and snapfish. Both pretty cheap and worth it.
To the others...
If someone asked me to do senior portraits for free I would. There is no way I would ever pay $800-$1000 for graduating high school. When I graduated I used the school photographer. Got a few 8 x 10's and some wallets. Now if me and my friends wanted to do group photos maybe that would be different. |
And there's no way I'd buy a Merecedes or an SUV. Or a cell phone or take a plane ride. To me those things have no value. Not everyone feels that way about them, or about photography.
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07/22/2008 03:57:33 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by idnic:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
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That's funny. In another thread you said this image was from a modeling workshop you attended, not a senior at all. |
Yeah, she was a senior. and yes, I shot her in a modeling workshop. Seems HS kids CAN make money in photography - they don't have to give it away for free. |
The photos you posted while nice can be done by many an amateur. I know quite a number of them who's work blows this stuff off the planet and then some. Instead of constantly chastising others for low prices you should be spending that time raising your own game because you look like you're standing still in a river and many an amateur is passing you by. No offense just keeping it real like yourself. |
In 3 weeks I've got a 300 pound senior girl coming for photos. That's what HER grandma said about her. She expects to look as good in her pics as the pic above. As a pro it's my job to turn out above average work for every client, every time, every day no matter what, without excuses. Or face the consequences which would be unemployment at the extreme. I don't want to dissapoint her - I want to make her feel like the prom queen she is inside. I don't get to choose what I shoot most of the time.
Look at how many opinions there are on this forum about images in challenges - no one enters (ok, rarely) an image they think sucks. How many ask 'why did this image finish ....'. Now imagine all those people wanting you to take their portrait, wedding, etc - can you please them all? Can you make everyone perfectly beautiful? Including the crying baby and the 2 year old having a trantrum? Not to say there is a different standard to a pro vs an amateur, but I've seen folks here talk about '40 hours of processing, taking 300 shots to get that one entry' - I don't have client willing to sit for 300 exposures, and I can't spend 40 hours on an image. So it can be unfair to compare the best to the best. It's more fair to compare body of work or averages, so to speak. I know many a financially successful photographer than doesn't know an aperture from an ISO. Yeah, it's true - check out every school photog, sports photog (team type), chain studios, etc. They do one thing (and generally do it well). It's a different type of photography.
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07/22/2008 04:14:50 PM · #95 |
OP: sorry to post off in this direction as well. That said, I think mpix is your best bet.
Funny. I think  Prof_Fate should have a look here. It seems you, as a professional need to find other ways to generate income than just selling pictures. then maybe this years clothing will be in reach...
Message edited by author 2008-07-22 16:15:56. |
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07/22/2008 04:32:15 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by onesaint:
OP: sorry to post off in this direction as well. That said, I think mpix is your best bet.
Funny. I think Prof_Fate should have a look here. It seems you, as a professional need to find other ways to generate income than just selling pictures. then maybe this years clothing will be in reach... |
Very interesting read and true - a lot of photogs are 'on tour'. I suggest anyone thinking of going pro in any way attend some of these workshops - it can be an eye opening experience and you'll certainly learn something. PPA has lots of week long schools all over the country and there are local orgs that will help one learn photography and art.
It's the folks that aren't willing to do that but still want to make money at this that annoy me - and sometimes I answer in an annoying fashion.
As for me, I booked 3 senior sessions today, have one to shoot tonite, booked a baby for tomorrow and add a bride to be to my saturday appointments. And I did a business port this morning (my first - so I'm still expanding.). I did as much in sales in May as I did in all of 2006. So I'm doing just fine, thank you very much for caring! (and I've got a couple of TTD sessions upcoming in august too - that's Trash The Dress if you didn't know - both wedding and PROM!)
Message edited by author 2008-07-22 16:33:07.
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07/22/2008 04:46:45 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by idnic:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
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That's funny. In another thread you said this image was from a modeling workshop you attended, not a senior at all. |
Yeah, she was a senior. and yes, I shot her in a modeling workshop. Seems HS kids CAN make money in photography - they don't have to give it away for free. |
The photos you posted while nice can be done by many an amateur. I know quite a number of them who's work blows this stuff off the planet and then some. Instead of constantly chastising others for low prices you should be spending that time raising your own game because you look like you're standing still in a river and many an amateur is passing you by. No offense just keeping it real like yourself. |
In 3 weeks I've got a 300 pound senior girl coming for photos. That's what HER grandma said about her. She expects to look as good in her pics as the pic above. As a pro it's my job to turn out above average work for every client, every time, every day no matter what, without excuses. Or face the consequences which would be unemployment at the extreme. I don't want to dissapoint her - I want to make her feel like the prom queen she is inside. I don't get to choose what I shoot most of the time.
Look at how many opinions there are on this forum about images in challenges - no one enters (ok, rarely) an image they think sucks. How many ask 'why did this image finish ....'. Now imagine all those people wanting you to take their portrait, wedding, etc - can you please them all? Can you make everyone perfectly beautiful? Including the crying baby and the 2 year old having a trantrum? Not to say there is a different standard to a pro vs an amateur, but I've seen folks here talk about '40 hours of processing, taking 300 shots to get that one entry' - I don't have client willing to sit for 300 exposures, and I can't spend 40 hours on an image. So it can be unfair to compare the best to the best. It's more fair to compare body of work or averages, so to speak. I know many a financially successful photographer than doesn't know an aperture from an ISO. Yeah, it's true - check out every school photog, sports photog (team type), chain studios, etc. They do one thing (and generally do it well). It's a different type of photography. |
Well if the pro is more efficient and consistent than why are you so hung up about some amateur's pricing model? If as you say they are more likely to screw up then you'll gain those customers in the future when they learn that they should have used a pro. No? |
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07/22/2008 04:54:13 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
i doubt many buggy whip makers would have helped Henry Ford invent a car or improve his manufacturing processes or given him advice on business - if they took a long term view. |
The thing is... your ire is completely misplaced. It's true that the digital age has enabled more people to take their own photos (or at least believe they can), and that will push the industry to emphasize quality and vision. HOWEVER, there will always be newbies eager to learn, and it often starts with asking questions in a forum like this. You did it, I did it, and the OP is asking questions now. This is NOT the enemy. She only asked us to recommend a good printer, not how to promote a giveaway. The types of people you're worried about are the ones who wouldn't even ask- they'd just print from an inkjet or the local pharmacy. Honestly, if I needed to demonstrate the value of a pro to people attempting to take "important" photos themselves, I would WANT them to see their own shots from the same print service! When the students compare their DIY photos to those of a classmate's pro portraits, the results should speak for themselves (unless you have a gifted young Elsapo or  Lovethelight screwing up the comparison). If they don't value the difference, then they wouldn't have hired me anyway and it's no loss. |
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07/22/2008 04:58:56 PM · #99 |
It's not the pricing model - READ my F'n posts will ya? It's about asking pros for help to give away photography. Again, I'm willing to help those wanting to go pro, but I see no benefit to helping someone that is giving away photographic services and products in competition with my profession.
If she (or anyone) feels the need to give away photo services there are TONS of worthwhile causes and organizations looking for you and your skills.
Here are some
//www.thinkpinkphotography.org/website/
//www.nowilaymedowntosleep.org/
//www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2006/02/rescue.html
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07/22/2008 05:05:35 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
It's about asking pros for help to give away photography. |
Correction: it's about helping someone print personal photos of friends who had no intention of hiring a pro anyway. Someone who asks about applying face paint for a Halloween costume isn't going to hire a makeup artist if you don't answer. |
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