Author | Thread |
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07/10/2008 10:33:03 PM · #1226 |
Originally posted by coronamv: Actually Anal sex is illegal in most states ... |
Not anymore in the USA -- the Supreme Court has ruled those statutes unconstitutional. |
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07/10/2008 10:38:25 PM · #1227 |
Originally posted by sfalice: About all I can do at this point is to listen, inject what I hope is a pertinent comment or two, and make sure you know you have a backup. |
It *is* all you can do.....stand up for what know and believe......that fear and ignorance will not always will out. Be a strong heart and a soft shoulder for your friends and family......
And you can hope and pray that someday, true equality will happen.
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07/10/2008 11:50:33 PM · #1228 |
Originally posted by dponlyme: The bible states unequivocally that homosexual sex is a sin. |
Which bible? Seriously. The Bible states precious few guidelines that haven't been been interpreted, translated, and/or practiced the opposite way at some point. From some of the links below:
The Christian Scriptures, in their original Greek do not contain any clear references to consensual homosexuality within a committed relationship, and certainly do not contain any unambiguous condemnation of gay and lesbian sexual activity. However, after having been filtered through the belief systems of the translators, many English versions of the Bible clearly condemn homosexual behavior. Now that the famous "anti-homosexual" passages of 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Romans 1:18 have been so long identified as being critical of homosexual activity, it would be impossible for Bible translators to offer alternative explanations; their Bible wouldn't sell.
"On each of these issues, at one point the church had near unanimity of opinion and then, over time and painfully, changed its mind to almost the exact opposite view." Jack Rogers, referring to human slavery, restricting permissible roles for women, and restricting homosexual rights.
"The Bible has been used for centuries by Christians as a weapon of control. To read it literally is to believe in a three-tiered universe, to condone slavery, to treat women as inferior creatures, to believe that sickness is caused by God's punishment and that mental disease and epilepsy are caused by demonic possession. When someone tells me that they believe the Bible is the 'literal and inerrant word of God,' I always ask, 'Have you ever read it'?" Bishop John Shelby Spong
I would encourage you to do just that: to read it... not just a particular version or two, but the history of various versions and their interpretations over the years. A good place to start would be religioustolerance.org, which presents the various viewpoints as objectively as any I could find. Among the pertinent sections:
What the Bible says about homosexuality
The Bible and same sex marriages
How religions establish their beliefs and change them over time
Bible passages considered immoral by today's theologians and secularists
Message edited by author 2008-07-10 23:51:23. |
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07/11/2008 12:05:36 AM · #1229 |
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07/11/2008 12:19:26 AM · #1230 |
//www.religioustolerance.org/1st_visi.htm
I am still researching and evaluating the matter. My last post is my current position and many other Christians. The link above is a start to delving into the issues of the Bible and what it states. I did want everyone to understand that it is not a matter of discrimination or just plain homophobia that is the driving force behind the matter for me and I would certainly hope for most Christians.
edit: weird, I didn't even read your post scalvert and we came up with the same web site.
Message edited by author 2008-07-11 01:11:43. |
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07/11/2008 03:13:37 AM · #1231 |
Originally posted by dponlyme: I know that you don't understand the thinking. I know you don't agree.
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I already know what you think of me. You base my entire worth as a human being on whether or not I agree with you. |
Wow. Just wow. This post saddens me and makes me feel absolutely hopeless.
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07/11/2008 03:37:56 AM · #1232 |
Originally posted by dponlyme: I did want everyone to understand that it is not a matter of discrimination or just plain homophobia that is the driving force behind the matter for me and I would certainly hope for most Christians.
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As has been stated many times, there is nothing wrong with you having your privately held views. That's cool. The issue is why those views must be held by and/or impressed upon others. I don't plan or expect to convince you to see the world my way by any means. I have my view, you have yours. As long as your view does nothing to harm or injure anyone else, please continue to hold it as long as you believe in it, and you're more than welcome to express it, here and elsewhere. I would ask the same for those that hold a differing view. I believe the key is "no harm to others". Harm to self is a choice and not one that the government really needs to regulate unless harm to self, again, results in harm to others. All of the preceding OF COURSE assumes mentally competent legal adults. (I also don't understand why suicide is illegal - hard to prosecute when successful, yes?)
Alice, you are one of the finest examples of a lady one could ask for. You have my sincere condolences for your loss. For your sake, and your brother's, I do hope the case can be resolved and admire you for both sharing the circumstances and continuing to pursue all possible avenues. You have my deepest respect and admiration. I do so hope we can meet someday!
Message edited by author 2008-07-11 03:38:43. |
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07/11/2008 06:16:24 AM · #1233 |
Originally posted by Mousie: Originally posted by dponlyme: I know that you don't understand the thinking. I know you don't agree.
...
I already know what you think of me. You base my entire worth as a human being on whether or not I agree with you. |
Wow. Just wow. This post saddens me and makes me feel absolutely hopeless. |
Sorry bout that. things aren't going well here in the 3d world and I guess I was having a bit of a pity party for myself inside my head. |
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07/11/2008 08:48:03 AM · #1234 |
Originally posted by sfalice: [quote=coronamv] Yes your right No lady here... I will accept that you for the way you phrased that statement are a lady...not just a woman or female.. SO with that I will say we can agree that there are homosexuals and Heterosexuals and Asexuals and those that beleive in a god and those that don't beleive in anything. And in those we have various degrees of magnitued. Not all straight men are gay and not all gay men are straight. So if it does not effect you then why let it bother you. I say if you want to live your life in a way that makes you happy and does not influence or have any impact one anyone who wishes not to live their life that way then go for it. Just don't be a burden on society and I mean that to everyone.. Take care of your own and leave others alone..
Coronamv, I have read your post with awe. You will note I have bolded part of it.
Referring to my last post.
In the circumstances of birth, I got the âleft-handed gene.â
My only brother, my big brother, was gifted with the âgayâ gene.
Now, in my eighth decade, I have lived a long, and I hope a productive, life.
My brother lived until a few days after his 26th birthday, when he was abducted about 50 feet from a â what we now call a âgayâ â bar, was taken away, robbed and brutally beaten having his brained bashed in. Yes, he was murdered. If you must, you may read some of the details here
here.
While I do not parade this information, I do want you to understand that you, and others, are not arguing in the abstract. Innocent, very innocent, people, are harmed by attitudes such as yours.
I quote you: If it does not effect(sic) you then why let it bother you... Take care of your own and leave others alone.
this is what I am trying to do. And you?
SFAlice |
Granted I read this correctly, but you are saying I disagree with you? Yes it is terrible what occurred to your brother and I would wish that on no one. Let me ask you this and pleas I am not trying to diminish what happened to your brother but post a question to ask is this a similar situation. With that said what is the difference in someone being murdered for being a homosexual or being murdered for your religious beliefs " I before E"....? Is there a difference? |
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07/11/2008 09:10:13 AM · #1235 |
Originally posted by coronamv: Originally posted by sfalice: [quote=coronamv] Yes your right No lady here... I will accept that you for the way you phrased that statement are a lady...not just a woman or female.. SO with that I will say we can agree that there are homosexuals and Heterosexuals and Asexuals and those that beleive in a god and those that don't beleive in anything. And in those we have various degrees of magnitued. Not all straight men are gay and not all gay men are straight. So if it does not effect you then why let it bother you. I say if you want to live your life in a way that makes you happy and does not influence or have any impact one anyone who wishes not to live their life that way then go for it. Just don't be a burden on society and I mean that to everyone.. Take care of your own and leave others alone..
Coronamv, I have read your post with awe. You will note I have bolded part of it.
Referring to my last post.
In the circumstances of birth, I got the âleft-handed gene.â
My only brother, my big brother, was gifted with the âgayâ gene.
Now, in my eighth decade, I have lived a long, and I hope a productive, life.
My brother lived until a few days after his 26th birthday, when he was abducted about 50 feet from a â what we now call a âgayâ â bar, was taken away, robbed and brutally beaten having his brained bashed in. Yes, he was murdered. If you must, you may read some of the details here
here.
While I do not parade this information, I do want you to understand that you, and others, are not arguing in the abstract. Innocent, very innocent, people, are harmed by attitudes such as yours.
I quote you: If it does not effect(sic) you then why let it bother you... Take care of your own and leave others alone.
this is what I am trying to do. And you?
SFAlice |
Granted I read this correctly, but you are saying I disagree with you? Yes it is terrible what occurred to your brother and I would wish that on no one. Let me ask you this and pleas I am not trying to diminish what happened to your brother but post a question to ask is this a similar situation. With that said what is the difference in someone being murdered for being a homosexual or being murdered for your religious beliefs " I before E"....? Is there a difference? |
The difference? I am a Christian. While I do not agree with the homosexual "lifestyle," I know and love some gays dearly. I have seen them discriminated against and "persecuted," JUST because they were gay. That makes me incredibly sad.
I do not know, personally, one single person who has been killed because of their religious beliefs (thinking modern world, here). Yes, I readily acknowledge that it is happening in other countries, but here in America, I can think of perhaps one that was killed. It could possibly be said that the polygamist sect that was recently in the news was being persecuted for their religious views. But, again, I would venture to say that very few, if any, on this board actually KNEW them.
Again, the difference? In America, one happens all too commonly, and the others are isolated, rare incidents? |
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07/11/2008 10:44:18 AM · #1236 |
Coronamv, you ask âis there a difference between being murdered for being a homosexual or for being murdered for your religious beliefs?
There are so many ways of dealing with this question that I will head straight to a very direct answer, and, in doing so, will continue to use your words:
âtake care of your own and leave others alone.â
You see, intolerant attitudes and hurtful ways do affect me, and I take care of my own. Thatâs why I am in this Thread.
Murder/persecution of the religious? Of course there is persecution, for many reasons:. Glaring examples? for religious reasons (The Holocaust) , for political reasons(The Stalinist purges), and we won't even go into those for ideological reasons.
All of it is abhorrent.
The one form of persecution I can, and will, protest is gay persecution.
I say again, as gently as possible:
It is important that all of us at least practice tolerance if we cannot practice acceptance.
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07/11/2008 10:52:36 AM · #1237 |
Well these sttistics are a few years old and I am still lokking for a more modern set. If anyone finds one please post it. thanks As far as you not hearing about religious motivated murder well we can thank the media for only reporting what sales.... Here is a chart from 1993 like I said a few year old.
Incidents Offenses
Total 7,587 8,987
Bias Motivation
Race: 4,732 5,786
Anti-White 1,471 1,814
Anti-Black 2,815 3,410
Anti-American Indian/ 27 39
Alaskan Native
Anti-Asian/Pacific 258 297
Islander
Anti-Multi-Racial 161 226
Ethnicity/National 697 845
Origin:
Anti-Hispanic 472 596
Anti-Other Ethnicity 225 249
Religion: 1,298 1,358
Anti-Jewish 1,143 1,197
Anti-Catholic 32 33
Anti-Protestant 30 30
Anti-Islamic 13 15
Anti-Other Religion 63 66
Anti-Multi-Religious 14 14
Anti-Atheism/ 3 3
Agnosticism/etc.
Sexual Orientation: 860 998
Homosexual
Anti-Male 615 699
Anti-Female 121 147
Anti-Homosexual 94 122
Anti-Heterosexual 28 28
Anti-Bisexual 2 2
Originally posted by karmat: Originally posted by coronamv: Originally posted by sfalice: [quote=coronamv] Yes your right No lady here... I will accept that you for the way you phrased that statement are a lady...not just a woman or female.. SO with that I will say we can agree that there are homosexuals and Heterosexuals and Asexuals and those that beleive in a god and those that don't beleive in anything. And in those we have various degrees of magnitued. Not all straight men are gay and not all gay men are straight. So if it does not effect you then why let it bother you. I say if you want to live your life in a way that makes you happy and does not influence or have any impact one anyone who wishes not to live their life that way then go for it. Just don't be a burden on society and I mean that to everyone.. Take care of your own and leave others alone..
Coronamv, I have read your post with awe. You will note I have bolded part of it.
Referring to my last post.
In the circumstances of birth, I got the âleft-handed gene.â
My only brother, my big brother, was gifted with the âgayâ gene.
Now, in my eighth decade, I have lived a long, and I hope a productive, life.
My brother lived until a few days after his 26th birthday, when he was abducted about 50 feet from a â what we now call a âgayâ â bar, was taken away, robbed and brutally beaten having his brained bashed in. Yes, he was murdered. If you must, you may read some of the details here
here.
While I do not parade this information, I do want you to understand that you, and others, are not arguing in the abstract. Innocent, very innocent, people, are harmed by attitudes such as yours.
I quote you: If it does not effect(sic) you then why let it bother you... Take care of your own and leave others alone.
this is what I am trying to do. And you?
SFAlice |
Granted I read this correctly, but you are saying I disagree with you? Yes it is terrible what occurred to your brother and I would wish that on no one. Let me ask you this and pleas I am not trying to diminish what happened to your brother but post a question to ask is this a similar situation. With that said what is the difference in someone being murdered for being a homosexual or being murdered for your religious beliefs " I before E"....? Is there a difference? |
The difference? I am a Christian. While I do not agree with the homosexual "lifestyle," I know and love some gays dearly. I have seen them discriminated against and "persecuted," JUST because they were gay. That makes me incredibly sad.
I do not know, personally, one single person who has been killed because of their religious beliefs (thinking modern world, here). Yes, I readily acknowledge that it is happening in other countries, but here in America, I can think of perhaps one that was killed. It could possibly be said that the polygamist sect that was recently in the news was being persecuted for their religious views. But, again, I would venture to say that very few, if any, on this board actually KNEW them.
Again, the difference? In America, one happens all too commonly, and the others are isolated, rare incidents? |
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07/11/2008 10:53:47 AM · #1238 |
sorry about that last post all the numbers got scrambled in the pasting. Here is the Link
Message edited by author 2008-07-11 10:54:26. |
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07/11/2008 11:20:39 AM · #1239 |
Originally posted by coronamv: ...I am still lokking for a more modern set. ... |
Try this link for U.S. stats from 2004 |
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07/11/2008 11:28:23 AM · #1240 |
Here ya go:
7,722 hate-crime incidents were reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation in 2006 -- an 8% increase from 2005.
2,640 were anti-black (up from 2,630 in 2005).
967 were anti-Jewish (up from 848 in 2005).
890 were anti-white (up from 828 in 2005).
747 were anti-male homosexual (up from 621 in 2005).
576 were anti-Hispanic (up from 522 in 2005).
156 were anti-Islamic (up from 128 in 2005).
163 were anti-female homosexual (up from 155 in 2005).
Source: Federal Bureau of Investigation
Consider this... of all the groups above, which potential targets would be most difficult to identify? The obvious outward characteristics of race and the dress codes/symbols of certain religions make it easy to find a victim to persecute. Not so with homosexuality, where a significant fraction of "members" prefer to remain anonymous. That same social stigma would tend to leave many crimes unreported, too. Note also the comparatively low number of potential targets in the overall population. Now consider the nature of those crimes... paint a swastika on a building and it's a hate crime against Jews, but when's the last time you heard of Jew-bashing? ALL hate crimes, from murder to simple discrimination, are a sad reflection on society, but the severity of hatred against homosexuals minding their own business is especially repulsive. |
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07/11/2008 11:31:13 AM · #1241 |
Originally posted by Prism: Try this link for U.S. stats from 2004 |
Interesting statistic- "Of those persons who committed a crime based upon their perceived biases, 60.6 percent were white, and 19.7 percent were black." |
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07/11/2008 11:34:10 AM · #1242 |
Interesting, could someone pull up the population count in 2005 and in 2006? I am always interested in that detail when there is an increase in crime. Specifically I would like to know if the population increased by less than 8%, near 8%, or above 8%. |
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07/11/2008 11:40:40 AM · #1243 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
As has been stated many times, there is nothing wrong with you having your privately held views. That's cool. The issue is why those views must be held by and/or impressed upon others. I don't plan or expect to convince you to see the world my way by any means. I have my view, you have yours. As long as your view does nothing to harm or injure anyone else, please continue to hold it as long as you believe in it, and you're more than welcome to express it, here and elsewhere. I would ask the same for those that hold a differing view. I believe the key is "no harm to others". Harm to self is a choice and not one that the government really needs to regulate unless harm to self, again, results in harm to others. All of the preceding OF COURSE assumes mentally competent legal adults. (I also don't understand why suicide is illegal - hard to prosecute when successful, yes?) |
Very well said.
Originally posted by karmat:
I do not know, personally, one single person who has been killed because of their religious beliefs (thinking modern world, here). Yes, I readily acknowledge that it is happening in other countries, but here in America, I can think of perhaps one that was killed. It could possibly be said that the polygamist sect that was recently in the news was being persecuted for their religious views. But, again, I would venture to say that very few, if any, on this board actually KNEW them. |
It pains me that you see more homosexual hatred and persecution than religious persecution. Actually, it pains me you see either.
In the statistics posted by Prism in the above post, I think it's fair to say (unless things have changed dramatically in the last four years) that they happen just about equally as often.
One of my Jewish friends was just recently assaulted verbally (by his manager no less) for his faith. I know numerous individuals (myself included) who were "managed out" of jobs for refusing to work on Sunday. In fact, I've even met a family whose hardware store was vandalized and threats left because they weren't open on Sunday. They were persecuted and hated because they inconvenienced an individual (or group of individuals) who felt didn't want to drive 10 minutes to purchase nails. It's sad and stupid but true.
I will conclude with one of the more rational views posted in the last page or so:
Originally posted by sfalice:
It is important that all of us at least practice tolerance if we cannot practice acceptance. |
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07/11/2008 11:46:42 AM · #1244 |
Originally posted by togtog: Interesting, could someone pull up the population count in 2005 and in 2006? |
From a 2006 demographics article- "the U.S. population grows by almost 1.8 million each year, or 0.6 percent. Adding nearly 1 million immigrants per year brings the annual growth rate up to 0.9 percent" |
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07/11/2008 11:46:54 AM · #1245 |
Originally posted by scalvert: Originally posted by Prism: Try this link for U.S. stats from 2004 |
Interesting statistic- "Of those persons who committed a crime based upon their perceived biases, 60.6 percent were white, and 19.7 percent were black." |
In fairness, it should be noted that according to This Article on Wikipedia in 2006, 68% of the population was comprised of non-Hispanic whites while 12.4% of the population was black.
In actuality, it seems that the per-capita crime rate is about equal. |
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07/11/2008 11:52:02 AM · #1246 |
So the population went up 1% and hate crimes 8%, that is... very disheartening. |
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07/11/2008 12:07:17 PM · #1247 |
Makes you wonder how evil that one percent was..... |
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07/11/2008 12:47:59 PM · #1248 |
This was touched on in another post, but I would like to hilight it.
What we need to see here to better evaluate the impact of these crimes on a population are not only the absolute number of victims in any category, but the ratio of victims to total population, the types of crimes being committed against each, and the estimated percents of these types that go unreported for each class. Let me put it this way:
If there were 500 religion-based hate crimes, and 500 homosexulaity-based hate crimes, you could at first glance think that religious folks have it just as hard as gays. However, if the population of religious people is, say, ten times the size of homosexuals (and conservatives would love to think that it's well, well above this) it suddenly becomes ten times as likely for a homosexual to be a victim of a hate crime as a religious person. Depressing! Going further, we then need to look at the nature of the crimes comitted against each class of victim, for which nobody has presented statistics. If religious folks are having swastikas painted on homes and church statues defiled, and homosexuals are getting beaten and murdered... hypothetically... who's facing the brunt of discrimination? The situation looks even more grim when you consider that a Jew is probably more comfortable reporting a swastika being sprayed than a lesbian is reporting being raped or a homosexual is reporting being beaten, which would tend to underrepresent the crimes comitted against each class. And I know that in many places in the US, it is a risky proposition to go to the police for many classes of people, in that you could be dragged through the mud, or worse, simply ignored.
This is the danger of general statistics. We do not have the precision needed to draw any meaningful conclusions from these numbers except the absolute number of incidents, offenses, victims, and offenders... not their impact on the classes effected. These numbers can't even be used to track increases and decreases in hate crime without comparing it to another set of numbers from another year.
Be very, very careful drawing any conclusions from them.
And coronamv, I am still waiting for you to recant your completely innacurate, easily disprovable claim that anal sex is illegal in most states. I find the ease with which you post false information, and your unwillingnes to acknowledge that you have misstated facts once they have been shown to be inaccurate, incredibly disturbing.
If I can do it, so can you. See my earlier claim that this country was founded by Diests.
Message edited by author 2008-07-11 19:49:23. |
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07/11/2008 01:19:49 PM · #1249 |
Originally posted by dponlyme: Originally posted by Mousie: Originally posted by dponlyme: I know that you don't understand the thinking. I know you don't agree.
...
I already know what you think of me. You base my entire worth as a human being on whether or not I agree with you. |
Wow. Just wow. This post saddens me and makes me feel absolutely hopeless. |
Sorry bout that. things aren't going well here in the 3d world and I guess I was having a bit of a pity party for myself inside my head. |
Would you be willing to back off of this position a bit, in hindsight? I don't think it's fair to any of the people who disagree with you on moral, practical, or logical grounds. Personally, I haven't referenced your character or worth a single time. If you are unwilling to do so, I'd suggest that you remove yourself from the debate, since you've stated your case and have made it clear you know what we think and how we feel, and if that's not good enough to change your mind, why even bother continuing?
I personally would much rather you stay here and open yourself to new ideas, instead of leaving with your fingers in your ears. It has been very encouraging to see you follow and study links to information even in opposition to your beliefs... as much as I may disagree with your stance, your approach in this regard has been commendable.
Message edited by author 2008-07-11 14:49:43. |
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07/11/2008 02:08:48 PM · #1250 |
Sometimes quotes can give us introspect, without anyone 'pointing fingers'. I do not believe EXACTLY what each of these state. Rather, they give me food for thought.
Enjoy. Discuss. Smile.
"I dreamt of heaven the other night, and the pearly gates swung wide. An angel with halo bright, ushered me inside. And there to my astonishment, stood folks I'd judged & labeled as quite "unfit," of "little worth," and "spiritually disabled." Indignant words rose to my lips, but NEVER were set free, for EVERY face showed stunned surprise, not ONE expected Me!" ~ unknown ~
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ~ Stephen Roberts
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"In order to learn, one must change one's mind." ~ Orson Scott Card
"Be kind; everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." ~ Plato
Message edited by author 2008-07-11 14:19:31. |
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