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07/15/2008 01:00:01 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Who labeled all Parents harrasers? many of us here are parents and we certainly understand the need and want to protect our children... what we're talking about is going over the edge in the persuit of such... there is such a thing as going to far... on either end. |
Originally posted by icu1965:
This so called "perv", IMO, should not have been harrassed by the other parents, especially in front of the kids, that just sends a bad message to the kids. |
And:
Originally posted by Jaker:
...he last thing I need is somebody throwing my camera into the ocean or calling the cops. |
Originally posted by dknourek:
Too many paranoid wackos out there that are way to egar to make someone look like a criminal.
...and some over paranoid whacked out house wife tried to say that I was taking pictures of her in her home. |
Originally posted by Ivo:
This is why I'd rather take wildlife photos. Though it would suck being confronted by some paranoid whacko, it would only be reaonable to expect it to happen. |
Originally posted by egamble:
.In my experience, parents harass and overact at almost any and every situation. |
It's the tone of this thread. Parents are wrong. Photographers are within their rights and therefore are right. I just disagree.
edit to fix quotes |
Sorry, your parental paranoia doesn't trump the rights of others. |
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07/15/2008 01:00:32 PM · #52 |
I am a parent and a photographer.
And I still think that parents overreact and hassle people over their kids way too much. I see it all the time. You go out to eat, some little kid is acting like a shithead and getting food and trash everywhere. The parents are sitting there BEAMING at their pride and joy. When they walk away, the evidence of their child remain on the floor and smeared on the table/high chair. (worse yet, the SCREAMING children at stores. My son is only one, but he knows better than that crap. But When I worked at Wal Mart I saw parents get verbally berated by their children. If I said ANYTHING to these kids about making a mess they wanted to talk with my manager.)
My wife and I make a point to clean up any trace of our son before we leave. We even get on our hands and knees to pick up the food he drops while he is eating. (he is one) I don't want to be the type of parents I see come to me at school or that I see out and about...because I see the type of kids that those parents raise and I shudder to think my son will turn out like that.
Message edited by author 2008-07-15 13:05:39.
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07/15/2008 01:03:44 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by KaDi:
Whether parents or photographers there will always be some who act or react poorly. If we don't want people to judge us harshly as photographers, perhaps we should not judge all parents as "harassers"...? |
Parents coddle their children too much. If you were a teacher...(assuming you aren't) you would know this. It is never 'how can we fix this problem'....it is ALWAYS 'my baby would NEVER'......In my experience, parents harass and overact at almost any and every situation. |
It's funny how we live in a world that basically says that children should be protected from EVERYTHING at ALL COST whether it be a bump on the noggen, or anything else... in order to protect them we must assume that everone is out to get them (because is not how do we protect them), and everything is dangerous... suddenly that guy walking behind you on the street is a potential threat... the person in front of your house looking in your direction is likely a predator... the guy at the park with his camera is likely a pedaphile... we see the boogyman around every corner because this is the way we've built our world... never mind that the guy behind you on the street is just trying to get around you because you and your kids are taking up half the sidewalk... and the guy in front of your house is just trying to find an address (and the tree in your yard is blocking your house #), and the guy in the park is taking photo's of his kids on his only day off...
If we never look more than skin deep at any situation, we'll never see anything more than our own suppositions. |
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07/15/2008 01:05:05 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
It's funny how we live in a world that basically says that children should be protected from EVERYTHING at ALL COST whether it be a bump on the noggen, or anything else... in order to protect them we must assume that everone is out to get them (because is not how do we protect them), and everything is dangerous... suddenly that guy walking behind you on the street is a potential threat... the person in front of your house looking in your direction is likely a predator... the guy at the park with his camera is likely a pedaphile... we see the boogyman around every corner because this is the way we've built our world... never mind that the guy behind you on the street is just trying to get around you because you and your kids are taking up half the sidewalk... and the guy in front of your house is just trying to find an address (and the tree in your yard is blocking your house #), and the guy in the park is taking photo's of his kids on his only day off...
If we never look more than skin deep at any situation, we'll never see anything more than our own suppositions. |
good post.
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07/15/2008 01:05:24 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by gwe21:
I wonder if a woman taking pictures has ever been called a pervert????
I take pictures all the time at the park, I usually just ask the parents if its okay to photograph their kids, give them a card... I have never had any one even question me. |
If I'm taking pictures in a park where I don't know anyone, I ask permission and offer to email them the best shots; to be safe I do this for everyone, ie adults, dogs etc. If it's a child I know, I ask their permission, and as they're usually children of clients, have a level of trust with me, as do their parents. |
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07/15/2008 01:06:07 PM · #56 |
I take pictures of my kids all the time and never think twice about it; but whenever I have my camera with me I am careful- now.
One time, I was parked in a parking garage in Portland maine, and I turned around, and it was a great skyline/water shot; I took out my camera, and a security guard came over; I tried to explain but I just put it away and left.
Another time, I was driving near a prison close to where I work; the DPC challenge was "freedom" or "chains" and I figured I would take a picture of the razor wire on the brick wall. Well- About 3 cars and 6 CO's came over and radioed the call in and I thought- Man -I am in trouble" They took my license and walked away and came back and made me delete the photos and told me to get permission first. I was happy driving away from there.
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07/15/2008 01:07:11 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by icu1965:
I certainly did NOT label all parents as harrasers!!! I was referring to the story that the OP posted. When the man protested, and wanted to continue taking pictures of his own kids, the parents started yelling at him and one called him a pervert in front of all the other kids!
Don't put words in my mouth!!!! |
I apologize. I took your comment more broadly that it was apparently intended.
For the record, it seems to me that the parents mentioned in the article eventually over-stepped their limits upsetting the father photographing his own children. ...but I'd sure like to hear the other side of the story... |
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07/15/2008 01:10:23 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Brad:
I'd been out shooting in the local park in my town and when I was getting ready to leave, was blocked-in by several Sheriff's cars, was accused of shooting inappropriate pics ... |
If you have pictures which are "inappropriate" then it seems more likely that they are actually of someone doing somethng inappropriate. Maybe, as a photographer, we are just out there documenting the inappropriate and immoral behavior inundating our parks.
If someone accuses someone else of being "a pervert" aloud in a public place, they are opening themselves up to s suit for slander, unless they can prove the truth of the claim. |
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07/15/2008 01:18:24 PM · #59 |
...and I did find some mention of the "other side" from The Telegraph:
Malcolm Gwinnett, a Wolverhampton councillor whose daughter Tracey was running the ride, said the policy was to ask all those taking pictures if they had children on the ride.
"If they do, then that is fine," he said.
"But on this occasion another customer took exception to what the man was doing and an argument developed between those two people that continued without any further involvement from staff on the slide."
Mark Blackstock, manager of Wolverhampton Civic Centres who organised the two day show with the city council said: "Our staff are told to look out for people taking photos of young people. Operators of rides also have their own rules and regulations to abide by." (emphasis mine
One person acts badly and the world is going to hell in a hand basket. If that's where you stand then I know some Jehovah Witnesses who'd like to talk with you about the "end times." ;-) |
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07/15/2008 01:18:42 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
Originally posted by icu1965:
I certainly did NOT label all parents as harrasers!!! I was referring to the story that the OP posted. When the man protested, and wanted to continue taking pictures of his own kids, the parents started yelling at him and one called him a pervert in front of all the other kids!
Don't put words in my mouth!!!! |
I apologize. I took your comment more broadly that it was apparently intended.
For the record, it seems to me that the parents mentioned in the article eventually over-stepped their limits upsetting the father photographing his own children. ...but I'd sure like to hear the other side of the story... |
I'm sure all us parents here understand the need for caution... and I don't think anyone is really saything that a friendly question of 'hey what are your doing?" or even "I just wanted to make sure you're not gettting my children" is not appropriate... I'm most certain that most of us here would welcome that and respond fourthrightly... the issue at hand is when a parent got over the edge the "Hey!!! you have no right to..." or " you cant take pictures here!!!" or in this case the "You're taking pictures of kids you must be a prev" that is at issue... and the problem is this is what happens far too often
the worst part is that it makes us more and more nerveous to do a) what we have every right to do (in a responsable manner) and b) what most of us are very gifted at... the world would be a very dull place without photo's... and just remember, when we get to the point of taking a camera from a guy photograhing his kids(not that that did happen in this case), it's not a far thought that no parent will be able to take photo's of their kids.
funny though how this always relates to a Male taking photos... not one would have blinked had it been the wife taking the photos |
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07/15/2008 01:19:50 PM · #61 |
I am socially paranoid and have yet to take a non-candid of an adult let alone someones kid, however I do imagine it would be polite to talk to the parents afterwards, if they aren't going to berate me for it, I go into a fit trying to return things and being asked a lot of questions, I have no backbone.
As for asking parents and people for permission first, that is fine as long as it does not change the subject. If I want to take a photo of something it will be because whatever is going on has caught my eye at that moment. I don't want posed shots and people smiling and looking at the camera.
Someone has made a hidden camera that installs behind a pair of eye glasses, maybe I should work on building one of those instead, too bad it is only like 1mp...
Then again, in this city half the time when I look at someone they scour back at me sooo....... |
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07/15/2008 01:50:52 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by KaDi:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Who labeled all Parents harrasers? many of us here are parents and we certainly understand the need and want to protect our children... what we're talking about is going over the edge in the persuit of such... there is such a thing as going to far... on either end. |
Originally posted by icu1965:
This so called "perv", IMO, should not have been harrassed by the other parents, especially in front of the kids, that just sends a bad message to the kids. |
And:
Originally posted by Jaker:
...he last thing I need is somebody throwing my camera into the ocean or calling the cops. |
Originally posted by dknourek:
Too many paranoid wackos out there that are way to egar to make someone look like a criminal.
...and some over paranoid whacked out house wife tried to say that I was taking pictures of her in her home. |
Originally posted by Ivo:
This is why I'd rather take wildlife photos. Though it would suck being confronted by some paranoid whacko, it would only be reaonable to expect it to happen. |
Originally posted by egamble:
.In my experience, parents harass and overact at almost any and every situation. |
It's the tone of this thread. Parents are wrong. Photographers are within their rights and therefore are right. I just disagree.
edit to fix quotes |
Sorry, your parental paranoia doesn't trump the rights of others. |
Nobody mentioned the rights of one group over the other in this thread and you really should step down from your silly crusade. This is simply a discussion over different views that arise from a common place scenario such as this.
It is certainly your right to go a pet that pretty little bear cub because you are harmless animal lover but it is the right of the mama bear to tear off a chunk of your ass because she sees you as a threat. It is of no consequence of who is right and wrong, it is simply an observation of the dynamic that takes place.
It is prudent to carefully choose the "Hill you wish to die on". If you feel compelled to challenge the values of others in an effort to validate your rights, so be it. If you wish to ignore the consequence of your actions, good or bad, you are naive.
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07/15/2008 01:51:09 PM · #63 |
Some basic guidelines for this kind of issue.
You have the right to photograph anyone in a public, but if a parent or guardian asks you not to, respect their wishes. You would want yours respected as well - right?
Having the right to photograph anyone in public doesn't mean you have to, nor should assert your rights to do so unless in an official capacity such as photojournalism.
Be an ambassador to our hobby/trade. Spread the emotional good feelings that we can affect with our cameras by sharing the moments we capture of others with them. Very rarely will a parent not beam over some stunning photographs of their children. No everyone has a decent camera, nor "sees" the world as we do through our viewfinders.
If something or a scene feels uncomfortable pointing your camera at, follow your conscience. A beach scene with a naked 2-yr old girl running about is certainly innocent and brings smiles to most anyone that sees it, yet when you point a camera at the child, it crosses an imaginary line of privacy that really shouldn't be crossed.
We all can affect the world in a positive way with the right attitude and compassion.
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07/15/2008 01:55:07 PM · #64 |
| If Person A sees Person B taking pictures of kids, and automatically thinks "that person must be taking pictures for sexual purposes," then which person has the "dirty" mind? |
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07/15/2008 01:58:00 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by togtog:
On a more serious note. I don't believe there is a genuine connection between photography and being a pervert, even being in a park. I would like to know where the publics fear of photography is not only stemming from but being reinforced and encouraged. |
Great point.
My wife and I just recently found out she's pregnant with what will be our first child. I absolutely cannot wait to take him/her to the park and take pictures of them playing. It's a shame that I now to need to be worried that someone will think I'm being a pervert for trying to preserve the memories of my child's childhood.
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07/15/2008 02:00:43 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If Person A sees Person B taking pictures of kids, and automatically thinks "that person must be taking pictures for sexual purposes," then which person has the "dirty" mind? |
Must be you for thinking it, cuz' no one else here thinks along those lines to have even raised that question.
btw, do you like movies about gladiators?
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07/15/2008 02:04:33 PM · #67 |
The voice of reason. Well said, and Thank you!
Originally posted by Brad:
Some basic guidelines for this kind of issue.
You have the right to photograph anyone in a public, but if a parent or guardian asks you not to, respect their wishes. You would want yours respected as well - right?
Having the right to photograph anyone in public doesn't mean you have to, nor should assert your rights to do so unless in an official capacity such as photojournalism.
Be an ambassador to our hobby/trade. Spread the emotional good feelings that we can affect with our cameras by sharing the moments we capture of others with them. Very rarely will a parent not beam over some stunning photographs of their children. No everyone has a decent camera, nor "sees" the world as we do through our viewfinders.
If something or a scene feels uncomfortable pointing your camera at, follow your conscience. A beach scene with a naked 2-yr old girl running about is certainly innocent and brings smiles to most anyone that sees it, yet when you point a camera at the child, it crosses an imaginary line of privacy that really shouldn't be crossed.
We all can affect the world in a positive way with the right attitude and compassion. |
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07/15/2008 02:05:24 PM · #68 |
Just as an aside...
We had an issue here in Oregon regarding someone who was actually a pervert taking pix of girls between the ages of 8 & 14. Everything was all legal and no inappropriate shots either, and he wasn't selling them. However he was posting them on his website and giving addresses of the parks and the times of day that these girls were there...all as freedom of information to those types of folks who get more excitement then a normal adult over watching young girls.
He blatently stated on his website that he was a "pedohpile in recovery." He was run out of California and came to Oregon specifically because our Freedom of Speech intrepretations are the loosest in the US.
As far as I know, he is back in California.
As a parent of a young girl in that age group, let me tell you I was looking closely at every man with a camera that even remotely resembled his likeness.
That being said, public venues are that...public. Parents, kids, staff, photographers, performers...whomever is there, doing whatever they are doing, MUST act responsibly and with a bit of decorum and politeness.
I would never harass someone with a camera just because s/he was pointing it towards me or my family. But I would sincerely hope that that person had the humanity to respect my image. |
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07/15/2008 02:07:27 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Nobody mentioned the rights of one group over the other in this thread and you really should step down from your silly crusade. This is simply a discussion over different views that arise from a common place scenario such as this.
It is certainly your right to go a pet that pretty little bear cub because you are harmless animal lover but it is the right of the mama bear to tear off a chunk of your ass because she sees you as a threat. It is of no consequence of who is right and wrong, it is simply an observation of the dynamic that takes place.
It is prudent to carefully choose the "Hill you wish to die on". If you feel compelled to challenge the values of others in an effort to validate your rights, so be it. If you wish to ignore the consequence of your actions, good or bad, you are naive. |
Why do you presume to tell me what to do?
Also, what does a bear have to do with any of this? Are we discussing an incident at the zoo? Did you post this in the wrong thread? Were you reading this and got confused?
Newsflash - Bears are animals. They act according to their instincts. Unlike people, they do not have the ability to reason and act accordingly.
Message edited by author 2008-07-15 14:12:53. |
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07/15/2008 02:10:02 PM · #70 |
A few years ago while at the post office in a strip mall type thing a girl came running out of a karate class to her father ran right past me, she started showing off moves to her dad and I thought it was one of the most adorable things I had ever seen. I obviously didn't have a camera then, my G2 being a good for nothing deadbeat at home on the sofa with a can of beer. I would have paid to be able to capture her right at that moment. Sadly the father didn't have a camera either.
It really tears my heart out, that my passion of photography, is seen by so many as negative and threatening and so many moments like that just go flying by never to come again.
On an unrelated note, it bothers me greatly at the thought of a parent saying stop taking photos, and the photographer blindly complying. What do you take a picture of then? Do you just wander around, taking random shots, or do you go home? How does it look to the other parents to see one come up and then you pack up and leave? How does it make other photographers look when you just run away from your right to be outdoors not harming anyone? What if you were black and a parent asked you to leave because your skin tone made them uncomfortable? Is that acceptable?
Message edited by author 2008-07-15 14:10:53. |
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07/15/2008 02:23:41 PM · #71 |
A happier side to this situation: two days ago, I took this picture\. The area was very crowded, and I was sitting in a little cove on the rocks. Alex was swimming in the bay. A mother, her two teenaged daughters in swimsuits, and her son came and sat beside me. After a while, I looked up, and Alex had climbed on some rocks just above me, a few feet from the girls. Without thinking about it, I lifted my camera, with the gigantic 17-55 on it, and snapped about twenty pictures of him. The girls were in my direct line of fire, but just below the field of view (though impossible to tell from their perspective). Mom looked at me, then looked in at Alex, and carried on, not missing a beat.
The world is also full of perfectly rational, reasonable people free from paranoia. |
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07/15/2008 02:28:28 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Louis:
...The world is also full of perfectly rational, reasonable people free from paranoia. |
Thank you Louis. |
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07/15/2008 02:34:53 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
...Another time, I was driving near a prison close to where I work; the DPC challenge was "freedom" or "chains" and I figured I would take a picture of the razor wire on the brick wall. Well- About 3 cars and 6 CO's came over and radioed the call in and I thought- Man -I am in trouble" They took my license and walked away and came back and made me delete the photos and told me to get permission first. I was happy driving away from there. |
I'm sorry, but how did they make you do this? No one has any right to 'make' you delete photos, nor do they have the right to take your gear forcibly. A polite but firm "These are my images (PROPERTY!), and they will remain in my possession until a judge rules otherwise". Even if a policeman were to steal ('confiscate') your gear, they have absolutely no legal right to destroy the images.
Think about it - even if you were trespassing, you still own the copyright to the images. Its what you DO with them that matters, period.
[url=www.krages.com]Link to the Photographer's Rights[/url] |
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07/15/2008 02:35:08 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Ivo:
Nobody mentioned the rights of one group over the other in this thread and you really should step down from your silly crusade. This is simply a discussion over different views that arise from a common place scenario such as this.
It is certainly your right to go a pet that pretty little bear cub because you are harmless animal lover but it is the right of the mama bear to tear off a chunk of your ass because she sees you as a threat. It is of no consequence of who is right and wrong, it is simply an observation of the dynamic that takes place.
It is prudent to carefully choose the "Hill you wish to die on". If you feel compelled to challenge the values of others in an effort to validate your rights, so be it. If you wish to ignore the consequence of your actions, good or bad, you are naive. |
Why do you presume to tell me what to do?
Also, what does a bear have to do with any of this? Are we discussing an incident at the zoo? Did you post this in the wrong thread? Were you reading this and got confused?
Newsflash - Bears are animals. They act according to their instincts. Unlike people, they do not have the ability to reason and act accordingly. |
Have you heard of mob mentality? Never over estimate the primal motivations of the "Mass human organism". The masses will succumb to herd mentality with little thought to what the underlying issue really is. If the media says so, then it must be that way. The media has embedded the fear we have of "our" world no different than bear has "instinctively" learned that things getting close to the cubs is a threat. TED.com
Telling you what to do? Now you really are being silly. I'm too busy wiping the "foaming spittle" from the sides of my mouth. ;-) |
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07/15/2008 02:54:05 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Telling you what to do? Now you really are being silly. I'm too busy wiping the "foaming spittle" from the sides of my mouth. ;-) |
Your meds must've kicked in. |
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